Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti on who are you
Feb 28, 2009 11:09 AM
by Morten Nymann Olesen
Dear Govert and friends
My views are:
Well thanks to you too.
CWL or W. C. Leadbeater as Blavatsky called him was being trained no doubt there.
He was just playing a role, which in fact to a certain degree helped protect the TS and yet because he failed and fell - so much - on the spiritual Path, he damaged the TS severely.
And Annie Besant and J. Krishnamurti was dragged into it all, because CWL's books and lectures had made him so wellknown and popular compared with Annie Besant.
---
Though, I wonder, Could it be so, that if Annie Besant, CWL and J. Krishnamurti had'nt done what they did, others might have done the same or similar in either dead-letter or non-dead-letter parallel to this, and thereby damaging the actual - theosophical cause - to an even greater extend?
I have difficulties in accepting such a view, because of the Karmic burden, which have been created.
---
Some words.
1. H. P. Blavatsky and Christianity
The only thing to do is to tell the truth.
Tell the truth about it in these days of the "Information Society". And to emphasise the very bad activities which The Christian Churches are behind. I cannot think of any book more clear in its content than Blavatsky's "The Key to Theosophy" in dealing with the problems Christianity poses, those spiritualism /spiritism poses, those the enemies of the theosophical cause (not the same as the enemies of present day TS cause) poses.
When thinking about CWL's actitivies I am always thinking about Master KH's warning. And I can only recommend it be taken more seriously than CWL did:
"For the opposition represents enormous vested interests, and they have enthusiastic help from the Dugpas -- in Bhootan and the Vatican! "
(Here is all of Mahtama Letter, No. 55. Dugpas are the same as selfish Magicians.)
http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/mahatma/ml-55.htm
H. P. Blavatsky said:
"The Society founded to remedy the glaring evils of Christianity, to shun bigotry and intolerance, cant and superstition and to cultivate real universal love extending even to the dumb brute".
(The Collected Writings of H. P. Blavatsky, vol. 7, p.246)
Blavatsky once wrote something like, that the Highmass of the Catholic Church is no less than sorcery at its worst!
2. The Liberal Catholic Church, the Bible and H. P. Blavatsky
Now - today - the Liberal Catholic Church tells us, that they know what to do, and even within the compund of TS Adyar!
a)
Try to compare LCC's dogmas "Come Worship With Us" with H. P. Blavatsky words about Christianity, the Bible and its dogmas!
"We teach that the Holy Scriptures, the Creeds, and the Traditions of the Church are the means by which the teachings of Christ have been handed down to His followers. We teach that they are fundamental, true, and sufficient as a basis for right understanding and right conduct."
http://www.liberalcatholic.org/teachings.html
- - -
b)
H. P. Blavatsky on the Bible:
"In the last quarter of the nineteenth century, when the latest international revision of the Bible-that infallible and revealed Word of God!-reveals 64,000 mistranslations and other mistakes, it is not the Theosophists-a large number of whose members are English patriots and men of learning-but rather the Christians who ought to beware of "wanton aggressiveness" against people of other creeds. Their boomerangs may fly back from some unexpected parabola and hit the throwers. " (H. P. Blavatsky's article "NOT A CHRISTIAN"! , written 25. Feb. 1879.)
That is to say: mistakes or mistranslations in almost each verse in the Bible.
Yesterday I e-mailed the following article written by HPB and another fellow theosophist.
H. P. Blavatsky said the following about the Christianity in a letter in
"LUCIFER TO THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY, GREETING! *":
http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v8/y1887_039.htm
- - -
A minor comment to the Alice A. Bailey readers:
In the above link Christianity is considered worse than Islam, Hinduism, Zoroastrism and Buddhism.
Even so we have a huge number of Alice A. Bailey groups on the planet believing dead-letter in the content of the Alice A. Bailey books saying - Esoteric Psychology, vol. 1, page 167-8:
"Every great religion which arises is under the influence of one or other of the rays, but it does not necessarily follow that each successive ray should have a great far-reaching religion as its outcome. We have heard that Brahmanism is the last great religion which arose under first ray influence; we do not know what may have been the religion which was the outcome of the last second ray period; but the Chaldean, the Egyptian and the Zoroastrian religions may be taken as representing the third, the fourth, and the fifth rays respectively. Christianity and probably Buddhism were the result of sixth ray influence. Mohammedanism, which numbers so large a following, is also under sixth ray influence, but it is not a great root religion, being a hybrid offshoot of Christianity with the tinge of Judaism. "
This Master - D.K. of Alice A. Bailey's are appearntly preferring the Christian religion instead of H. P. Blavatskys teachings, were it is the Christian religion, which poses the greatest problem.
