Re: Theos-World J Krishnamurti Videos on Youtube
May 13, 2009 11:39 AM
by Morten Nymann Olesen
Dear Govert
My views are:
Sorry about the late answer...I have kept it short.
Questions are easily asked, but answers aught to be understandable and helpful to Seekers reading them.
1-2) It certainly depends on who we are and on what level of consciousness we learn about it. I think you will agree with me on that.
According to J. Krishnamurti the overshadowing did not officially start until 1925 december or 1922-1925.
And in august 1927 he declared that it never would be shaken. ( I never said: I am the World-Teacher: but now that I feel I am one with the Beloved, I say it - not in order to impress my authority on you, nor to convince you of my greatness, nor of the greatness of the World-Teacher, nor even of the beauty of life, the simplicity of life - but merely to awaken the desire in your own hearts and in your own minds to seek out the Truth. if I say, and I will say, that I am one with the Beloved, It is because I feel and know it. I have found what I longed for, I have become united, so that henceforth there will be no separation, because my thoughts, my desires, my longings - those of the individual self - have been destroyed." http://norea.net/krishnamurti/truth.htm )
. Yet a few days later CWL and his camp of friends spread the romour that the overshadowing or the project had failed. Annie Besant was faithful to J. Krishnamurti, but went over her own head and declared in front of everone that J. Krishnamurti came with his 12 apostles, whom she named some of. Yet J.J. van der Leeuw and others said that J. Krishnamurti rejected that idea. In 1934 and later J. Krishnamurti's knowledge showed signs of "fatigue" or rather ignorance was admitted. In 1934 he admitted that he did not know anything about H. P. Blavatsky's teachings. Yet in 1928 he said he knew everything: (LET UNDERSTANDING BE THE LAW, august 1928 - http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/1928-let-understanding-be-the-law/jiddu-krishnamurti.php - Watch the last sentences.)
There are three or four fruits, which I find problematic in the period 1925-1934, and maybe he lost his memory earliere than that.
a) J. Krishnamurti disallowed Master-Chela relations and called Guru's a cructh already in 1934.
In 1926 he said something, which created confidence in the Masters:
"Every great Teacher has insisted upon this fact, that you must find the Truth for yourself; and that after having understood it, you must live according to that Truth. Then you are yourself the embodiment of that Truth, as well as the preacher, the signpost on the road to eternal Happiness."
http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/1926-the-kingdom-of-happiness/jiddu-krishnamurti-the-kingdom-of-happiness-09.php
In 1926 he said something, which created confidence in the Masters:
"There is nothing more wonderful in the world than living with great men, with great ideas, with men who are the principles themselves and not merely the outward shell of some inner reality."
http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/1926-the-kingdom-of-happiness/jiddu-krishnamurti-the-kingdom-of-happiness-07.php
J. Krishnamurti said in 1934 something in clear opposition to his own words in 1926:
"Thus the search for security must create fear, and from fear is born the desire for creeds and beliefs in order to ward off that fear. With your beliefs, your creeds, dogmas, and authorities, you push fear into the background. To ward off fear you seek guides, Masters, systems, because you hope that by following them, by obeying them, by imitating them you will have peace, you will have comfort. They are the tricksters who become priests, exploiters, preachers, mediators, swamis, and yogis." (june 1934)
http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teachings/view-text.php?tid=85&chid=4445&w=%22They+Are+The+Tricksters%22
This he said when CWL and Annie Besant had died physically.
And his dilemma from then on, was that people began to consider if HE himself was a trickster!
The author Cyril Scott wrote in 1935 about events in 1931:
"Krishnamurti: First of all you must understand what I mean by collective and organized work. You state that there is an occult brotherhood which organizes work for humanity for advancing the welfare of the world. To assume that there are those who have knowledge, who have realized Truth, and because of that realization use methods of which, as is said, very little is known, choosing special agents and messengers to do their work and inspiring worthy organizations-to me this assumption is based upon an illusion, leading to exploitation of man for his "good"....
--"Star Bulletin," September, 1931. "
"Unfortunately he has no proper methods since he took the Arhat initiation, and ceased to be the medium for the Lord Maitreya.(1) Better if he had retired from public life to meditate in seclusion, as Arhats did in bygone days."
"I'm a bit hazy about that Arhat initiation," I whispered to the man beside me.
