Theos-Talk Archives (March 2009 Message tt00309)

Dear Cass

My views are:

You will be given the same questions and a few extra words which I offered Pedro twice, and which he so far have not answered.

Here we go:
- - - 

1.
H. P. Blavatsky wrote in The Key to Theosophy, p. 3-5:
"ENQUIRER. What was the object of this system?

THEOSOPHIST. First of all to inculcate certain great moral truths upon its disciples, and all those who were "lovers of the truth." Hence the motto adopted by the Theosophical Society: "There is no religion higher than truth." â The chief aim of the Founder of the Eclectic Theosophical School was one of the three objects of its modern successor, the Theosophical Society, namely, to reconcile all religions, sects and nations under a common system of ethics, based on eternal verities.

 
ENQUIRER. What have you to show that this is not an impossible dream;
âââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââââ

page 4

and that all the world's religions are based on the one and the same truth?

THEOSOPHIST. Their comparative study and analysis. The "Wisdom-religion" was one in antiquity; and the sameness of primitive religious philosophy is proven to us by the identical doctrines taught to the Initiates during the MYSTERIES, an institution once universally diffused. "All the old worships indicate the existence of a single Theosophy anterior to them. The key that is to open one must open all; otherwise it cannot be the right key." (Eclect. Philo.)"
http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/aKEY.htm


But Krishanmurti lectured and answered questions as if he knew it all himself (or "needed" to talk with people). The conclusion is, that non-comparative study was recommended by J. Krishnamurti's and his "nobody"-but-Krishanmurti teachings.
And this is a fundamental problem, when one follows HPB's and Ammonious Saccas teachings to end the strife of the world religions by comprative study and by seeking to create a world wide universal brotherhood.

I ASK: Is this not true?



---

2.
H. P. Blavatsky in her E.S. Instruction No. I., 1889 wrote:
". . . A new and rapidly growing danger. . . is threatening . . . the 
spread of the pure Esoteric Philosophy and knowledge. . . . I 
allude to those charlatanesque imitations of Occultism and 
Theosophy. . . . By pandering to the prejudices of people, and 
especially by adopting the FALSE IDEAS of a personal God and A 
PERSONAL, CARNALIZED SAVIOUR, as the groundwork of their teaching, 
the leaders of this 'swindle' (for such it is) are endeavoring to 
draw men to them and in particular to turn Theosophists from the true 
path." Caps added.
http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/ests1p2.htm (Scanned fascimile of the 1890 edition)
http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/hpbes1extract.htm



I ASK: Are you disagreeing with H. P. Blavatsky's view?



3.
M. Sufilight asks politely:
I would like to know how TS Adyar and the followers of CWL, Annie Besant and J. Krishnamurti - also Alice A. Bailey can reconcile the above view by H. P. Blavatsky with their very own Messiah "scheme" or plan? Have their teachings any true validity?

Remember H. P. Blavatsky rejected the Spiritists doctrines. I bet she would reject the above J. Krishnamurti "belief" doctrines on meditation without a guru and the "Nobody"-But-Krishnamurti doctrines as well.

No answer is also an answer in my book.

>>>Because as H. P. Blavatsky wrote in "THE ESOTERIC CHARACTER OF THE GOSPELS"<<<

"Two things become evident to all in the above passages, now that their false rendering is corrected in the revision text: (a) "the coming of Christ," means the presence of CHRISTOS in a regenerated world, and not at all the actual coming in body of "Christ" Jesus; (b) this Christ is to be sought neither in the wilderness nor "in the inner chambers," nor in the sanctuary of any temple or church built by man; for Christ--the true esoteric SAVIOUR--is no man, but the DIVINE PRINCIPLE in every human being."
http://www.blavatsky.net/blavatsky/arts/EsotericCharacterOfTheGospels.htm

>>>And because as H. P. Blavatsky wrote in december 1887<<<

I"n CARNALIZING the central figure of the New Testament, in imposing
the dogma of the Word MADE FLESH, the Latin Church sets up a doctrine
diametrically opposed to the tenets of Buddhist and Hindu Esotericism
and the Greek Gnosis. Therefore, there will always be an abyss
between the East and the West, as long as neither of these dogmas
yields. Almost 2,000 years of bloody persecution against HERETICS
and INFIDELS by the Church looms before the Oriental nations to
prevent them from renouncing their philosophic doctrines in favor of
that which degrades the CHRISTOS principle. [372-373]

...when one legend based upon these mysteries attempts to arrogate
exclusive rights to itself above all the rest; when it declares
itself an infallible dogma to force the popular faith into a dead
letter belief, to the detriment of the true metaphysical meaning,
such legend must be denounced, its veil torn away, and itself
displayed in its nakedness to the world! [374]. . .

