Theos-Talk Archives (April 2009 Message tt00172)

mkr, 
Perhaps a way of pleasing others might be to make the "Minutes of Meetings" a public document thta could be accesed or read online or even a scription. 
Regards, 
John 
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "MKR" <mkr777@gmail.com> 
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, April 15, 2009 5:24:20 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Questions for Keith - straight to the point I hope 








Many of the questions and issues we are discussing here, should have been 
looked into by the GC members and many of them who went to Adyar spending 
the money from TS should have taken the trouble to look into the details 
when they were there. We do not know what they did while they were at Adyar. 
Apart from allegations they have aired on Internet, they have not discussed 
any details of their activities when at Adyar. 

Since TS is not a secret organization, and the administrative issues are not 
secret, I hope some of those who were so eager to grab the power by 
disenfranchising all of us disclose more details. 

The organizational procedural matters are normally dealt with by lawyers 
(who are familiar with the law applicable to Chennai where Adyar is 
located), not laymen. I will be surprised if this has not already been done 
and everything that was done is legal. 

Apart from all the discussions we are having, the bottom line is that the 
matters of last year starting with the election tactics, many âleadersâ have 
lost their credibility in the minds of many members world-wide and until 
that is fixed, recruiting and retaining members is going to be very 
difficult, especially in the countries outside India. 

My 0.02. 

MKR 

On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 5:33 AM, Anton Rozman < anton_rozman@yahoo.com >wrote: 