"It's the one in which the Master withdraws all guidance from His pupil, who may have to negotiate the most difficult problems without being allowed to ask any questions." explained; "he has to rely entirely on his own judgment, and if he makes mistakes, must bear the consequences."
http://www.alpheus.org/html/source_materials/krishnamurti/truth_about_k.html
H. P. Blavatsky wrote, that walking the Path without a guide would prove dangeorus.
..."there are ten thousand chances against one that he will fail. "
(The Key to Theosophy, p. 21-22, 2. edition 1890)
http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/aKEY.htm
---
>From the above it seems that J. Krishnamurti already lost it in 1931, where he denounced the MAsters. And in 1926 he accpeted their eixstence and value. I find that a fair conclusion to arrive at from the above.
Another thing is that H. P. Blavatsky was - as I see it - clearly stating the truth. Masters aught not to be avoided, but used in a wise manner. We can never walk alone. And if we seek to do it, we most often will fail!
That is what I myself have learned.
b) The conflict of the CWL+Besant Belief-system and Ceremonials versus Self-confidence and Knowledge.
Master KH wrote to Mrs. Besant:
"No one has a right to claim authority over a pupil or his conscience. Ask him not what he believes... The crest wave of intellectual advancement must be taken hold of and guided into spirituality. It cannot be forced into beliefs and emotional worship."
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/lastkh.htm
Both CWL and Annie Besant failed in this respect. Yet, that failure are prehaps by some considered a necessity, so to make people understand, that the truth aught to be heard about it through J. Krishnamurti. And later through others inside and outside the theosophical groups.
J. Krishnamurti said:
"You will never be able to force people, whatever authority, whatever dread, whatever threats of damnation you may use. That age is past; this is an age of revolution and of turmoil; there is a desire to know everything for oneself, and because you have not that desire inside you, you are being kept in the world of limitation. You think you have found, but you have not found. Because you have been made certain in your little uncertainties, you think you can convert the world." ( The Order of the Star, August 2,1927.)
http://norea.net/krishnamurti/truth.htm
I Have Struggled to Be Free (1927):
All this life, and especially during the last few months, I have struggled to be free -- of my friends, my books, my associations. You must struggle for the same freedom. (Eerde 30Jun27; reported in Mary Lutyens, The Years of Awakening p.244)
Yet he was not without books in 1926 at his Erde talks!!!
"I was reading the Bible yesterday and came to a phrase -"My son, if thou comest to serve God, prepare thy soul for temptation." Your soul, your body, everything, must be alive for temptation of the right kind, so that it gives you delight to serve and to give. That is why you must be cultured. I cannot possibly imagine a real giant being uncultured, uncouth. I do not speak of a giant in body, but of a giant in emotions and in mind."
http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/1926-the-kingdom-of-happiness/jiddu-krishnamurti-the-kingdom-of-happiness-02.php
H. P. Blavatsky wrote:
"And, as on their part, true Theosophists will never accept either a Christ made Flesh, according to the Roman dogma, or an anthropomorphic God, still less a "Shepherd" in the person of a Pope, it is not they who will move towards "the Mountain of Salvation"; they will wait till the Roman Mohammed takes the trouble of starting on the road which leads to Meru.* Will that ever take place? I leave that to the reader to judge for himself."
(* The sacred mountain, abode of the Devas.-Editor, Le Lotus. )
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v8/y1887_048.htm
I conclude, that both J. Krishnamurti, CWL and Annie Besant was guitlty in allowing the Saviour in the Flesh to go far and wide within the TS camp. And that teaching was in opposition to the theosophical teachings. Even when J. Krishnamurti said the following in 1926:
"I have drunk at the source, and I long to bring every one of you to it; and when you have delighted and sported in the shades of Eternity, you will want to bring others to it also." - ONE begin to feel, that one wants to have ones entrance-fees or money used to travel there returned.
So some of the speeches have this flavour of Self-aggrandisement
c)
J. Krishnamurti appearntly did not reject comparative studying of books in his teachings since he quote from the Bible in 1926, as mentioned in the above. But already in 1927, the books were rejected as useless!
d)
The idea given by H. P. Blavatsky to end the strifes between worlds religions, nations and sects (The Key to Theosophy, p. 2-3, 2. edition 1890) was important in 1889.
In 1926, we have J. Krishnamurti agreeing upon such an idea - although he seemed to make a division between the listeners and the world as a whole.