- - -
And TS Adyar are selling the books by C. W. Leadbeater even if they lead people to believe, that LCC is something very very good. Which it most certainly is not!
H. P. Blavatsky would, as I see it, of course have written the same as me if she were officially and physically alive and recognized today.
The LCC doctrine omits any talk about the Divine within each human being, and call it a "him" and a gigantic male. What is their baptism but another name for sorcery? And saying prayers?
Look here: http://kingsgarden.org/English/Organizations/LCC.gb/ (Try the link "Liturgy")
But these are just my sort of humble views.
And I am not quite certain if any of the members at this forum are aware of the heavy problems the Christian religion poses with its stupid dogmas and its false Bible and false gospels?
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Govert Schuller
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 5:42 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti on who are you
Dear Morten,
Belated thanks for pointing out the Scott material and its relevance in evaluating K.
So far, it looks to me that CWL, despite all his faults, was used by the Masters to find and initially train K. A forthcoming study based on primary sources about the writing of "At the Feet of the Masters" will hopefully throw a little more light on the role of CWL and present more facts to base an opinion on.
It looks like to me that the Masters are just have to row with the oars they have.
Govert
----- Original Message -----
From: Morten Nymann Olesen
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti on who are you
Dear John and friends
My views are:
Your views might be true.
I would however mention another angle is posssible. At various times certain magicians come forward and are able to impact various persons emotional bodies - and the persons find the influence to be spiritual, or it happens through what we call selv-suggestion. The WANT to experience something so badly, that they experience what they seek, and that they call a genuine spiritual experience - no matter if it in truth just simply was a few elementals or astral energies they felt, or a selfimagined sign of having seen the Avatar og the Age - was felt. - If one tell them the truth about it all - they will wehemently deny it totally - using strong emotional language etc. etc.
Yes, I also find Hodson saying that J. Krishnamurti was overshadowed.
And I will agree on two or three occasion in the twenties so far.
But, I will not call J. Krishnamurti a genuinie theosophist. He in part damaged the TS, both willingly and unwillingly. He must have known, that his activities was not similar to Ammonius Saccas and H. P. Blavatsky seeking to unite the various religious bodies, so to end the continous strifes.
And the blurred image of himself (Avatar of the Age or not) he - CLEARLY - allowed to remain among the those who sought to know about him, also created trouble. And allowing himself to be discovred singlehandedly by an alledged (former?) phaedophile was certainly not helpful to the theosophical cause. - And giving people the impression, that he was not allowing a Guru - or Master-Chela teachings was wrong. - And moreso his statements about TS and the later distance to TS Adyar and TS as such is and was not in his favour. In the end he seemed to regret it, and change his mind.
Official public World Teacher of the Age is not helpful to the theosophical cause, who needs to KNOW the truth and to believe the truth. Creating emotionalism is not the best path to follow for most people.
- - -
No.
I would suggest that the readers listen to the words by Sir Thomas in Cyril Scotts book.
