Theos-Talk Archives (March 2009 Message tt00037)

Dear John

I thoroughly agree with what you say. 

Cass' frustration is entirely appropriate.

>From my perspective many of Anand Gholap's comments make a 
mockery of both himself and us all, not to mention Theosophy. 
And his refusal to respond and provide evidence for some of 
his more outrageous accusations, even more so.

When his comments, or lack thereof, develop some integrity, it 
will be a blessing.

Regards
Nigel    

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Augoeides-222@... wrote:
>
> Nigel, 
> Her response is natural and appropiate. Anand utilizes the classic 
accusation the Historic Church Blavatsky railed about. The accusation 
of inaccuracies and errors. They used it brutally against the 
Gnostics and any other that threatened the Dogma. But today we sup on 
Christian and Brahman discontent of Theosophy. 
> 
> Regards, 
> John 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "nhcareyta" <nhcareyta@...> 
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Sunday, March 1, 2009 4:39:37 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
> Subject: Theos-World Re: C.W. Leadbeater, the greatest occultist-
saint of all times 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dear Cass 
> 
> Do I detect a touch of frustration in your recent comments :) 
> 
> Kind regards 
> Nigel 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com , Cass Silva <silva_cass@> wrote: 
> > 
> > Geez Anand, even if according to your opinion these letters were 
> materialized by HPB she didn't materialize a blank sheet of paper. 
> If HPB wrote Isis and SD unaided then we should be worshipping at 
her 
> feet because somebody bloodywell wrote them, Blavatsky continually 
> stated that she was only PASSING ON and not the ORIGINATOR of these 
> ANCIENT EASTERN TEACHINGS - WHAT PART OF THAT DON'T YOU GET? She 
> in all humility admitted that the works was not hers!!! 
> > Are you suggesting that Blavatsky initiated these teachings in 
> order that Leadbeater et al would come along and correct them - and 
> der if this was the case - why go through HPB at all - why not go 
to 
> whoever you believe were the true theosophists. 
> > Your power of logic leaves much to be questioned 
> > 
> > Cass 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ________________________________ 
> > From: Anand <AnandGholap@> 
> > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
> > Sent: Sunday, 1 March, 2009 7:48:00 AM 
> > Subject: Theos-World Re: C.W. Leadbeater, the greatest occultist- 
> saint of all times 
> > 
> > 
> > Daniel, 
> > I think you need to correct your views. 
> > First of all you are assuming that so called Mahatma Letters were 
> > written by Mahatmas. I wrote on this subject earlier and 
explained 
> why 
> > these letters are not as authentic as believed. 
> > We know most Mahatma Letters were materialized by Blavatsky, 
> according 
> > to her own admission. And we also know that contents of the 
letter 
> > depended on chela's own development. 
> > That means you can not take statements from Mahatma Letters to 
> support 
> > Blavatsky or her teaching, as letters were materialized by 
herself. 
> > If you do, it will be like saying "Blavatsky was right because 
she 
> > said she was right" 
> > You consider Blavatsky's writing as the source of Theosophy. This 
is 
> > another delusion. Theosophical principles existed for thousands 
of 
> > years in the East and the West and Blavatsky draws from them. You 
> can 
> > note her frequent references of ancient writings. 
> > You wrote 
> > "But my point here is that they (later messengers) built on her 
> > (Blavatsky's) original foundation, they followed or tried to 
follow 
> or 
> > at least said they tried to follow in her footsteps." 
> > Although in humility later messengers might given more credit to 
> > Blavatsky, the fact is Besant and Leadbeater wrote what they 
> > themselves experienced and investigated with their own 
clairvoyance. 
> > And Leadbeater himself disagrees with Blavatsky on some important 
> > points. Besant and Leadbeater were not disciples of Blavatsky, 
they 
> > were disciples of Mahatmas. 
> > I don't think writings of later messengers depended on 
Blavatsky's 
> > writing. Later writing should be considered as product of 
> independent 
> > investigations by later occultists. 
> > 
> > Best 
> > Anand Gholap 
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, "danielhcaldwell" 
> > <danielhcaldwell@ ...> wrote: 
> > > 
> > > I would like to quote what Jerry H.E. wrote years ago on theos-
l: 
> > > 
> > > "...we tried to promote a historically based general definition 
> of 
> > > [Theosophical] source material that focuses upon the period 
> before 
> > > the splits [in the Theosophical Society], when this material 
> > > was being given out for the first time. Therefore, this period 
is 
> > > common history for everybody [i.e., for Theosophical 
students]". 
> > > 
> > > Notice Jerry's words: 
> > > 