THE VOICE OF INTUITION, 1926
"What does it matter to which religion you belong, what glories you bear, so long as you feel really happy and can keep your goal absolutely clear and undimmed? Imagine for the moment the Lord Buddha and His disciples. They were the great exceptions of their Age. They all had one Master, one goal, one ideal, and that was He. And yet they had, every one of them, the spark of genius; they were not mediocre, because they followed Him who was the exception, the flower of humanity, and such examples must we all become."
http://www.jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/1926-the-kingdom-of-happiness/jiddu-krishnamurti-the-kingdom-of-happiness-01.php
3)
It was a failure. All physical savouirs in the flesh are failures in this timeperiod. Yet to some persons and saviours are needed. And some persons they will worship the real one when it/he´/she arrives or arrived, and others will even worship the devil because the need worshipping so badly before they learn the lesson.
It was not a failure. No experiment is a fiasco as we say. Some persons learned from J. Krishnamurti's teachings.
Some of the words given in 1925-1927 are very strong in their nergy. And my akasha reading of some of them events from that period clearly indicates that a very strong energy or entity was present at that time.
It was a failure as pictured by Sir Thomas in Cyril Scott's trilogy. A failure because he dissolved too much and forgot to teach, something people were able to understand. And started to generate too much teaching, on the non-duality and time-transcended issues, which only Innitiated will understand - and that without relating his teachings on a level which beginners could understand. The difference here is, that Blavatsky near never forgot about this. And that is and was why Blavatsky teachings was understood much better by beginner Seekers - Take her articles and The Key to Theosophy. The beginners who went through the 1925-1931 period or later got lost in 1929 or so, and the spiritual hearts was in fact broken in some of them - and time wasted.
4) In part J. Krishnamurti tought something important. But not anything new at all. And that he said more than one time and one can quote him on that. - J. Krishnamurti for instance taught about the limitations of organisations - yet he undervalued the importance and value they had - and their necessity to beginner Seekers, before they will be able to reach membership of the Great Lodge. A Lodge which J. Krishnamurti did not reject the existence of in 1926, but which he certainly rejected later on. - In 1931 as mentioned in the Star Bulletin quote in the above.
But J. Krishnamurti's teaching on organisations limitations was already taught about as early as 12 century.
Take this article I posted at Theos-talk. It has been rewritten from a tect from the 12th century.
I wrote:"Quite obviously the semi-blind among the people, during their
'waiting-period', will try to work out their own interpretation. They may,
as have been done in the past, write books to explain what they have
learned. This is the danger-point, because when a man/woman is accepted as,
say, a philosopher (of wisdom) because she/he has written a book explaining
a philosophy, he/she will not readily accept, that she/he only have been
'fumbling'. He/She has quite possibly become a prisoner of his/hers lower
self. The self-conceit of the man/woman is now bound up with his/hers
'creation', the book or the method, which he/she has used to organise the
fragments, which he/she has. He/she is probably or possibly lost - for the
cause.
In order to break through this shell of accretions and fossilisations,
the - second teacher - will tend to act in a different, perhaps in a certain
dramatically different manner, from the original one. This could happen, to
break the 'idols', which have been formed out of the thoughts, which were
originally given.
So very important: The use of ideas is to shape a man or woman, not to
support a system - which is viewed in a limited manner. This is one way in
which the Wisdom Tradition is 'living', and not just the perpetuations of
ideas and movements. This seems important to understand and know about."
http://theosophy.com/theos-talk/200403/tt00448.html
--- M. Sufilight comments ---Just one more time:---So very important:
- - - The use of ideas is to shape a man or woman, not to
support a system - which is viewed in a limited manner. This is one way in
which the Wisdom Tradition is 'living', and not just the perpetuations of
ideas and movements. This seems important to understand and know about. - - -
If one thought less about the words given Blavatsky or TS or movement in
dead-letter sense.
And much more about the above, then I think that you would understand the transition-periods of the below In a quite different light.
* HPB ---> Annie Besant +CWL - and
* Annie Besant +CWL ---> J. Krishnamurti - and
* HPB ---> J. Krishnamurti
Maybe the transitions was foreseen by the Masters and various adjustments sought as the transitions unfolded?
* Maybe TS went from a non-Bhakti teaching to a at least somewhat blind Bhakti teaching?
* And Maybe TS after that went from a at least somewhat blind Bhakti teaching organisation to a non-belief teachings?
