Theos-Talk Archives (February 2009 Message tt00242)

My views are:

Yes. Karma is important here. There are no "suddenness" without Karma allowing it.
When the sudden enlightenment happens, one becomes aware of what Occultism really is. Else we are not talking about - true - enlightenment as far as my knowledge goes. - It is just like, when we have a person, a Mathamatical genius, who is able to calculate almost any multiplying question you might pose. Yet he is at the same time color-blind.

The Law of Karma is strict. No - true - enlightenment unless one have learned what is needed in this Earth-cycle or Solar-cycle.
Appearnt enlightement happens. Some person are able clairvoyantes and have a lot of knowledge, but no compassion.



M. Sufilight



  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Augoeides-222@comcast.net 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 5:59 PM
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Krishnamurti on who are you


  Morten, 
  Thanks for your post and comments. 

  In SD Blavatsky had some comments on Mahayana Buddhism. Mahayana is called the "Sudden School". It is "Sudden" because they hold the view that each person is a living Buddha within and that at any time they can "Suddenly" capture, receive, attain, experience Illumination. They hold this view because they have observed it over the centuries and in some of the Sutra and other literature of the Tripitaka it tells of certain ones who attain in the above manner. One need not have a Guru or Teacher if one has the right combination of previous accumalations of merit, karma, destiny and other factors. Nor is it even necessary to hold any Religious membership whatever in this case. One may be an illerate unschooled scoundrol and because of karmic and other fruitions become completely enlightened "Suddenly". 

  In Tibetan school they teach that during the Bardo Thodol when one awakens from the swoon of death, the being can have perception of frightening visages of demons and other terrible presentations but are also instructed that these are but the self generated contents of their own mind productions, and like all else have no true reality as ephemeral transient impermanent illusions of mental energy that have no empowerment. A correlate of the "Sudden" Paradigm is found in other teaching in other Religions via the sudden reception of "Grace" which one may be receptive of receiving without ardous effort or conscious deeds in Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Shiviaism,Sikh, and others. 

  Regards, 
  John 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk> 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 8:08:54 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
  Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Krishnamurti on who are you 

  Dear friends 

  I would like to know if there are some examples from HPB or other theosophists telling us or stating, as something obvious, that when one walks the path, one can avoid to learn about Occultism. I have always had the opposite view on the issue. 

  Anyone? 

  M. Sufilight 

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: christinaleestemaker 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 11:19 PM 
  Subject: Theos-World Re: Krishnamurti on who are you 

  You Morten will tell me this is not theosophy!!! 
  Than you don't know what theosophy is. 
  Christina 

