Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar
May 15, 2009 10:57 PM
by Augoeides-222
Hmmm,
The first world convention of "Umbrella Holders" ???
Regards,
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "MKR" <mkr777@gmail.com>
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 10:39:12 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar
Airfares to India is going down and there are direct flights to Chennai. Let
us all go and take advantage of the overshadowing!!!
mkr
On 5/15/09, Drpsionic@aol.com < Drpsionic@aol.com > wrote:
>
>
>
> I think it will be the next GC meeting. That should be fun.
>
> Chuck the Heretic
>
>
> In a message dated 5/15/2009 6:13:14 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> silva_cass@yahoo.com <silva_cass%40yahoo.com> writes:
>
> OK, OK, when and where is your next overshadowing being held!! lol
>
> Cass
>
> ________________________________
> From: " _Drpsionic@aol.Drp <_Drpsionic%40aol.Drp>_ (mailto:
> Drpsionic@aol.com <Drpsionic%40aol.com>) "
> < _Drpsionic@aol.Drp <_Drpsionic%40aol.Drp>_ (mailto: Drpsionic@aol.com <Drpsionic%40aol.com>)
> >
> To: _theos-talk@yahoogrotheos-t_ (mailto: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>)
>
> Sent: Thursday, 14 May, 2009 2:26:12 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar
>
> No, I passed. The World Teacher begins his work after the 75 year and I
> joined the TS in 1978.
>
> Chuck the Heretic
>
> In a message dated 5/13/2009 7:19:29 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> silva_cass@yahoo. com writes:
>
> Then you failed the world teacher test!
>
> Cass
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: "_Drpsionic@From: "_Drpsionic@<WBR>aFrom: "_Drps
> <_Drpsionic@_Drpsionic@<WBR>aol. Drp_ (m_Drpsionic>
> To: _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos-To: _theos-talk@ yahoog
> Sent: Wednesday, 13 May, 2009 2:39:13 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar
>
> 1949
>
> Chuck the Heretic
>
> In a message dated 5/12/2009 6:24:59 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> silva_cass@yahoo. com writes:
>
> What year were you born????? No falsifying the dates now!!
> Cass
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: "_Drpsionic@ From: "_Drpsionic@ <WBR>aFrom: "_Drps
> <_Drpsionic@ _Drpsionic@ <WBR>aol. Drp_ (m_Drpsionic>
> To: _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos- To: _theos-talk@ yahoog
> Sent: Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 2:37:23 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar
>
> Actually all us World Teachers have been inveterate pranksters come to
> give
> the world laughing gas for the soul.
>
> Chuck the Heretic
>
> In a message dated 5/11/2009 10:47:26 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> silva_cass@yahoo. com writes:
>
> lol. I don't expect they would all be world saviours - just messengers
> Cass
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: "_Augoeides- 222@Augoeides- 2_ (mailto:Augoeides- From: "_Augoeides-
>
>
> 2
> <_Augoeides- 222@Augoeides- 2_ (mailto:Augoeides- _Augoeides- 222@Au>
> To: _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos- To: _theos-talk@ ya
> Sent: Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 1:02:21 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar
>
> Cass,
> If a "world teacher" came at the end of every century in the form
> characterized we would have had 20 more Jesus's all lined up in serial
> order as
> "World Saviors" a label that I think did have some existance for a while
> during Besant - Leadbeater era. I never have seen any such thing in my
> coursing
> of histirical records. Who has the list?
>
> Regards,
> John
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cass Silva" <silva_cass@ silva_cass>
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 5:52:11 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
> Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar
>
> As you say K did not repudiate the WT project what he
> repudiated was his part in the project. I am not surprised that JK
> initially thought of himself as the new World Teacher operating out of
> Adyar - if
> he had run with that idea he would have been glorified and sanctified by
> theosophists - I admire and respect him for walking away and believe that
> his
> conscience
> would not allow him to take on a role he knew he was not fated for.
>
> If we are to rely on what Blavatsky gave us on a coming teacher we must
> also rely on her timeline.
>
> One could say that both Besant and Leadbeater would have been aware of
> this timeline yet still pre-empted the 'prophesy' of HPB. Blavatsky
> underlined
> her timeframe by stating that at the END OF EVERY CENTURY there will
> come......
>
> One could argue then that Krishnamurti was their choice (AB/CWL)for next
> world teacher and not necessarily the man predestined to take on this
> role.
>
> Blavatsky also pointed out that IF the theosophical society survived it
> would be the vehicle for the next
> world teacher.
>
> Besant's comment "Which of us is right only time can show." (12) came back
> to haunt her!
>
> From a dugpa's point of view what better way to fragment the TS than by
> introducing a 10 year old vagrant to the idea that he was born to be the
> next
> world teacher. Did they realise that that they and Leadbeater had picked
> the wrong candidate or was he the perfect candidate for a means to
> disenfranchise the TS? They succeeded - the TS is no longer the fortress
> of truth as
> it was in 1800 -but has disintegrated into a mish mash of psuedo religious
> and psuedo theosophical ideas.