* Maybe TS as a whole in the long transition went from a organisation to a non-organisation?
It might also be important to consider, that In the timeperiod of 1875-1934 - the western part of the planet and other parts of it went through a greater reform. A far greater number of humans got educated through a great school reform, which happened in that timeperiod. Because of that the theosophical audience and listners was dramatically changed. That aught to be taken into account. And technology advanced so travelling long distances was much easier than before. And other issues.
And today, we are changed even more.
For the worse? Or the better?
I will let the readers decide themselves!
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Govert Schuller
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World J Krishnamurti Videos on Youtube
Ok, Morten, four simple answers to your questions:
1) Q: If we assume that J. Krishnamurti was overshadowed for a given period of time
somewhere between 1909-1929, what are the fruits we can learn from that overshadowing?
K wrote many inspiring pieces of devotional prose, mystical poetry, descriptions of occult experiences, and many simple, beautiful teachings on wisdom and life. His "At the Feet of the Masters" is a classic. His talks and writings between 1925 and 1927 are especially profound and you just have to read them, regardless of your evaluation of his metaphysical status, merely in the spirit of the second TS object. The complete early works are still to be published, so there is still much missing.
2) Q: What did he - actually - say or teach the number of times he was overshadowed?
It will take some research to collect the speeches he gave in the 'overshadowed' period and submit them to a structural analysis. Safest to say is that his little booklet "The Kingdom of Happiness" is from that period and at least expresses the main themes he was working on.
http://norea.net/krishnamurti/kingdom.htm
3) Q: Was it a complete failure, and ....
That all depends and your metaphysical criteria. I think the WT project failed, but at the same time some great teachings were given. Even his later mature philosophy has much that is quite amazing, but you have to be well rooted in Theosophy to get a handle on it and not get deceived by his shaky logic, charisma and anti-esoteric jabs.
4) Q: ... was the real teaching forwarded by J. Krishnamurti much later?
Later than 1934, the year he said he did not know about HPB's teachings?
Some think so, especially some in the Krishnamurti camp who think that only by approximately that year he had divested himself of all the Theosophical jargon and issues and was free to develop a existential, non-esoteric teaching of liberation. Some Theosophists will give him lee-way by saying that K was a mystic and not an occultist, therefore he should or could be excused from knowing no HPB. Others would stress that K was very aware of the whole meta-empirical realm of masteres, devas and healing energies, but just did not think it important to expound upon. His focus was on the psycho-spiritual quality of your life and not on the depth of your understanding of esoteric-occult teachings.
Hope this helps
Govert
----- Original Message -----
From: Morten Nymann Olesen
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World J Krishnamurti Videos on Youtube
Allright
Four simple questions on J. Krishnamurti:
If we assume that J. Krishnamurti was overshadowed for a given period of time
somewhere between 1909-1929, what are the fruits we can learn from that overshadowing?
What did he - actually - say or teach the number of times he was overshadowed?
Was it a complete failure, and was the real teaching forwarded by J. Krishnamurti much later?
Later than 1934, the year he said he did not know about HPB's teachings?
---
J. Krishnamurti lack of knowledge about H. P. Blavatsky and theosophy given by the Masters.
http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teachings/view-text.php?tid=75&chid=4435&w=Blavatsky
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Govert Schuller
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 4:00 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World J Krishnamurti Videos on Youtube
Dear Morten,
If you phrase your questions in a more succinct way I might give it a try to answer them, not on behalf of Adyar TS, but as far as I understand the issues you think are out there still standing.
Govert
----- Original Message -----
From: Morten Nymann Olesen
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World J Krishnamurti Videos on Youtube
Dear Anand
My views are:
Allright, there you are, - J. Krishnamurti said:
1.
G. Hodson said:
"These phenomena occurred during some few successive years, the events being so
marked that Krishnamurti himself thereafter changed the Objects of the Order of the
Star in the East from, in effect, "To prepare for the coming of the Lord" to "To serve
the World Teacher now that He is in our midst." I, myself, more than once heard
Krishnamurti affirm that the great Teacher was now here and that the "Coming" had
actually occurred."
http://www.alpheus.org/html/articles/theosophy/oncwl2.html
Can we have BOTH facimile versions of "the Order of the Star in the East" shown online?
Someone at Adyar or London has one - if I should rely on my clairvoyance.
2.
