Theos-Talk Archives (March 2009 Message tt00013)

Dear John,

Good. It looks like we don't have to agree, which is fine with me too, and still have an enlightening conversation. Some responses:

1) I'm not concerned about Hindu or Buddhist views here. I'm not an expert in that field. I'm more concerned to interpret the reported facts of first person experiences and observations from within a Theosophical framework.

2) I agree that K's 'Beloved' can be construed as his higher self, but also as Maitreya's or any other Self, realized like a Master or not realized like ourselves. My understanding is that K had to get to that level to be able to be overshadowed. 

3) With 'without residue' I mean that for a while (ca. 1925-1927) K was able to stay at that mystical level of union with his Self and thereby being an accassional conduit for Maitreya and very powerfull metaphysical energies as witnessed by many. For that period the whole of his person was involved. Therefore I do not belief that he would have tea with his family bi-locating on a different plane while being overshadowed. 

4) If there were multiple entities involved in K's psychic life, we have only the reports of his friends that during his process K was apparently absent and that sometimes his body-elemental was communicating with his friends, telling them that his 'master' obviously trusted them to leave his body in their care. 

5) Actually another 'entity' involved in K's psychic life was something he called the 'tyrant' or something similar and then in Latin. I have been waiting for 10 years for the collected early works of K to come out to do more research on this, but the project has stalled. Anyway, there is some writing by K in which he described to be egged on by something interior that drove him into full independence. This was not his Beloved and I'm not sure in what time period it was written, though it was around the crucial year of 1927. This might have been his residual lower self that came popping up again and asserted itself against Maitreya and Theosophy and tricked K's soul into re-interpreting and re-calibrating the WT project to its own desires evenwhile convincing others there was no ego left. From that perspective it's either breath-takingly cunning or perplexingly naive how K pulled that off. 

Govert


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Augoeides-222@comcast.net 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 4:27 PM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti on who are you


  Govert, 
  Thanks for you comments and reply. I respectfully disagree specifically to the part as regards AB and Maitreya. My personal opinion and view is Maitreya then and now currently is just so much baloney and malarky. I have no agreement whatever that Maitreya as Bodhisattva or as the future Avatar was then or now a reality no matter how many times Besant or anyone else asserted it. And I view the Arhat garbage of Besant the same way. They used it to get their goal acheived as a fabrication in my humble opinion. I find the very idea insulting and offensive to Buddhism and Hinduism alike. Just my personal view. I would like to see someone find the actual views and reactions by respected Buddhist Lineage Holders to Besants claims about Maitreya that were voiced during that time. I don't think they appreciated it. 

  In regards to the "Beloved" it is his Higher Self he refers to in my view ,even if he ascribes a "label" such as Maitreya. I just have a different viewpoint. There is no "Going up"or "Going down" the moment is the eternal moment of the now, all that is about and all that is of "I" are essence in unity. It is only the Doorway Nebulous to Time that opens and closes as the Portal from one to another that presents the enablement ofthe "Beloved" to present. By "Observer" I did mean the persona of KM that would be conscious,aware and present but not usually interactive when the "Beloved" is present. It can also be that KM could have been elsewhere through the bilocation of his consciousness such as a Temple or another Plane and be having seperate perceptions and interactions with others on other planes or planets etc. while the Beloved" is active using his physical apparatus. This was what was happening in the case I mentioned that I was involved in many years ago. The "One" discoursed and the other later upon awaking described at length where he was, what he saw, who he sat with and chatted, what they said ect and all the time the "Other" was discoursing to a seated assembly of Hearers. Actually this is all in the Book I posted here a while back and a great deal more. 

  While you may have conducted a study of KM, I usually relate from my experience that was a direct happening. We can only proceed as our nature leads us. The idea of a "Mystical Union" is mystical itself and I think people do engage this sphere as we all probably do for whatever reason, but it is only a "via" and a substitute for reality that is. It stands to reason the the Higher Self though without any measure or dimension is the macro to the micro. 

  I can agree with AB idea the they were "melding" I have previously discribed this observation in my own direct experience having spent 5 years directly seeing and observing such a case before my own eyes. 

  I am not sure what your meaning is when you say "without residue", is it that you mean his persona had no presence at those timmes? 

  Regards, 
  John 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "Govert Schuller" <schuller@alpheus.org> 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 8:50:28 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti on who are you 

  Dear John, 

  You stated: "He meant in my personal view the "Agency" that stepped into his animation of form known as Krishna Murti who, when that happened, stepped aside and became the observer like the rest of the people present. " 

  This is not an accurate reproduction of the way in which K himself reported his experience of the 'overshadowing.' For him it was a mystical union with what he called for a while his 'beloved.' AB's interpretation was that K's and Maitreya's consciousness were melding. In other words, K went up, or disolved, into the experience without residue. If there was an observer it was Maitreya as he had the 'larger' consciousness. 