  --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com , "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global- 
  theosophy@...> wrote: 
  > 
  > I think I understand. But I think you also understand why I have to 
  disagree with you. 
  > Simply because my knowledge tells me different. And because the 
  theosophical teachings are saying it as well. 
  > 
  > 
  > M. Sufilight 
  > 
  > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > From: christinaleestemaker 
  > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  > Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 1:24 AM 
  > Subject: Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti on who are you 
  > 
  > 
  > I think I cannot help you, because your few is from another level. 
  > There is also Adi- anupudaka and after AtmaBuddhiManas.The ones 
  who 
  > are atmabuddhimanas can understand the higher states. 
  > And no one can tell me I don't know myself, also I cannot say 
  you , 
  > you don't know yourself, FOR I CANNOT KNOW THAT.UNDERSTAND? 
  > Christina 
  > 
  > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com , "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global- 
  > theosophy@> wrote: 
  > > 
  > > Dear Christina and friends 
  > > 
  > > My views are: 
  > > 
  > > Maybe I am ignorant. 
  > > Could you enlighten me, so that I may understand your view? 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > Well to us theosophists Atma = Brahma for each human being. 
  > Blavatsky said it several times. And so did her Masters. And 
  since 
  > Brahma knows about occultism. And since Atma is within you, even 
  if 
  > you would like it to go away I find your view difficult to agree 
  upon. 
  > > 
  > > But it is of course your choice if you find this view Atma = 
  Brahma 
  > to be false. 
  > > The most highest Divine is as far as I am aware within your 
  very 
  > own "I". 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > M. Sufiliight 
  > > 
  > > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > > From: christinaleestemaker 
  > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  > > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 9:35 PM 
  > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti on who are you 
  > > 
  > > 
  > > I never had heard so much nonsense.But oke it is yours. 
  > > Christina 
  > > 
  > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com , "Morten Nymann Olesen" 
  <global- 
  > > theosophy@> wrote: 
  > > > 
  > > > Dear Christina 
  > > > 
  > > > You cannot know yourself without learning about occultism. 
  > > > That must be logical. 
  > > > 
  > > > 
  > > > M. Sufilight 
  > > > 
  > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > > > From: christinaleestemaker 
  > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  > > > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 9:24 PM 
  > > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti on who are you 
  > > > 
  > > > 
  > > > You asked about knowing theyself and not on occultism. 
  > > > Since when is knowing theyself occultism, for you maybe, but 
  > not 
  > > for 
  > > > me. 
  > > > Christina 
  > > > 
  > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com , "Morten Nymann Olesen" 
  > <global- 
  > > > theosophy@> wrote: 
  > > > > 
  > > > > 
  > > > > So I take it, that you disagre with H. P. Blavatsky, the 
  > > Masters 
  > > > and a whole range of Seers from India, Tibet and other 
  > countries? 
  > > > > 
  > > > > H. P. Blavatsky is clearly stating, that Occultism is 
  > dangerous 
  > > to 
  > > > learn about without a guide. 
  > > > > Walking the path without learning about occultism is 
  > impossible. 
  > > > > So if you want to call me and others "dullheads," where 
  does 
  > it 
  > > > leave you, when not listening to those who have experienced 
  the 
  > > truth 
  > > > about it? 
  > > > > 
  > > > > 
  > > > > M. Sufilight 
  > > > > 
  > > > > 
  > > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > > > > From: christinaleestemaker 
  > > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  > > > > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 8:17 PM 
  > > > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Krishnamurti on who are you 
  > > > > 
  > > > > 
  > > > > Everyone have its own way and don't need a guide for 
  knowing 
  > > him 
  > > > or 
  > > > > herself, only the dullheads need!!! 
  > > > > Christina 
  > > > > 
  > > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com , "Morten Nymann Olesen" 
  > > <global- 
  > > > > theosophy@> wrote: 
  > > > > > 
  > > > > > Did you read my previous e-mail? 
  > > > > > How can one learn to know one self without being guided 
  and 
  > > > without 
  > > > > comparative studying? 
  > > > > > Is it safe to promote a psychological revolution inwardly 
  > > > without a 
  > > > > guide? 
  > > > > > 
  > > > > > 
  > > > > > 1. 
  > > > > > J. Krishnamurti said: 
  > > > > > "I know that which I am; I know my purpose in life 
  because 
  > I 
  > > am 
  > > > > Life itself without name, without limitation. And because I 
  > am 
  > > > Life I 
  > > > > would urge you to worship that Life, not in this form that 
  is 
  > > > > Krishnamurti but the Life which dwells in each one of you. 
  > Put 
  > > > aside 
  > > > > all the paraphernalia of beliefs, religions and ceremonies, 
  > and 
  > > > you 
  > > > > will find the Truth." 
  > > > > > (The seventh International Camp of the Order of the Star 
  > > > > > held at Ommen, Holland, August 6th, 1928) 
  > > > > > 
  > > > > > http://jiddu-krishnamurti.net/en/1928-let-understanding- 
  be- 
  > > the- 
  > > > law/ 
  > > > > jiddu-krishnamurti-let-understanding-be-the-law-07.php 
  > > > > > 
  > > > > > 
  > > > > > 2.AN APPRECIATION OF C. W. LEADBEATER By Geoffrey Hodson 
  > > > > > 
  > > > > > "As I have elsewhere written, I attended several of the 
  > Star 
  > > > Camps 
  > > > > in Holland and was present when there was evidence of 
  > > remarkable, 
  > > > if 
  > > > > brief, supernormal manifestations. On more than one 
  occasion 
  > > some 
  > > > two 
  > > > > thousand people from many parts of the world were gathered 
  at 
  > > > Ommen 
  > > > > to hear Krishnamurti. Each evening, all were seated in 
  > > concentric 
  > > > > circles round a large camp fire. Krishnamurti would arrive, 
  > > take 
  > > > his 
  > > > > place for a time, and then rise and apply a torch to the 
  camp 
  > > > fire. 
  > > > > As the flames arose against the evening sky he would chant 
  a 
  > > > mantram 
  > > > > to the god Agni, and return to his seat. Thereafter he 
  would 
  > > > begin to 
  > > > > speak, and on more than one occasion a noticeable change 
  took 
  > > > place 
  > > > > in him. His voice altered and his hitherto rather 
  > iconoclastic 
  > > > > utterances gave way to a wonderful tenderness of expression 
  > and 
  > > > > thought which induced in those present an elevation of 
  > > > consciousness. 
  > > > > The Talks were followed by prolonged meditative silences. 
  > Many 
  > > of 
  > > > > those present, myself among them, bore testimony to the 
  sense 
  > > of 
  > > > > divine peace which had descended, to a realization of the 
  > > > Presence of 
  > > > > the Lord, and to an assurance that the prophecy had begun 
  to 
  > be 
  > > > > fulfilled. These phenomena occurred during some few 
  > successive 
  > > > years, 
  > > > > the events being so marked that Krishnamurti himself there 
  > > after 
  > > > > changed the Objects of the Order of the Star in the East 
  > from, 
  > > in 
  > > > > effect, "To prepare for the coming of the Lord" to "To 
  serve 
  > > the 
  > > > > World Teacher now that He is in our midst." I, myself, more 
  > > than 
  > > > once 
  > > > > heard Krishnamurti affirm that the great Teacher was now 
  here 
  > > and 
  > > > > that the "Coming" had actually occurred. Even now when he 
  is 
  > > > > speaking, with others I discern a spiritual influence 
  > emanating 
  > > > from 
  > > > > him, as if a great Being were still using him as a 
  > > vehicle.This, 
  > > > > however, does not constitute a complete fulfillment of the 
  > > > original 
  > > > > prophecy." 
  > > > > > www.theosophical.org/resources/articles/ 
  > AppreciationofCWL.pdf 
  > > > > (written around 1965) 
  > > > > > 
  > > > > > 
  > > > > > A Nobody or Guru or Messiah or partly a Messiah? 
  > Unimportant 
  > > to 
  > > > J. 
  > > > > Krishnamurti? 
  > > > > > 
  > > > > > 
  > > > > > 
  > > > > > M. Sufilight 
  > > > > > 
  > > > > > 
  > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- 
  > > > > > From: christinaleestemaker 
  > > > > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  > > > > > Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2009 6:50 PM 
  > > > > > Subject: Theos-World Krishnamurti on who are you 
  > > > > > 
  > > > > > 
  > > > > > http://video.google.nl/videosearch?q=krishnamurti+on+whoam 
  > > > > > +I&hl=nl&emb=0&aq=f# 
  > > > > > 
  > > > > > 
  > > > > > 
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