"I know that which I am; I know my purpose in life because I am Life itself without name, without limitation. And because I am Life I would urge you to worship that Life, not in this form that is Krishnamurti but the Life which dwells in each one of you. Put aside all the paraphernalia of beliefs, religions and ceremonies, and you will find the Truth."
http://jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/1928-let-understanding-be-the-law/jiddu-krishnamurti-let-understanding-be-the-law-07.php
3.
"Krishnamurti wrote in 1927:
"I know my destiny and my work. I know with certainty and knowledge of my own, that I am blending into the consciousness of the one Teacher and that He will completely fill me."
Letter from Krishnamurti to Leadbeater February 9, 1927, quoted in Lutyens, Krishnamurti: The Years of Awakening, p. 241.
_______________ Extra info written before here at Theos-talk _____________
J. Krishnamurti are not allowing anyone to be guided by a Guru or a spiritual guide.
The consecuence of such a teaching are pictured very well by H. P. Blavatsky in the below quote. J. Krishnamurtis teachings are therefore problematic to use, when the reject this idea given by H. P. Blavatsky.
When TS Adyar will come forward and explain how they relate to this and how J. Krishnamurtis teachings can be said to wise in this respect, we might listen. - Else we will consdier TS Adyar as a strange, if not even a dangerous activity.
H. P. Blavatsky wrote in The Key to Theosophy, p. 25:
"ENQUIRER. But why could not a man of well-balanced mind and singleness of purpose, one, say, of indomitable energy and perseverance, become an Occultist and even an Adept if he works alone?
THEOSOPHIST. He may; but there are ten thousand chances against one that he will fail. For one reason out of many others, no books on Occultism or Theurgy exist in our day which give out the secrets of alchemy or mediaeval Theosophy in plain language. All are symbolical or in parables; and as the key to these has been lost for ages in the West, how can a man learn the correct meaning of what he is reading and studying? Therein lies the greatest danger, one that leads to unconscious black magic or the most helpless mediumship. He who has not an Initiate for a master had better leave the dangerous study alone. Look around you and observe. While two-thirds of civilized society ridicule the mere notion that there is anything in Theosophy, Occultism, Spiritualism, or in the Kabala, the other third is composed of the most heterogeneous and opposite"
http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/aKEY.htm
And we have Theosophist Magazine September 1932-December 1932
"I presume the T.S. accepts it as its duty to promulgate Theosophy and not to spread or air of other philosophies; if the former why does it undertake propaganda for the teachings of Krishnamurti? If the latter, why call itself the Theosophical Society? This is sailing under false colours and is dishonest to humanity. The facts are, that one cannot go to any T.S. Lodge meeting without hearing about, seeing the books of Krishnamurti. What service is that to mankind- what service is rendered to Theosophy? It can only do one thing and that is to help fog and cloud the student and help to make his efforts to learn Theosophy a hundred times more difficult. Kirshnamurti himself is absolutely honest....
In the Star Bulletin August 1931, Page 7 - J. Krishnamurti says:
" So I have made it prefectly clear that what is generally believed by the Christian, the Theosophist, the Hindu, the Buddhist to be Truth, has nothing in common with what I say"
http://books.google.com/books?id=Tq8aS-ZDu_IC&pg=RA2-PA379&lpg=RA2-PA379&dq=%22Star+Bulletin%22+1931+Krishnamurti&source=web&ots=StjngNWK0k&sig=yBGu2frkW1eUSqpsDYFDftGSKe4#PRA2-PA379,M1
And not to talk about the requirements of people being members of the Order of the Star in the East
if they wanted TS membership. No wonder a number of Seekers broke with the TS back in the old days.
- - -
The leadership in TS Adyar have for years remianed silent about these issues.
No real effort to show that truth about the acivtities and explaining the confusion
a great number of people felt and feel today have been dealt with in an compassionate manner.
And we all wonder why?
__________
I have asked more than one TS Adyar member on the above.
The answer is silence. And silence speaks!
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Anand
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 6:00 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World J Krishnamurti Videos on Youtube
Prof. Catherine Wessinger says
"He (J.Krishnamurti) told a friend I don't give a damn about World Teacher and he wondered why they had picked him."
and
"He made it clear that he was not the world teacher, not the messiah"
It appears that Theosophists are wrongly calling J. Krishnamurti World Teacher, when Krishnamurti himself made it clear that he was not the World Teacher.
Anand Gholap
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