Theos-Talk Archives (May 2009 Message tt00432)

Dear Cass,

No capito: "K did not repudiate the WT project what he repudiated was his part in the project." ???

As I see it, he repudiated both illigitimate parts (the apostles, untrue initiations) and ligitimate parts (theosophy, true initiations, Maitreya's overshadowing) of the WT project, but he certainly did not repudiate his own central part/role in it.

I belief it was a genuine project and K was 'fated' to be the linchpin. He believed that himself (except for some doubts during adolesence) and never wavered from that conviction, eventhough he threw out the baby with the bathwater. 

I'm with you in how this all relates in many different possible ways to HPB's prophecy. Much depends on the answers to the above question.

Govert


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cass Silva 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 8:52 PM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar





  As you say K did not repudiate the WT project what he
  repudiated was his part in the project.  I am not surprised that JK initially thought of himself as the new World Teacher operating out of Adyar - if he had run with that idea he would have been glorified and sanctified by theosophists - I admire and respect him for walking away and believe that his conscience
  would not allow him to take on a role he knew he was not fated for.

  If we are to rely on what Blavatsky gave us on a coming teacher we must also rely on her timeline.

  One could say that both Besant and Leadbeater would have been aware of this timeline yet still pre-empted the 'prophesy' of HPB.  Blavatsky underlined her timeframe by stating that at the END OF EVERY CENTURY there will come......

  One could argue then that Krishnamurti was their choice (AB/CWL)for next world teacher and not necessarily the man predestined to take on this role.

  Blavatsky also pointed out that IF the theosophical society survived it would be the vehicle for the next
  world teacher.

  Besant's comment "Which of us is right only time can show." (12) came back to haunt her!

  From a dugpa's point of view what better way to fragment the TS than by introducing a 10 year old vagrant to the idea that he was born to be the next world teacher.  Did they realise that that they and Leadbeater had picked the wrong candidate or was he the perfect candidate for a means to disenfranchise the TS?  They succeeded - the TS is no longer the fortress of truth as it was in 1800 -but has disintegrated into a mish mash of psuedo religious and psuedo theosophical ideas.  

  One must assume that if a world teacher comes at the end of every century - that he is now alive and
  kicking - and one can assume also that the TS has failed as he is not represented as a theosophist.

  Cheers Cass

  ________________________________
  From: Govert Schuller <schuller@alpheus.org>
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, 12 May, 2009 2:04:14 AM
  Subject: Theos-World K the Messiah claims Adyar

  Dear Cass,

  I have to challenge the idea that K really repudiated the WT project. 

  He did not. He gave it his own interpretation.

  There might be satisfaction for anti-neo-theosophic al Blavatskyites in the idea that K completely repudiated the AB-CWL additions/changes/ manglings to the original Theosophical program. They think that K's criticisms are an additional vindication for their own anti-neo-theosophic al position. 

  I say, not so fast, for K truly believed that he fulfilled the project even to the point of laying claim on Adyar and the TS as the intended instruments for the coming teacher. 

  K said: "Mrs.Besant intended the land at Adyar to be meant for the teaching. The Theosophical Society has failed, the original purpose is destroyed."

  I analyzed the statement in my paper on K, tying it back to HPB's prophecy of the 'torch-bearer of Truth.' (full analysis below)

  Govert

  =====
  Reinforcing this view is an interesting, and at first sight puzzling, remark Krishnamurti made about Annie Besant and the Theosophical Society during an equally interesting conversation in 1979 with his friends, Radha Burnier and Pupul Jayakar, while discussing Burnier's possible candidacy for the presidency of the Theosophical Society. "Mrs.Besant intended the land at Adyar [the T.S. international headquarters] to be meant for the teaching. The Theosophical Society has failed, the original purpose is destroyed." (9) This remark contains many assumptions and finds its proper context in Besant's understanding of the mission of the Theosophical Society and the role of Krishnamurti therein. Annie Besant thought she was fulfilling a mission of the Theosophical Society, which was not stated as one of its official objectives, but was given to it by Helena P. Blavatsky--one of the founders of the Theosophical Society and the society's main source of ideas--when
  she, at the close of her life, announced the coming of a "torch-bearer of Truth" for the later part of the twentieth century. The mission of the Theosophical Society, according to Blavatsky, was to prepare the way for this "new leader" and prepare "the minds of men....for his message." At his arrival the Theosophical Society would be available to him to remove the "merely mechanical, material obstacles and difficulties from his path." Indicating the possibility of a glorious long-term goal of this plan, she states that if "the Theosophical Society survives and lives true to its mission...earth will be a heaven in the twenty-first century." (10) When Besant was challenged about her involvement in the Order of the Star and her speaking of "the T.S. as being the Herald of the coming Teacher," (11) she defended herself by referring explicitly to Blavatsky's view about the future mission of the Theosophical Society: "My crime is that I share it, and do what
  my poor powers permit in preparing the minds of men for that coming." Besant wrote that the only difference between herself and Blavatsky regarding the coming of "the next great Teacher" was that "she put that event perhaps half a century later than I do. Which of us is right only time can show." (12)

  I think it is reasonable to state that the particulars of Blavatsky's and Besant's views were picked up by Krishnamurti during his formative years. He might even have read Blavatsky's statement referred to above. If so, this might provide the ground to put Krishnamurti' s remark in historical perspective, and to explain the underlying structural similarity between his remark and Blavatsky's vision. With this in mind a reconstructed reading of Krishnamurti' s statement would result in the following: "Mrs.Besant [and Blavatsky] intended [subscribed to the view that] the land at Adyar [the Theosophical Society] to be meant [to be available] for the teaching [for the teacher]. The Theosophical Society has failed [did not to cooperate], the original purpose [the mission of the Theosophical Society to herald and aid the teacher] is destroyed [has not been fulfilled]." The point of this digression is to show that implicit in this remark is the self-perception
  of Krishnamurti as the teacher, who was expected and did come, but found the Theosophical Society not cooperative. 

