Theos-Talk Archives (February 2009 Message tt00378)

Folks who can do certain things are often possessed of a wicked sense of  
humor and sometimes the jokes get taken seriously.
 
Chuck the Heretic
 
 
In a message dated 2/27/2009 3:40:38 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
schuller@alpheus.org writes:

 
 
 
Dear Daniel and Anand,

Maybe the truth is somewhere in a third  possibility in which everybody is 
seen as making both false and true  statements:

1) HPB did produce both genuine and fake phenomena and made  both true and 
false claims.

2) The Coulombs et al exposed some of the  fraud, and by doing so think they 
also refuted the genuine stuff

3) CWL  was both a clairvoyant and deluded/deluding  hoaxter

Therefore:

1) There is no sufficient basis to construe  HPB, CWL (or K for that matter) 
as 'sacred' persons and their writings as  'sacred' writings. It takes a leap 
of faith to do so, which is fine with me,  but it's still a leap.

2) There is no sufficient basis to think that  HPB, CWL (and K) are exposed 
as total frauds merely by finding some  fraud.

Personaly I think it's good to waver between intuitive faith and  rational 
doubt, even while sharpening both one's critical rational apparatus  and 
intuitive sense, and the flexibility to manage their interaction.  

Govert

=====================

For training purpose  I'd throw out the following and see how we'll deal with 
it:

HPB claimed  to have met Morya in August of 1851 somewhere in England. She 
initially had  told her friend Wachtmeister he meeting occured in Hyde Park 
(London), and in  her scrapbook she had written that it was Ramsgate (on the North 
Sea coast,  east from London, north from Dover). 

HPB: "Memorable night! On a  certain night by the light of the moon that was 
setting at Ramsgate on August  12, 1851,* when I met [symbol] the Master of my 
dreams!!" 

Accompanying  the text is a sketch of what looks like a seaside harbor. See; 
_http://www.katinkahhttp://wwhttp://www.kathttp://wwhttp://www.katinhttp:_ 
(http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v1/hlc_sketchbook.htm) 

The  discrepancy was explained by HPB as being a 'blind' or disinformation 
with  Ramsgate the blind for Hyde Park. 

Wachtmeister: "H.P.B. told me that  it was a blind, so that anyone casually 
taking up her book would not know  where she had met her Master, and that her 
first interview with him had been  in London as she had previously told me." 

Why it was important that  she had to disinform others about the spot is not 
clear and there is nothing  obvious about it. On the contrary, there doesn't 
seem to be any reason at all  for changing the location. What could be deduced 
form the location? And which  was the original spot and which one the blind? I 
ask this because it can be  the case that, once you allow such blinds, there 
is no reason to reject double  blinds, i.e. that in this case that it really 
was Ramsgate where HPB met the  Master of her dreams and Hyde Park was the 
blind, but then tells her friend it  was other way around. 

The above hypothesis I'm putting forward because  I recently acquired a short 
but very intriguing study that does put forward a  plausible explanation: 

S.B. Liljegren "Bulwer-Lytton'S.B. Liljegren "Bulwer-Lytton'<WBR>s Novels and 
 Isis Unveiled" (Uppsala - Copenhagen - Cambridge, MA: A.-B. Lundequistska  
Bokhandeln - Ejnar Munksgaard - 


Liljegren's proposal is that HPB in those days was very much  influenced by 
the novels of Bulwer-Lytton, to the point of having developed  something of an 
infatuation with the famous writer. With the help of Bulwer's  son Liljegren 
established the fact that Bulwer was at Ramsgate during that  summer. Both men 
found it "extremely probable" (p. 28) that, given Bulwer's  status and 
whereabouts and HPB's high regard for him, that HPB's Master of her  dreams was none 
other than the novelist and that she only merely saw him, but  never met.

Now, back to this 'blind' business and fill out the full  hypothesis: HPB had 
to use a double blind story about the actual wherabouts,  Ramsgate, of her 
meeting with her master, as the actual spot might have given  away the actual 
identity of this master, the novelist Bulwer-Lytton, as she  might have thought 
it to be generally known that he was there that summer. (On  top of that 
Bulwer's grandfather used to live close to Ramsgate and visited  him in his youth). 
So, HPB's scrapbook entry is true, then she tells  Wachtmeister it is a blind 
for Hyde Park, which story therefore by itself is  the real blind to cover up 
the plausible deduction that her master of her  dreams was a famous novelist 
and not an oriental prince, who recruited her for  her life's work. In this 
light the latter story then of course also becomes  problematic as it takes out 
one of the many parts that legitimize her life's  work. 