> 
> 
> Dear Keith, 
> 
> Thank you very much for your additional comments on the (1) Nomination of 
> the new Vice-President. I see that you already elaborated also points (2) 
> Use of postal ballots procedure and (3) Status of GC members. Anyway, I 
> would like to kindly ask you to answer two additional questions about (2) 
> and (3). 
> 
> You said that: 
> 
> "The procedure for voting was the same method that has been used for many 
> years". 
> 
> Can you please explain the proceedings and when and why this procedure was 
> adopted as it is not designed in the TS Rules and Regulations? 
> 
> And secondly, there was an allegation that: 
> 
> "Irregularities continued with the Vice-presidential postal ballots in that 
> after the voting deadline, General Council members were scrutinized with an 
> eye to disqualifying various voters, such as those from Colombia and South 
> Africa (South Africa being later reinstated), and then the approval of 
> Greece post facto as eligible to vote." 
> 
> You said: 
> 
> "No objections to the nomination of a Vice-President, or to the procedure 
> of voting, were received until after the result was announced. Thirty three 
> members of the General Council voted in the postal ballot, validating the 
> nomination and the voting procedure, by casting a vote and signing their 
> names on a voting slip." 
> 
> As far I understand the events all this means that (a) postal ballots were 
> sent (in September) also to the representatives of Colombia, South Africa 
> and Greece, that (b) at the conclusion of the postal ballot procedure (in 
> October) the election results were announced (please, can you give us these 
> partial results too) without votes from these three countries (as not 
> qualified for the voting rights), that (c) after the requests from South 
> Africa and Greece their votes were reinstated, and that (d) final voting 
> results of the postal ballot procedure were actually announced on the GC 
> meeting in December, followed by objections regarding the procedure. 
> 
> Warmest regards, 
> Anton 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>, 
> "keith_fisher@..." <exsecy@...> wrote: 
> > 
> > Dear Anton 
> > 
> > It is clear from Rule 9. that the President's term of office is for a 
> > period of seven years only. There is no provision in this rule for 
> > further terms of office, each term being a separate unit. 
> > 
> > ******** 
> > Rule 9. President's term of office 
> > The term of office of the President shall be seven years from the 
> > date of assuming office. 
> > ******** 
> > 
> > It was an error of judgement on the part of the General Council, at 
> > its meeting in December 2007, to elect a Vice President for a three 
> > year term of office when the term of office of the President only 
> > had six months to run. 
> > 
> > Rule 11(a) does not require the term of office of the Vice President 
> > to be stated, as the rule itself limits the term of office to three 
> years. 
> > 
> > ******** 
> > Rule 11. Nomination and election of Vice?President; his duties 
> > (a) Within three months of assuming office the President shall 
> > nominate the Vice?President subject to confirmation by the 
> > General Council. His term of office shall be at the discretion of 
> > the President but when the Vice?President has been three years in 
> > office that office shall become vacant by the passage of time and 
> > the President, within three months, shall again make a nomination 
> > and submit it to the General Council. Notwithstanding this provision 
> > the Vice?President shall remain in office and his term shall continue 
> > until a successor has been nominated and confirmed. 
> > The Vice?President in office may be renominated. It shall be his duty, 
> > among other things, to carry on the executive functions of the President 
> > in case the President is dead or where the Executive Committee finds 
> > that he is disabled by accident, serious illness or otherwise from 
> > performing the duties of the President. 
> > ******** 
> > 
> > The President nominated a new Vice President within three months 
> > of assuming office for the new seven year term, the nomination was 
> > strictly in accordance with Rule 11(a). 
> > 
> > The term of office of the new Vice President was not stated in the 
> > nomination, so that it always remains at the discretion of the President. 
> > 
> > The procedure for voting was the same method that has been used for 
> > many years, including the nominations in 2007, by postal ballot so that 
> > all members of the General Council had the opportunity to cast a vote. 
> > The only difference was that as Rule 11(a) did not require three months 
> > notice to be given, the election was held from September to October. 
> > The Vice President was confirmed by a majority vote and the voting slips 
> > were scrutinized and confirmed at the General Council Meeting in 
> December. 
> > 
> > No objections to the nomination of a Vice President, or to the procedure 
> > of voting, were received until after the result was announced. Thirty 
> three 
> > members of the General Council voted in the postal ballot, validating the 
> > nomination and the voting procedure, by casting a vote and signing their 
> > names on a voting slip. 
> > 
> > The Vice President in office who has dealt with the Rules and Regulations 
> > of the Theosophical Society for many years, was one of the first to vote. 
> > 
> > Rule 11(a) makes no reference to Rule 3. and does not require the 
> > Vice President in office to be removed from office before another 
> > Vice President can be nominated. Therefore, Rule 3. is irrelevant in 
> > the replacement of a Vice President, and if used it would be in serious 
> > conflict with Rule 11(a). It would transfer the control of the term of 
> > office of the Vice President to the General Council, and it would no 
> > longer be at the President's discretion. 
> > 
> > ******** 
> > Rule3. Removal of General Council members and officers 
> > It shall be competent for the General Council to remove any of its 
> > members, or any officer of the Society excepting the President of 
> > the Theosophical Society and excepting the General Secretaries of 
> > National Societies, by a three?fourths majority of its whole number 
> > of members, at a special meeting called for the purpose, of which at 
> > least three months' notice shall have been given, the quorum consisting, 
> > however, of not fewer than five members. 
> > ******** 
> > 
> > The status of the Colombian Section was that it did not qualify for 
> > voting rights under Rule 36(d) at the time of the election, as it only 
> > had 52 members 
> > 
> > The status of the South African Section was that it qualified for voting 
> > rights at the time of the election as it had 5 lodges and 259 members. 
> > 
> > The status of the Greek Section was that it qualified for voting rights 
> > at the time of the election as it had 6 lodges and 108 members. 
> > 
> > ******** 
> > Rule 36(d) Minimum number of members for National Society 
> > If at any time the number of members in good standing of a National 
> > Society falls below seventy or the number of Lodges (Branches) falls 
> > below five the President may, at his discretion withdraw its Charter. 
> > In the event of the Charter not being withdrawn, the General Secretary 
> > of the Section concerned shall cease to have voting rights as a member 
> > of the General Council until the necessary numerical strength is 
> recovered. 
> > ******** 
> > 
> > Best wishes 
> > Keith 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com <theos-talk%40yahoogroups.com>, "Anton 
> Rozman" <anton_rozman@> wrote: 
> > > 
> > > Dear Keith, 
> > > 
> > > In regard to the Vice-President's election there seems to exist three 
> important questions, namely: (1) Nomination of the new Vice-President while 
> the old one was still in office (he has not resigned, he has not been 
> removed), (2) Use of `unusual procedure of a postal ballot' for the 
> confirmation of the new Vice-President from the part of the members of the 
> General Council and alleged `irregularities', and (3) Unclear status of the 
> General Council members from South Africa, Colombia and Greece. 
> > > 
> > > (1) As already said there are in the TS Rules and Regulations two 
> relevant stipulations concerning this issue. Rule 11(a): 
> > > 
> > > Within three months of assuming office the President shall nominate the 
> Vice-President subject to confirmation by the General Council. His term of 
> office shall be at the discretion of the President â; 
> > > 
> > > and Rule 3: 
> > > 
> > > It shall be competent for the General Council to remove any of its 
> members, or any officer of the Society â by a three-fourths majority of its 
> whole number of members. 
> > > 
> > > You already made a comment that: 
> > > 
> > > Rule 3 is an expulsion rule and would only be used to remove an Officer 
> or Additional Member if they had committed an offence or misdemeanour. This 
> did not apply to the Vice-President in office. A new Vice-President was 
> nominated in accordance with Rule 11(a) â 
> > > 
> > > I am afraid that according to such interpretation the Vice-President 
> who commits an offence or misdemeanor has far more rights then a regular 
> Vice-President who can be, at the discretion of the President, taken from 
> the office without any proceedings of the governing body of the TS. 
> > > 
> > > Maybe, dealing with the "political" (in a sense of the management of 
> public affairs) aspects of the President's decision and the situation after 
> the elections would bring us nearer to the truth. 
> > > 
> > > Would you like to make any additional comment? 
> > > 
> > > Warmest regards, 
> > > Anton 
> 
> 
> 

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