> > > "...when this material was being given out for THE FIRST TIME". 
> caps 
> > > added 
> > > 
> > > It was H.P. Blavatsky who showed up on the public scene in late 
> 1874 
> > > and 1875 in America and started the process of giving out 
> the "source 
> > > material" which she said emanated from her Lodge, from her 
> Masters. 
> > > 
> > > In July, 1875, when she wrote her "first occult shot" Olcott 
knew 
> > > virtually nothing about the "source teachings" except what HPB 
> had 
> > > started to give him. 
> > > 
> > > Judge, Mavalankar, Sinnett, Subba Row, Chatterji, Holloway, 
> > > Leadbeater, Besant and others had not even meet HPB at this 
time! 
> > > 
> > > Each in turn had a fateful day when they heard of and then met 
> HPB. 
> > > 
> > > She was the SOURCE, the channel through which each of them 
> obtained 
> > > their initial knowledge and understanding of Theosophy and the 
> > > Masters. 
> > > 
> > > Sinnett himself readily admits this in one of his books "The 
> Early 
> > > Days of Theosophy": 
> > > 
> > > "Madame Blavatsky is the CENTRAL FIGURE to be considered. She 
was 
> THE 
> > > ONE PERSON who knew of her own knowledge, that The Brothers, 
� 
> as she 
> > > called them in those days � were Beings, human in aspect, 
of 
> flesh 
> > > and blood, for she had been for a time in company with two of 
> them in 
> > > Tibet. She knew they had dazzling powers in dealing with the 
> affairs 
> > > of the world. She herself had faculties of a super-physical 
order 
> > > that kept her in touch with them wherever she might be. She 
knew 
> she 
> > > had a mission to fulfil which had for the moment assumed the 
> shape of 
> > > the Theosophical Society. She must have been conscious of 
> possessing 
> > > wonderful powers the exercise of which was under restriction, 
to 
> > > which she submitted in devotion to the great Brother whom she 
> > > regarded as her own Master, in a pre-eminent degree. �
[page 17] 
> caps 
> > > added. 
> > > 
> > > Relevant to keep in mind is what HPB herself wrote in 1877 in 
her 
> > > very first book ISIS UNVEILED. She told her readers about these 
> > > Adepts and her role in giving out the fundamentals of Theosophy 
> as 
> > > follows: 
> > > 
> > > ". . .we came into contact with certain men, endowed with such 
> > > mysterious powers and such profound knowledge that we may truly 
> > > designate them as the sages of the Orient. To their 
instructions 
> we 
> > > lent a ready ear." p. vi 
> > > 
> > > "The work now submitted to public judgment is the fruit of a 
> somewhat 
> > > intimate acquaintance with Eastern adepts and study of their 
> > > science." p. v 
> > > 
> > > Moving on.... 
> > > 
> > > And during the 16 and 1/2 years of her public work, HPB was 
> > > constantly giving out these "source teachings" of Theosophy. 
> > > 
> > > And if, for example, William Judge or C.W. Leadbeater had never 
> become 
> > > a Theosophist, we would still have Theosophy as given by HPB in 
> the 
> > > 10,000 plus pages of her writings as well as all the extant 
> letters 
> > > of the Masters. 
> > > 
> > > If Sinnett or Besant had never come into contact with HPB or if 
> they 
> > > had become students of Theosophy but had never written a word 
on 
> the 
> > > subject, we would still have "the source teachings" as given 
> through 
> > > HPB. 
> > > 
> > > Historically speaking therefore, HPB was the SOURCE, i.e. "the 
> point 
> > > at which something springs into being", for Theosophy as we 
know 
> it 
> > > in modern times. 
> > > 
> > > HPB came FIRST; each of the individuals named above came LATER. 
> > > 
> > > Now I am not saying that Olcott, Judge, Mavalankar, Sinnett, 
> > > Leadbeater Besant and others may not have made contributions to 
> the 
> > > Theosophical work that HPB had originally started. They may 
> have.... 
> > > 
> > > But my point here is that they built on her original 
foundation, 
> they 
> > > followed or tried to follow or at least said they tried to 
follow 
> in 
> > > her footsteps. 
> > > 
> > > But had none of these individuals ever written any thing on 
> > > Theosophy, the "source teachings" as given by HPB would still 
be 
> > > available. 
> > > 
> > > Notice again that Jerry HE writes: "...we tried to promote a 
> > > historically based general definition of source material that 
> focuses 
> > > upon the period BEFORE [caps added] the splits [occurred in the 
> > > Theosophical Society].... ] 
> > > 
> > > When did the splits occur? One split that Jerry HE is probably 
> > > referring to is the serious split between Besant and Judge. 
> > > 
> > > But there was a "split" as early as 1886 when A.P. Sinnett 
sought 
> > > communication with the Masters through a SOURCE other than HPB. 
> > > 
> > > Originally Sinnett was put into contact VIA HPB with the 
Masters 
> > > through letters beginning in Oct. 1880. 
> > > 
> > > But in 1884, he started to "resent" some of what the Masters 
were 
> > > telling him in their letters. And he began to have doubts about 
> HPB 