Whether it be Krishna, Buddha, Sosiosh, Horus or Christos, it is a
universal PRINCIPLE. . .

...the Christians, by localizing and isolating this great Principle,
and denying it to any other man except Jesus of Nazareth (or the
Nazar), CARNALIZE the Christos of the Gnostics; that alone prevents
them having any point in common with the disciples of the Archaic
Wisdom. . . . [374]

. . . I have not the slightest intention of hurting the feelings of
those who believe in Jesus, the carnalized Christ, but I feel myself
compelled to emphasize our own belief. . . .

. . . It is in this ancient wisdom, and in the Christos of the
Gnostics under its various names, that the Theosophists, disciples of
the Mahatmas, believe. . . . [385]

. . . true Theosophists will never accept ...a Christ made
Flesh. . . .[390]

Quoted from H.P. Blavatsky's COLLECTED WRITINGS, Volume VIII.http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v8/y1887_048.htm 

- - -

M. Sufilight asks politely:
So if various theosophical groups so to speak "CARNALIZE"
J. Krishnamurti as a (read carefully) non-ortodoks theosophical Saviour above the Masters OR a assumes the coming of the Christ at some period in time, either willingly or unwillingly to be the Word made Flesh, then I will have to ask WHO and WHAT are they helping?
The theosophical cause? What kind of a theosophical group would promote such a Messiah or World Teacher - instead of an AGENT of the Mastersknow as the Torchbearer of Truth? 
Indeed who? - Silence to this question is also answer.

No answer is also an answer in my book.


To keep muddling these issues will not help the theosophical Seekers and the theosophical cause if you ask me.

- - -


The law of Karma is precise and just.



M. Sufilight



  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cass Silva 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 5:53 AM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Evolution (AnandGholap.Net-Online Theosophy)


  As far as I know he never disparaged the Masters or HPB - he walked away from the theosophy that had become dogmatic - he said the same as Buddha - follow no gurus

  Cass

  ________________________________
  From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk>
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thursday, 12 March, 2009 4:53:14 AM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Evolution (AnandGholap.Net-Online Theosophy)

  Well. To me and others it just offered another external Messiah, who never really offficially respected other teachers within the wisdom-teachings. Not even H. P. Blavatsky, who made it possible for him to trample on the work of the Masters and Blavatsky, by denying its value.

  M. Sufilight

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cass Silva 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 12:40 AM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Evolution (AnandGholap. Net-Online Theosophy)

  I agree that it doesn't matter whether or not KM was WT or not - his teachings related to the personal ego and humanity's need to assess its role in the suffering of the world - this teaching was sorely needed and counteracted the christian belief in a messiah saviour - I learnt much about the psychology of the personality because of his teachings

  Cass

  ____________ _________ _________ __
  From: Govert Schuller <schuller@alpheus. org>
  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
  Sent: Wednesday, 11 March, 2009 7:04:11 AM
  Subject: Theos-World Re: Evolution (AnandGholap. Net-Online Theosophy)

  Dear Cass, 

  I'm puzzled. With what do you agree? And how does that connect with what you think K basically said? 

  Govert

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Cass Silva 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
  Sent: Monday, March 09, 2009 7:31 AM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Evolution (AnandGholap. Net-Online Theosophy)

  I agree Govert, basically all K said was take care of the ego and the monad will take care of itself.

  Cass

  ____________ _________ _________ __
  From: Govert Schuller <schuller@alpheus. org>
  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
  Sent: Friday, 6 March, 2009 4:49:39 AM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Evolution (AnandGholap. Net-Online Theosophy)

  Dear Anand,

  I think in the end, without occult means, it will be impossible to really prove the point that K was not the WT. We only can deduce its high plausibility through carefull research and reasoning. 

  Your target audience might be relatively small as the people believing that K was the WT are a handful of Theosophists and amongst them there are quite some that take K's line that it is not important to consider whether he was the WT or not. They'll just go with what they see as the intrinsic truth in K's teachings. The biggest and still growing audience you migh want to consider are the people in the K movement that have little or no idea of Theosophy. How to reach them? The obstacle is also that many there are very negative about Theosophy, some even considering Theosophy 'toxic waste.' 