One way to possibly rescue the 1851 HPB-Morya meet is to  establish that the 
symbol she used for her master in her scrapbook could in no  way be construed 
as referring to Bulwer-Lytton. In the quotes used by others  (Goodrick-Clarke, 
Neff) the symbol is mostly reproduced as a capital m  followed by the masonic 
triangular dots: " M.'. " In the reproduction of the  scrapbook it actually 
looks more like "Mo.. " with the two dots just under and  to the right of the 
o. So, "Mo" could be short for Morya with the two dots  indicating something 
esoteric. (BTW, if it reads "Mo" that would more or less  refute Paul K. 
Johnson's idea that the M stood for Mazzini, the italian  nationalist who then 
resided in London). 

Any refutations or back-up  for the above elaborate conjecture?

[Non-text portions of this message  have been removed]



_Messages  in this topic _ 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/49178;_ylc=X3oDMTM2ODIyaWQxBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDg1MjEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1
MDc3MDc2BG1zZ0lkAzQ5MTc4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3Z0cGMEc3RpbWUDMTIzNTc3MDgyMQR0cGNJZA
M0OTE3OA--) (1)  _Reply (via web post) _ 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJxN2ZtdGg2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDg1MjEEZ3Jwc3BJZAM
xNzA1MDc3MDc2BG1zZ0lkAzQ5MTc4BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3JwbHkEc3RpbWUDMTIzNTc3MDgyMQ--?
act=reply&messageNum=49178) | _Start  a new topic _ 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNWp0cWJiBF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDg1MjEE
Z3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDc3MDc2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA250cGMEc3RpbWUDMTIzNTc3MDgyMQ--) 
_Messages_ 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/messages;_ylc=X3oDMTJlb2llcm90BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDg1MjEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDc3MDc2BHNlYwNmdHIEc
2xrA21zZ3MEc3RpbWUDMTIzNTc3MDgyMQ--)   

 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTJkb2YzdjY3BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDg1MjEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDc3MDc2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA2dmcARzdGltZQMxMjM1NzcwODIx) 
_Change  settings via the Web_ 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJmZGwyY3E4BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDg1MjEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDc3M
Dc2BHNlYwNmdHIEc2xrA3N0bmdzBHN0aW1lAzEyMzU3NzA4MjE-)  (Yahoo! ID required) 
Change settings via email:  _Switch  delivery to Daily Digest_ 
(mailto:theos-talk-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=Email Delivery: Digest)  | _Switch  format 
to Traditional_ (mailto:theos-talk-traditional@yahoogroups.com?subject=Change 
Delivery Format: Traditional)  
_Visit  Your Group _ 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk;_ylc=X3oDMTJkYTBibHN2BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDg1MjEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDc3MDc2BHNlYwNmdHIE
c2xrA2hwZgRzdGltZQMxMjM1NzcwODIx) | _Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use _ 
(http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/) | _Unsubscribe  _ 
(mailto:theos-talk-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=) 

 

 
Recent  Activity

_Visit  Your Group _ 
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk;_ylc=X3oDMTJlcGFzaHE1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE0BGdycElkAzIyNDg1MjEEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDc3MDc2BHNlYwN2dGwE
c2xrA3ZnaHAEc3RpbWUDMTIzNTc3MDgyMQ--) 
 
 
 
Y! Groups blog
_The  place to go_ 
(http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=14hdf9jma/M=493064.12016258.12582637.8674578/D=groups/S=1705077076:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1235778021/L=/B=eYPbAkPDhF
s-/J=1235770821399962/K=x9_PL57YRsH
FAWsov3IBUg/A=5191953/R=0/SIG=112mhte3e/*http://www.ygroupsblog.com/blog/)  
to stay informed 
on Groups news!
 
Yahoo! Groups
_Special  K Challenge_ 
(http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=14ivemlrl/M=493064.12016300.12445692.11323196/D=groups/S=1705077076:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1235778021/L=/B=eoPbA
kPDhFs-/J=1235770821399962/K=x9_PL57YRsHFAWsov3IBUg/A=5170418/R=0/SIG=11b5gu1o
e/*http://new.groups.yahoo.com/specialKgroup) Join others who  
are losing pounds.
 
Dog Fanatics
_on  Yahoo! Groups_ 
(http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=14hao3mus/M=493064.12016263.12445670.8674578/D=groups/S=1705077076:NC/Y=YAHOO/EXP=1235778021/L=/B=e4PbAkPDh
Fs-/J=1235770821399962/K=x9_PL57YRsHFAWsov3IBUg/A=4836045/R=0/SIG=11o19ppl5/*h
ttp://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/dogzone/index.html)  
Find people who are 
crazy about dogs.



.

**************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy 
steps! 
(http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecreditreport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID
%3D62%26bcd%3DfebemailfooterNO62)


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]