> > > and sought in 1886 to gain access to the Masters through Maude 
> > > Trevers whom he hypnotised. 
> > > 
> > > Actually Sinnett had tried this very same thing (hypnosis) in 
the 
> > > summer of 1884 with Laura Holloway. 
> > > 
> > > Sinnett's seeking for a source to the Masters OTHER THAN 
through 
> HPB, 
> > > lead finally to that famous K.H. letter to Colonel Olcott in 
> August, 
> > > 1888. (See Letter 19 in "The Letters of the Masters of the 
> > > Wisdom*First Series".) 
> > > 
> > > Olcott, Judge, Mavalankar, Sinnett, Subba Row, Leadbeater, 
Besant 
> AND 
> > > OTHERS may have made valuable contributions to Theosophy BUT 
> whatever 
> > > they accomplished (or did not accomplish) was built upon the 
> > > foundation of "source teachings" FIRST given by H.P. Blavatsky. 
> > > 
> > > And when the serious split between Judge on one side and 
> > > Besant/Olcott on the other side started and culminated in 1893- 
> 1995, 
> > > BOTH SIDES claimed contact with the Masters and the deceased 
HPB. 
> > > Then the Theosophical Society was splintered. 
> > > 
> > > Who was in the right and who was in the wrong is not easy to 
> > > determine. 
> > > 
> > > But I have file folders of letters from serious Theosophy 
> students 
> > > giving their differing views. Some believe Besant and Olcott 
fell 
> by 
> > > the wayside and Judge remained faithful to the Masters. Others 
> > > believe Judge fell by the wayside as well as Olcott and Besant. 
> > > Others say Judge failed but Besant continued the orginal 
> tradition. 
> > > etc. etc. 
> > > 
> > > On Theos-Talk in the last few years we have seen various 
> > > correspondents take different sides and views. Frank R., Anand 
> G., 
> > > Dallas T., Nigel C. and others have voiced their differing 
views. 
> > > Now Govert has posted some material giving even another view! 
> > > 
> > > I believe HPB foretold this split that occurred within a few 
> years 
> > > after her death in her Letter to the Fifth Annual Convention of 
> the 
> > > American Section of the T.S just before she died. See the very 
> bottom 
> > > of p. 171, the full page 172 and ending on p. 173 of HPB's 
> Collected 
> > > Writings, Vol. 13. 
> > > 
> > > Going back to what Jerry H.E. wrote: "Therefore, this period 
> [before 
> > > the splits] is common history for everybody." 
> > > 
> > > I would amend this to read: 
> > > 
> > > Therefore, this period BEFORE HPB died SHOULD BE common history 
> for 
> > > everybody. 
> > > 
> > > Again summarising the above: 
> > > 
> > > HPB was the first to come on the public stage and give the 
source 
> > > teachings of Theosophy in 10,000 + pages of writings plus the 
> letters 
> > > of the Masters given out during HPB's life. 
> > > 
> > > The Theosophists I have mentioned above and others such as 
> Tingley, 
> > > de Purucker, Bailey, etc. came on the scene sometime after HPB. 
> They 
> > > may have all been sincere, truth seeking individuals and all 
may 
> have 
> > > made to a greater or lesser degree various contributions 
> (literary or 
> > > otherwise) to HPB's work, but especially after HPB's death, 
> claims 
> > > and counter claims proliferated. 
> > > 
> > > For a listing of more of the claims and counterclaims, see: 
> > > 
> > > http://blavatskyarc hives.com/ moderntheosophy. htm#Endnote 
> > > 
> > > But Theosophical students should have in HPB's claims and 
> teachings a 
> > > COMMON SOURCE to focus on, regardless of the truth and validity 
> of 
> > > the secondary "sources" and later claims of some of HPB's 
> students or 
> > > later followers or claimants after HPB died. 
> > > 
> > > Now, I am not implying or saying that there were no contacts 
with 
> the 
> > > Masters after HPB's death. After her death and even today other 
> > > agents MAY have come forth. That is, genuine contacts from 
HPB's 
> > > Masters. 
> > > 
> > > Unfortunately, you cannot get a room of serious 
> Theosophy/Blavatsky 
> > > students from diverse Theosophical backgrounds to agree on who 
> that 
> > > person or agent was or is! 
> > > 
> > > That is a fact that should make a reflective and thoughtful 
> person 
> > > pause and ponder. 
> > > 
> > > I suggest especially to new students and inquirers that they 
> would be 
> > > wise to focus [at least initially] on the writings of HPB and 
the 
> > > letters of the Masters which from the perspective I have been 
> > > outlining above are the SOURCE Teachings of modern day 
Theosophy. 
> > > 
> > > Here is a huge body of material that contains more than enough 
> food 
> > > for thought for serious inquirers, seekers and new 
Theosophists. 
> > > 
> > > I will continue this line of thought in subsequent postings. 
> > > 
> > > Daniel Caldwell 
> > > http://hpb.cc 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Stay connected to the people that matter most with a smarter 
> inbox. Take a look http://au.docs.yahoo.com/mail/smarterinbox 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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