  This will also be a challenge to Theosophists that do belief in K as the WT and think that K can only be properly understood within a Theosophical framework. Therefore I would have no qualms in teaming up in a temporary, limited coalition with Krishnamurtian Theosophists to make Theosophy relevant for the Krishnamurti movement. We might agree that K's teachings strictly interpreted on K's own de-ocultized terms harbors spiritual risks only to be overcome by occult philosophy. 

  Govert

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Anand 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
  Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 12:27 PM
  Subject: Theos-World Re: Evolution (AnandGholap. Net-Online Theosophy)

  Dear Govert,
  I see that vast number of people are getting misled by J. Krishnamurti' s teaching of freedom from all religions, theosophy, teachers and their teachings. One major reason why people give importance to J. Krishnamurti is they believe World Teacher taught through him. 
  I am convinced that World Teacher DID NOT teach through him. I want to prove to people that WT did not teach through him. If people understand it, they will not believe blindly in J. Krishnamurti and won't get misled by J. Krishnamurti. Now the question is how to prove that WT did not teach through J. Krishnamurti. That is why I sent this message.
  ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
  This message is among the most important messages I wrote, because it shows that
  J. Krishnamurti' s teaching has come from his own understanding of a human being,
  and his teaching is not from Christ.
  This passage is from the biography of J. Krishnamurti by Pupul Jaykar.
  "At the opening of the Star camp at Ommen in 1927 Krishnamurti spoke a language
  diametrically opposed to Theosophical teaching. On June 30 he said, "For many
  lives and for all this life, and especially the last few months, I have
  struggled to be free-free of my friends, my books, my associations. You must
  struggle for the same freedom. There must be constant turmoil within you."
  Krishnamurti was in revolt. No teacher or authority satisfied him."

  Note the words "I have struggled to be free" It shows that struggle to become
  free from authorities and teachings was Krishnamurti' s OWN struggle. It was not
  the teaching given by true World Teacher or Christ.
  J. Krishnamurti thought his own condition is same as that of millions of others
  and so he recommends his own struggle to all others, when they were completely
  different from him.
  ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
  Best
  Anand Gholap
  --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, "Govert Schuller" <schuller@.. .> wrote:
  >
  > Dear Anand,
  > 
  > Krishnamurti' s reports on his own struggles have to be viewed in the context of his overall spiritual development and level of initiation. The crux might be that he went arguably through the 4th initiation with some tests where he had to be free and independent. Some call it the dark night of the soul (or spirit), where the initiate has to deal with certain challenges free from the Masters and his higher self. K might have liked the independence coming with that initiation too much and decided to stay in that mode and toss everything overboard, Masters and Theosophy included. 
  > 
  > Of course the struggles he went through were his own and can be evaluated positively and are, within certain bounds, applicable to everybody. The important caveat is that this struggle is only a phase within a larger process and should not be absolutized as K did. 
  > 
  > I do think you're on the right track, but to really make the case, you have to get a close reading of all events between 1921 and 1933 and all set within a Theosophical paradigm of understanding and not K's own, fascinating, alluring and valuable as that also might be. 
  > 
  > And to make such an investigation really work we have to incorporate some considerations derived from "the philosophy of science of religion" as developed by some researchers with a keen sense of methodology. I'm still trying to wrap my my around the topic and it feels I'm almost there to share some insights. The important thing is that those methodological considerations are trying to straddle the area between religionism and reductionism in a very similar way as Therosophy tries a middle way between theological dogmatism (religionism) and materialism (reductionism) . 
  > 
  > Govert
  > 
  > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > From: Anand 
  > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
  > Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 2:36 AM
  > Subject: Theos-World Re: Evolution (AnandGholap. Net-Online Theosophy)
  > 
  > 
  > This message is among the most important messages I wrote, because it shows that J. Krishnamurti' s teaching has come from his own understanding of a human being, and his teaching is not from Christ.
  > This passage is from the biography of J. Krishnamurti by Pupul Jaykar.
  > "At the opening of the Star camp at Ommen in 1927 Krishnamurti spoke a language diametrically opposed to Theosophical teaching. On June 30 he said, "For many lives and for all this life, and especially the last few months, I have struggled to be free-free of my friends, my books, my associations. You must struggle for the same freedom. There must be constant turmoil within you." Krishnamurti was in revolt. No teacher or authority satisfied him."
  > 
  > Note the words "I have struggled to be free" It shows that struggle to become free from authorities and teachings was Krishnamurti' s OWN struggle. It was not the teaching given by true World Teacher or Christ. 
  > J. Krishnamurti thought his own condition is same as that of millions of others and so he recommends his own struggle to all others, when they were completely different from him. 
  > Best
  > Anand Gholap
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > 
  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
  >

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