Here is the quote from Cyril Scotts book where Sir Thomas is given the word:
http://www.alpheus.org/html/source_materials/krishnamurti/truth_about_k.html
The whole book is online here. Try reading the chapter on page 56-59:
"The Initiate in the Dark Cycle"
http://home1.stofanet.dk/theos-octagon/The%20Initiate%20In%20The%20Dark%20Cycle.pdf
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Augoeides-222@comcast.net
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 11:03 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti on who are you
Morten,
I might reply in the context of Hodson's extract. I have a cultured view on the iteration he makes as to KM, the overshadowing of him by another presence that he characterizes as "The World Teacher that is now in our midst". He meant in my personal view the "Agency" that stepped into his animation of form known as Krishna Murti who, when that happened, stepped aside and became the observer like the rest of the people present. I experienced a similar manisfestation in 1976-81 and even later. I also witnessed many people extremely impacted by the given offered words of "The Vessal of Light". I even on several occasions posted some of them here on this forum over the last 10 years. I too witnessed many people enraptured in unremoveable concentration and rapport being moved to the point of tears rolling down their cheeks enmass not just by the words but also by the the unique remarkable rare and powerful energy radiated by the presence itself which performed penetration to the inner person. So in remembrance of what I was allowed to participate and receive then I understand that KM did not mean himself but what he became receptacle of. The Agency he meant was beyond his form, intellect and means in my view. I spent years near something just like this, but also quite different in nature and context. The person in my case would never claim he was the Agency that spoke through him, and I doubt Krishna Murti would have either. So one needs to keep the to Natures divided from each other. I coined the expression "Switching Gears" back in 1976-7 to characterize the change of contenance and vocalized voice that was completely different than the normal persons idioms and vocal sounds. The co-habitation in the beginning was marked and definite viz one to the other. Later it became very, very subtle, so much so that one could only know the Agency was present if one had known the everyday person intimately for extended period as I had. Others who had not this advantage thought there was only one person present when in fact they both were there, but so subtle discrimination was not part of the new casual observers ability. As Hodson said there was a spiritual influence emanating from KM , so it was also the fact with my direct experiance in this case. It was not scant or diffused energy but it impinged to the point you knew and felt the energy projected to all present. During this case at a certain time , at a certain place and in a state of "projection" and receptivity the "Vessel of Light" said taking his right hand "By this act we are joined for eternity" this established a continued "Rapport" that remained until his physical death on Jan. 20, 2009. In 1999 he said "I do not see my face in the return of the Children---- nontheless----- I do awake each day with the voice of " ------" within me." So it is plausible that this circumstance was also established alike in the case of Krishna Murti. In no way was it the personality normal in KM 's historical life. Just my personal POV.
Regards,
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk>
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 10:35:13 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti on who are you
Did you read my previous e-mail?
How can one learn to know one self without being guided and without comparative studying?
Is it safe to promote a psychological revolution inwardly without a guide?
1.
J. Krishnamurti said:
"I know that which I am; I know my purpose in life because I am Life itself without name, without limitation. And because I am Life I would urge you to worship that Life, not in this form that is Krishnamurti but the Life which dwells in each one of you. Put aside all the paraphernalia of beliefs, religions and ceremonies, and you will find the Truth."
(The seventh International Camp of the Order of the Star
held at Ommen, Holland, August 6th, 1928)
http://jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/1928-let-understanding-be-the-law/jiddu-krishnamurti-let-understanding-be-the-law-07.php
2.AN APPRECIATION OF C. W. LEADBEATER By Geoffrey Hodson
"As I have elsewhere written, I attended several of the Star Camps in Holland and was present when there was evidence of remarkable, if brief, supernormal manifestations. On more than one occasion some two thousand people from many parts of the world were gathered at Ommen to hear Krishnamurti. Each evening, all were seated in concentric circles round a large camp fire. Krishnamurti would arrive, take his place for a time, and then rise and apply a torch to the camp fire. As the flames arose against the evening sky he would chant a mantram to the god Agni, and return to his seat. Thereafter he would begin to speak, and on more than one occasion a noticeable change took place in him. His voice altered and his hitherto rather iconoclastic utterances gave way to a wonderful tenderness of expression and thought which induced in those present an elevation of consciousness. The Talks were followed by prolonged meditative silences. Many of those present, myself among them, bore testimony to the sense of divine peace which had descended, to a realization of the Presence of the Lord, and to an assurance that the prophecy had begun to be fulfilled. These phenomena occurred during some few successive years, the events being so marked that Krishnamurti himself there after changed the Objects of the Order of the Star in the East from, in effect, "To prepare for the coming of the Lord" to "To serve the World Teacher now that He is in our midst." I, myself, more than once heard Krishnamurti affirm that the great Teacher was now here and that the "Coming" had actually occurred. Even now when he is speaking, with others I discern a spiritual influence emanating from him, as if a great Being were still using him as a vehicle.This, however, does not constitute a complete fulfillment of the original prophecy."
www.theosophical.org/resources/articles/AppreciationofCWL.pdf (written around 1965)
A Nobody or Guru or Messiah or partly a Messiah? Unimportant to J. Krishnamurti?
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: christinaleestemaker
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:50 PM
Subject: Theos-World Krishnamurti on who are you
http://video.google.nl/videosearch?q=krishnamurti+on+whoam
+I&hl=nl&emb=0&aq=f#
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