>
> One must assume that if a world teacher comes at the end of every century
> - that he is now alive and
> kicking - and one can assume also that the TS has failed as he is not
> represented as a theosophist.
>
> Cheers Cass
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Govert Schuller < schuller@alpheus. org >
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 2:04:14 AM
> Subject: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar
>
> Dear Cass,
>
> I have to challenge the idea that K really repudiated the WT project.
>
> He did not. He gave it his own interpretation.
>
> There might be satisfaction for anti-neo-theosophic al Blavatskyites in
> the idea that K completely repudiated the AB-CWL additions/changes/
> manglings
> to the original Theosophical program. They think that K's criticisms are
> an additional vindication for their own anti-neo-theosophic al position.
>
> I say, not so fast, for K truly believed that he fulfilled the project
> even to the point of laying claim on Adyar and the TS as the intended
> instruments for the coming teacher.
>
> K said: "Mrs.Besant intended the land at Adyar to be meant for the
> teaching. The Theosophical Society has failed, the original purpose is
> destroyed."
>
> I analyzed the statement in my paper on K, tying it back to HPB's prophecy
> of the 'torch-bearer of Truth.' (full analysis below)
>
> Govert
>
> =====
> Reinforcing this view is an interesting, and at first sight puzzling,
> remark Krishnamurti made about Annie Besant and the Theosophical Society
> during
> an equally interesting conversation in 1979 with his friends, Radha
> Burnier and Pupul Jayakar, while discussing Burnier's possible candidacy
> for the
> presidency of the Theosophical Society. "Mrs.Besant intended the land at
> Adyar [the T.S. international headquarters] to be meant for the teaching.
> The
> Theosophical Society has failed, the original purpose is destroyed." (9)
> This remark contains many assumptions and finds its proper context in
> Besant's understanding of the mission of the Theosophical Society and the
> role of
> Krishnamurti therein. Annie Besant thought she was fulfilling a mission of
> the Theosophical Society, which was not stated as one of its official
> objectives, but was given to it by Helena P. Blavatsky--one of the
> founders of
> the Theosophical Society and the society's main source of ideas--when
> she, at the close of her life, announced the coming of a "torch-bearer of
> Truth" for the later part of the twentieth century. The mission of the
> Theosophical Society, according to Blavatsky, was to prepare the way for
> this
> "new leader" and prepare "the minds of men....for his message." At his
> arrival the Theosophical Society would be available to him to remove the
> "merely
> mechanical, material obstacles and difficulties from his path." Indicating
> the possibility of a glorious long-term goal of this plan, she states that
> if "the Theosophical Society survives and lives true to its
> mission...earth will be a heaven in the twenty-first century." (10) When
> Besant was
> challenged about her involvement in the Order of the Star and her speaking
> of
> "the T.S. as being the Herald of the coming Teacher," (11) she defended
> herself by referring explicitly to Blavatsky's view about the future
> mission of
> the Theosophical Society: "My crime is that I share it, and do what
> my poor powers permit in preparing the minds of men for that coming."
> Besant wrote that the only difference between herself and Blavatsky
> regarding
> the coming of "the next great Teacher" was that "she put that event
> perhaps
> half a century later than I do. Which of us is right only time can show."
> (12)
>
> I think it is reasonable to state that the particulars of Blavatsky's and
> Besant's views were picked up by Krishnamurti during his formative years.
> He might even have read Blavatsky's statement referred to above. If so,
> this
> might provide the ground to put Krishnamurti' s remark in historical
> perspective, and to explain the underlying structural similarity between
> his
> remark and Blavatsky's vision. With this in mind a reconstructed reading
> of
> Krishnamurti' s statement would result in the following: "Mrs.Besant [and
> Blavatsky] intended [subscribed to the view that] the land at Adyar [the
> Theosophical Society] to be meant [to be available] for the teaching [for
> the
> teacher]. The Theosophical Society has failed [did not to cooperate], the
> original purpose [the mission of the Theosophical Society to herald and
> aid
> the teacher] is destroyed [has not been fulfilled]." The point of this
> digression is to show that implicit in this remark is the self-perception
> of Krishnamurti as the teacher, who was expected and did come, but found
> the Theosophical Society not cooperative.
>
> =====
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Cass Silva
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 10:13 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the
> Messiah Craze?
>
> Quite right Govert, the TS was born in chaos and continues on this same
> path. HPB told us that her mission was to bring the ancient truths to the
> western world and to attempt to stem the spiritual materialism promulgated
> by the
> roman church and its offshoots.
>
> As this was addressed to a western audience, it would require western
> spokespeople
> to transmit this knowledge - once the knowledge was given it then appeared
> that
> Sinnett and others thought they were more knowledgeable than their
> teachers. I
> have heard that the more one learns the stronger the ego becomes - and
> this is one
> of the challenges or tests of a chela.
