Theos-Talk Archives (May 2009 Message tt00197)

Govert,

I have indicated in my posting where these quotes were published.

I leave it up to readers to look into the context, etc. if they think that any of that is relevant to an assessment of what Mr. Leadbeater and Mrs. Besant said.

I think what they are saying is pretty straightforward whatever the context.  If you think differently, then please explain.   The material is given to readers for their consideration and each reader will have to made their own judgement as to what this material means.

Daniel
http://hpb.cc

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Govert Schuller" <schuller@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Daniel,
> 
> I'm glad you're shocked with a smile.
> 
> Any claim by anybody regarding being connected to the Masters has to be scrutinized and easy generalizations should be resisted. 
> 
> This means they have to be seen in their historical and social context, messages brought through have to evaluated by content, the history of the claimant considered, modes of connectedness differentiated, kinds of possible mistakes taken into consideration, and I don't know what more. 
> 
> Therefore I have to ask you if you could set these quotes by CWL and AB in context. When were they made, where published and made in what context?
> 
> Govert
> 
>  
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: danielhcaldwell 
>   To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Monday, May 04, 2009 11:51 PM
>   Subject: Theos-World Annie Besant made mistakes??!! NO!! How can that be?????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   Govert, you write:
> 
>   ------------------------------------------------------
>   The 'apostle affair' came from Arundale and AB made it public as she believed him to be connected to the Masters, which he was not. That was her mistake, and a pretty grave one, and big enough to have us reminded of KH's critique of her. In those days I think it was only K, CWL, Scott and Hodson who were connected.
>   ----------------------------------------------------------
> 
>   Are you saying Mrs. Besant could make mistakes...even grave mistakes?
> 
>   No, you can't mean it!!!! How could you doubt Mrs. Besant?????
> 
>   And you say above that CWL was "connected" to the Masters.
> 
>   Well, if that is really so, how can you doubt what Mr. Leadbeater says about Mrs. Besant and her own "connections" as well as his own "connections" to the Masters?. 
> 
>   Have you forgotten what he said about Mrs. Besant?
> 
>   In case you have, I reproduce below Mr. Leadbeater's words:
> 
>   --------------------------------------------------------
>   "What can I say to you of your President [Annie
>   Besant] that you do not know already? Her colossal
>   intellect, her unfailing wisdom, her unrivalled
>   eloquence, her splendid forgetfulness of self,
>   her untiring devotion of work for others - all
>   these are but a small part of her greatness;
>   they are on the surface, they may be seen by all,
>   they leap to the eyes. But there are other qualities,
>   other powers, of which you cannot know, because they
>   pertain to the secrets of Initiation. She is a
>   pupil of our Masters; from the fount of Their
>   archaic wisdom she derives her own, the plans which
>   she is carrying out are Their plans for the welfare
>   of the world. THINK THEREFORE, HOW GREAT AN
>   HONOUR IT IS FOR YOU that you should be permitted
>   to work under her, for in doing so you are virtually
>   working under Them. THINK HOW WATCHFUL YOU SHOULD
>   BE TO MISS NO HINT WHICH FALLS FROM HER LIPS, to carry
>   out EXACTLY whatever instructions she may give to you.
> 
>   Remember...there will be times when you cannot
>   understand her motives, for she is taking into account
>   many things which you cannot see and of which
>   she must not tell you. BUT WHETHER YOU UNDERSTAND
>   OR NOT, YOU WILL BE WISE TO FOLLOW HER IMPLICITLY, JUST
>   BECAUSE SHE KNOWS.
> 
>   THIS IS NOT MERE SUPPOSITION ON MY PART, NO MERE
>   FLIGHT OF THE IMAGINATION; I HAVE STOOD BESIDE YOUR
>   PRESIDENT IN THE PRESENCE OF THE SUPREME DIRECTOR
>   OF EVOLUTION ON THIS GLOBE, AND I KNOW WHEREOF I
>   SPEAK. Let the wise hear my words, and act accordingly."
>   ------------------------------------------------------
>   Caps added. Adyar Album, p. 45.
> 
>   And indeed Mr. Leadbeater was well connected himself. For Mrs. Besant herself certified his connection:
> 
>   "By hard, patient work he [C.W. Leadbeater] has won
>   rewards . . . until he stands perhaps the MOST TRUSTED of his
>   Master's disciples ON THE THRESHOLD OF DIVINITY."
>   [The Theosophist, November 1911, p. 308 Caps added.]
> 
>   In light of the above, especially Mr. Leadbeater's words, who could possibly doubt Mrs. Besant when she proclaimed to the whole world the following:
> 
>   ----------------------------------------------------------
>   "And now I have to give you, by command of the King, His message,
>   and some of the messages of the Lord Maitreya and His great
>   Brothers. . . what I am saying, as to matter of announcement, is
>   definitely at the command of the King whom I serve.
> 
>   His taking possession of His chosen vehicle . . . will be soon.
>   Then He will choose, as before, His twelve apostles . . . and their
>   chief, the Lord Himself. He has already chosen them, but I have only
>   the command to mention seven who have reached the stage of Arhatship,
>   Who were the 'Arhats'?
> 
>   The first two, my brother Charles Leadbeater and myself, . . . C.
>   Jinarajadasa, . . . George Arundale, Oscar Kollerstrom, . . . Rukmini
>   Arundale....
> 
>   I left out one and must leave out another. Naturally, our
>   Krishnaji [Jiddu Krishnamurti] was one, but he is to be the vehicle
>   of the Lord. And the other is one who is very dear to all of us, as
>   to the whole Brotherhood: Bishop James Wedgwood. He had borne his
>   crucifixion before the seal of Arhatship was set upon him by his King.
>   Those are the first seven of the twelve whom He has chosen, with
>   Himself as the thirteenth. 'Ye call me Master and Lord, and ye do
>   well, for so I am.'
> 
>   Now the wonder may come into your mind: H.P.B. was the only one
>   who was really announced as the messenger of the Master. Since then
>   the world has grown a good deal, and it is possible that while the
>   few may be repelled, many thousands will be attracted to the
>   Christ. . . . Whatever the effect, since He has said it, it is
>   done. . ."
>   --------------------------------------------------------
>   The Theosophist, November, 1925
> 
>   Therefore who could doubt anything said by these two people who have stood in THE PRESENCE OF THE SUPREME DIRECTOR OF EVOLUTION ON THIS GLOBE???
> 
>   I am shocked that you could..... :)
> 
>   Daniel
>   http://hpb.cc
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>