  =====

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cass Silva 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
  Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 10:13 PM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the Messiah Craze?

  Quite right Govert, the TS was born in chaos and continues on this same
  path. HPB told us that her mission was to bring the ancient truths to the
  western world and to attempt to stem the spiritual materialism promulgated by the
  roman church and its offshoots.

  As this was addressed to a western audience, it would require western spokespeople
  to transmit this knowledge - once the knowledge was given it then appeared that 
  Sinnett and others thought they were more knowledgeable than their teachers. I
  have heard that the more one learns the stronger the ego becomes - and this is one
  of the challenges or tests of a chela.

  HPB unlike Sinnett et al she took those teachings to heart and never waivered or 
  challenged what was given to her by those she considered far more knowledgeable
  than herself on both spiritual and social questions.

  Her dissention was mainly against outsiders - but since her demise the dissention
  has come from insiders - who, in my opinion, distorted the knowledge for their
  own quodos to the point of making Annie Besant an incarnate godhead.

  AB and CWL would have been familiar with the teachings on Kali Yuga and would
  have known that Kalki Avatar would not appear before a million or so years - so
  either they promoted Krishnamurti as a minor avatar they had no reason to claim
  a messiah state for him. As the master said, AB was blinded by her own imagination
  and CWL was just the fellow to bring this imaginative fairytale into reality. JK, himself,
  recognized this as nonsense and left their mayavic dreams to its founders.

  I am not convinced that Krishnamurti was overshadowed by Maitreya, but perhaps
  was overshadowed by his own daimon.?

  Cass

  Cass

  ____________ _________ _________ __
  From: Govert Schuller <schuller@alpheus. org>
  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
  Sent: Saturday, 9 May, 2009 12:14:38 AM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the Messiah Craze?

  Cass,

  You say the TS was already in a state of confusion when taken over by AB & CWL or because of them?

  The outcome of one's speculations about the motives of AB & CWL for doing the WT project all depend on how one would regard the project in the first place. If you don't think it was genuine, then indeed you have to wonder why they were doing it. If you think it was genuine, then a whole different view of their motivations is possible. 

  BTW, it could be argued that the TS was from the beginning in a state of confusion and was badgered by crisis after crisis. 

  Govert 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cass Silva 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
  Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 8:59 PM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the Messiah Craze?

  I disagree Govert, the TS was in a state of confusion when taken over
  by Besant and Leadbeater, I believe, they believed, that a World Teacher
  would bring the TS back to stability and would increase membership.
  She was ready to leave the TS and join Krishnamurti - what does that 
  tell us? 

  I was amused by AB turning the world teacher into a'gentleman' with a
  university education - by doing this she exposed him to a world and an
  awareness of a world outside of Adyar. I don't think he liked the suits
  as he got out of them as quickly as he could. lol

  Cass 

  ____________ _________ _________ __
  From: Govert Schuller <schuller@alpheus. org>
  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
  Sent: Tuesday, 5 May, 2009 1:07:59 AM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the Messiah Craze?

  Daniel,

  The WT project in my view was genuine, but had some 'messiah craze' elements, inevitably so given the state of the human psyche. One of the 'craze' elements was indeed the 'apostle affair,' which neither CWL nor K believed in. It came from Arundale's 'crazed' brain. 

  To reason from a few 'craze' elements to the conclusion that it was only 'craze' is as fallacious as reasoning from the belief that the project was genuine and that therefore all elements were genuine. 

  HPB's thoughts on messiahship are helpfull to be extremely cautious about such claims. CWL, AB and K lived up to it to a certain extent. In the end it was K who failed and dragged the TS into a state of confusion and shock it has not yet overcome. 

  Govert

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: danielhcaldwell 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
  Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 11:21 AM
  Subject: Theos-World Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the Messiah Craze?

  Annie Besant on Her Messiah: Was this Part of the Messiah Craze? 
  ++++++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +++++++++ +

  Annie Besant at her most eloquent best:

  ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
  "And now I have to give you, by command of the King, His message,
  and some of the messages of the Lord Maitreya and His great
  Brothers. . . what I am saying, as to matter of announcement, is
  definitely at the command of the King whom I serve.

  His taking possession of His chosen vehicle . . . will be soon.
  Then He will choose, as before, His twelve apostles . . . and their
  chief, the Lord Himself. He has already chosen them, but I have only
  the command to mention seven who have reached the stage of Arhatship...

  The first two, my brother Charles Leadbeater and myself, . . . C.
  Jinarajadasa, . . . George Arundale, Oscar Kollerstrom, . . . Rukmini
  Arundale....

  I left out one and must leave out another. Naturally, our
  Krishnaji [Jiddu Krishnamurti] was one, but he is to be the vehicle
  of the Lord. And the other is one who is very dear to all of us, as
  to the whole Brotherhood: Bishop James Wedgwood. He had borne his
  crucifixion before the seal of Arhatship was set upon him by his King.
  Those are the first seven of the twelve whom He has chosen, with
  Himself as the thirteenth. 'Ye call me Master and Lord, and ye do
  well, for so I am.'
  ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -

  Daniel
  http://hpb.cc

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