  Govert 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Augoeides-222@comcast.net 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 5:03 PM 
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti on who are you 

  Morten, 
  I might reply in the context of Hodson's extract. I have a cultured view on the iteration he makes as to KM, the overshadowing of him by another presence that he characterizes as "The World Teacher that is now in our midst". He meant in my personal view the "Agency" that stepped into his animation of form known as Krishna Murti who, when that happened, stepped aside and became the observer like the rest of the people present. I experienced a similar manisfestation in 1976-81 and even later. I also witnessed many people extremely impacted by the given offered words of "The Vessal of Light". I even on several occasions posted some of them here on this forum over the last 10 years. I too witnessed many people enraptured in unremoveable concentration and rapport being moved to the point of tears rolling down their cheeks enmass not just by the words but also by the the unique remarkable rare and powerful energy radiated by the presence itself which performed penetration to the inner person. So in remembrance of what I was allowed to participate and receive then I understand that KM did not mean himself but what he became receptacle of. The Agency he meant was beyond his form, intellect and means in my view. I spent years near something just like this, but also quite different in nature and context. The person in my case would never claim he was the Agency that spoke through him, and I doubt Krishna Murti would have either. So one needs to keep the to Natures divided from each other. I coined the expression "Switching Gears" back in 1976-7 to characterize the change of contenance and vocalized voice that was completely different than the normal persons idioms and vocal sounds. The co-habitation in the beginning was marked and definite viz one to the other. Later it became very, very subtle, so much so that one could only know the Agency was present if one had known the everyday person intimately for extended period as I had. Others who had not this advantage thought there was only one person present when in fact they both were there, but so subtle discrimination was not part of the new casual observers ability. As Hodson said there was a spiritual influence emanating from KM , so it was also the fact with my direct experiance in this case. It was not scant or diffused energy but it impinged to the point you knew and felt the energy projected to all present. During this case at a certain time , at a certain place and in a state of "projection" and receptivity the "Vessel of Light" said taking his right hand "By this act we are joined for eternity" this established a continued "Rapport" that remained until his physical death on Jan. 20, 2009. In 1999 he said "I do not see my face in the return of the Children---- nontheless----- I do awake each day with the voice of " ------" within me." So it is plausible that this circumstance was also established alike in the case of Krishna Murti. In no way was it the personality normal in KM 's historical life. Just my personal POV. 

  Regards, 
  John 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" < global-theosophy@stofanet.dk > 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 10:35:13 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti on who are you 

  Did you read my previous e-mail? 
  How can one learn to know one self without being guided and without comparative studying? 
  Is it safe to promote a psychological revolution inwardly without a guide? 

  1. 
  J. Krishnamurti said: 
  "I know that which I am; I know my purpose in life because I am Life itself without name, without limitation. And because I am Life I would urge you to worship that Life, not in this form that is Krishnamurti but the Life which dwells in each one of you. Put aside all the paraphernalia of beliefs, religions and ceremonies, and you will find the Truth." 
  (The seventh International Camp of the Order of the Star 
  held at Ommen, Holland, August 6th, 1928) 

  http://jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/1928-let-understanding-be-the-law/jiddu-krishnamurti-let-understanding-be-the-law-07.php 

  2.AN APPRECIATION OF C. W. LEADBEATER By Geoffrey Hodson 

  "As I have elsewhere written, I attended several of the Star Camps in Holland and was present when there was evidence of remarkable, if brief, supernormal manifestations. On more than one occasion some two thousand people from many parts of the world were gathered at Ommen to hear Krishnamurti. Each evening, all were seated in concentric circles round a large camp fire. Krishnamurti would arrive, take his place for a time, and then rise and apply a torch to the camp fire. As the flames arose against the evening sky he would chant a mantram to the god Agni, and return to his seat. Thereafter he would begin to speak, and on more than one occasion a noticeable change took place in him. His voice altered and his hitherto rather iconoclastic utterances gave way to a wonderful tenderness of expression and thought which induced in those present an elevation of consciousness. The Talks were followed by prolonged meditative silences. Many of those present, myself among them, bore testimony to the sense of divine peace which had descended, to a realization of the Presence of the Lord, and to an assurance that the prophecy had begun to be fulfilled. These phenomena occurred during some few successive years, the events being so marked that Krishnamurti himself there after changed the Objects of the Order of the Star in the East from, in effect, "To prepare for the coming of the Lord" to "To serve the World Teacher now that He is in our midst." I, myself, more than once heard Krishnamurti affirm that the great Teacher was now here and that the "Coming" had actually occurred. Even now when he is speaking, with others I discern a spiritual influence emanating from him, as if a great Being were still using him as a vehicle.This, however, does not constitute a complete fulfillment of the original prophecy." 
  www.theosophical.org/resources/articles/AppreciationofCWL.pdf (written around 1965) 

  A Nobody or Guru or Messiah or partly a Messiah? Unimportant to J. Krishnamurti? 

  M. Sufilight 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: christinaleestemaker 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:50 PM 
  Subject: Theos-World Krishnamurti on who are you 

  http://video.google.nl/videosearch?q=krishnamurti+on+whoam 
  +I&hl=nl&emb=0&aq=f# 

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