>
> HPB unlike Sinnett et al she took those teachings to heart and never
> waivered or
> challenged what was given to her by those she considered far more
> knowledgeable
> than herself on both spiritual and social questions.
>
> Her dissention was mainly against outsiders - but since her demise the
> dissention
> has come from insiders - who, in my opinion, distorted the knowledge for
> their
> own quodos to the point of making Annie Besant an incarnate godhead.
>
> AB and CWL would have been familiar with the teachings on Kali Yuga and
> would
> have known that Kalki Avatar would not appear before a million or so years
> - so
> either they promoted Krishnamurti as a minor avatar they had no reason to
> claim
> a messiah state for him. As the master said, AB was blinded by her own
> imagination
> and CWL was just the fellow to bring this imaginative fairytale into
> reality. JK, himself,
> recognized this as nonsense and left their mayavic dreams to its founders.
>
> I am not convinced that Krishnamurti was overshadowed by Maitreya, but
> perhaps
> was overshadowed by his own daimon.?
>
> Cass
>
> Cass
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Govert Schuller <schuller@alpheus. org>
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Saturday, 9 May, 2009 12:14:38 AM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the
> Messiah Craze?
>
> Cass,
>
> You say the TS was already in a state of confusion when taken over by AB &
>
>
> CWL or because of them?
>
> The outcome of one's speculations about the motives of AB & CWL for doing
> the WT project all depend on how one would regard the project in the first
> place. If you don't think it was genuine, then indeed you have to wonder
> why they were doing it. If you think it was genuine, then a whole
> different
> view of their motivations is possible.
>
> BTW, it could be argued that the TS was from the beginning in a state of
> confusion and was badgered by crisis after crisis.
>
> Govert
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Cass Silva
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 8:59 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the
> Messiah Craze?
>
> I disagree Govert, the TS was in a state of confusion when taken over
> by Besant and Leadbeater, I believe, they believed, that a World Teacher
> would bring the TS back to stability and would increase membership.
> She was ready to leave the TS and join Krishnamurti - what does that
> tell us?
>
> I was amused by AB turning the world teacher into a'gentleman' with a
> university education - by doing this she exposed him to a world and an
> awareness of a world outside of Adyar. I don't think he liked the suits
> as he got out of them as quickly as he could. lol
>
> Cass
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Govert Schuller <schuller@alpheus. org>
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, 5 May, 2009 1:07:59 AM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the
> Messiah Craze?
>
> Daniel,
>
> The WT project in my view was genuine, but had some 'messiah craze'
> elements, inevitably so given the state of the human psyche. One of the
> 'craze'
> elements was indeed the 'apostle affair,' which neither CWL nor K believed
> in. It came from Arundale's 'crazed' brain.
>
> To reason from a few 'craze' elements to the conclusion that it was only
> 'craze' is as fallacious as reasoning from the belief that the project was
> genuine and that therefore all elements were genuine.
>
> HPB's thoughts on messiahship are helpfull to be extremely cautious about
> such claims. CWL, AB and K lived up to it to a certain extent. In the end
> it was K who failed and dragged the TS into a state of confusion and shock
> it has not yet overcome.
>
> Govert
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: danielhcaldwell
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 11:21 AM
> Subject: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the
> Messiah Craze?
>
> Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the Messiah Craze?
> ++++++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +
>
> Annie Besant at her most eloquent best:
>
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
> "And now I have to give you, by command of the King, His message,
> and some of the messages of the Lord Maitreya and His great
> Brothers. . . what I am saying, as to matter of announcement, is
> definitely at the command of the King whom I serve.
>
> His taking possession of His chosen vehicle . . . will be soon.
> Then He will choose, as before, His twelve apostles . . . and their
> chief, the Lord Himself. He has already chosen them, but I have only
> the command to mention seven who have reached the stage of Arhatship...
>
> The first two, my brother Charles Leadbeater and myself, . . . C.
> Jinarajadasa, . . . George Arundale, Oscar Kollerstrom, . . . Rukmini
> Arundale....
>
> I left out one and must leave out another. Naturally, our
> Krishnaji [Jiddu Krishnamurti] was one, but he is to be the vehicle
> of the Lord. And the other is one who is very dear to all of us, as
> to the whole Brotherhood: Bishop James Wedgwood. He had borne his
> crucifixion before the seal of Arhatship was set upon him by his King.
> Those are the first seven of the twelve whom He has chosen, with
> Himself as the thirteenth. 'Ye call me Master and Lord, and ye do
> well, for so I am.'
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
>
> Daniel
> ____ http://hpb.cc__ ( http://hpb.cc_/ ) _ (_ http://hpb.cc__
> ( http://hpb.cc_/ ) /) _ (__ http://hpb.cc__ ( http://hpb.cc_/ ) _ (_
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