Theos-Talk Archives (February 2009 Message tt00044)

Dear Frank

Thank you for your response.

As I mentioned earlier, we will have to respectfully disagree, 
although there doesn't appear to be much respect from your 
direction.

Regards
Nigel 

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" <dzyan@...> 
wrote:
>
> Dear Nigel,
> 
> in the same way you read HPB you may also read the Holy Bible or 
the Lotus Sutra or the Bhagavad Gita.
> To me you have not quoted her exactly, you just have given the 
letter, not the spirit.
> It is only your mindset that you are under the illusion that HPB 
wrote what you think.
> 
> And you have not explained of which sub-race HPB in your quote 
speaks.
> 
> It seems you have no idea what esotericism is or what a blind is, 
alsthough HPB explained it several times and although HPB openly 
stated somewhere in the Secret Doctrine that all numbers and figures 
concerning cycles are not given openly.
> 
> Nowhere said any of HPB's Mahatmas that we are in the 5th sub-race 
as Besant did.
> The reason is that the Mahatmas grasp the teachings they teach.
> They know that -as HPB also wrote - that the middle point of the 
sub-race and their cataclysms come in 16,000 years from now.
> That alone is sufficent alone for the thinking part of the 
theosophists to know in which sub-race we are.
> 
> You seem not to consider that there is more knowledge as you have 
observed so far. That is Hinayana, while HPB served the Mahayana path.
> 
> Frank
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: nhcareyta 
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
> Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 1:10 AM
> Subject: Theos-World Re: 4th sub-race
> 
> 
> Dear Frank
> 
> You write, "But you are free to have your own interpretation 
> of HPB."
> 
> Thank you. But I am merely quoting exactly what she has written 
> and do not see any "blinds" that you suggest. Moreover the quotes 
> from the Mahatmas appear to verify her statements.
> 
> Regards
> Nigel 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" <dzyan@> 
> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Frank,
> > my English seems to bad that you understand me.
> > I do not need to find another quote of HPB, because your 
> interpretation of the quote is wrong.
> > Why should I therefore find another quote?
> > 
> > Obviously, you would like Besant this second quote also in a dead-
> letter sense.
> > 
> > Shall a repeat all arguments I already have written?
> > 
> > While you give little credence in the writings of de Purucker, it 
> seems you give more credence into your own interpretation of HPB.
> > 
> > Not that it could be not the case that you have more insight into 
> the esoteric philosophy than de Purucker, only so far you have 
> presented no proof or even hint except your dead-letter 
> interpretation.
> > 
> > Bearing in mind, that we in the meantime had two world-wars, in 
> which the question of the race played also a role, and that now 64 
of 
> the last physical war are gone, from a theosophical point of view 
it 
> seems strange, that the misunderstandings among theosophists 
continue 
> into the 21th century.
> > 
> > Your argument - in contrast to what I have written before - looks 
> fanatic and proud. But you are free to have your own interpretation 
> of HPB.
> > 
> > Frank
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: nhcareyta 
> > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 2:15 PM
> > Subject: Theos-World Re: 4th sub-race
> > 
> > 
> > Dear Frank
> > 
> > Thank you for your reply.
> > 
> > For some reason you have introduced Dr Besant, Bishop 
> > Leadbeater and Dr Purucker's interpretations.
> > 
> > I place little credence in much of their writings, but that is 
> > largely irrelevant to the point I was offering.
> > 
> > Again, you write, "But true Theosophy teaches that we are 
> > before the middle point of the 4th sub-race."
> > 
> > Madame Blavatsky wrote as quoted, ""But we are in the 
> > 5th race, and we have already passed the turning or axial point 
> > of our "sub-race cycle."
> > 
> > There are 7 sub-races. 
> > 
> > The fourth is the middle or axial sub-race, being between the 
> > first and last 3.
> > 
> > From my understanding, a sub-race cycle is the period and 
> > processing of all 7 sub-races. 
> > 
> > Madame Blavatsky is saying we are passed the middle point 
> > of the sub-race cycle. 
> > 
> > This could indicate we are past the middle point of the fourth 
> > sub-race itself or, from my understanding, we are actually 
> > past the fourth sub-race altogether and are unfolding and 
> > evolving through the fifth of the total sub-race cycle. 
> > 
> > Whichever, it does not seem to indicate we are before any of 
> > these stages.
> > 
> > It appears we will have to respectfully disagree at this stage, 
> > unless you can find a quote from Madame Blavatsky which negates 
> > or casts further light on this perspective.
> > 
> > Thank you again.
> > 
> > Regards
> > Nigel
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" <dzyan@> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Nigel,
> > > no, I will surely not agree as we speak here of two different 
> > things.
> > > 
> > > If you consider what HPB writes before and after your quotation 
> > about the calculation of the sub-races, you will be aware that 
HPB 
> > refers to our sub-race cycle within the subrace.
> > > So Besant knew nothing about this esoteric blind of HPB and 
> > believed in the dead-letter she found in the book.
> > > 
> > > Below I give one of many possible quotes from Gottfried de 
> Purucker 
> > about Besant's mistake from his "Studies". In 
> > his "Fundamentals, "Dialogues" and "Occult Glossary" other quotes 
> can 
> > be found, that Besant and Leadbeater made a miscalculation about 
> the 
> > races.
> > > 
> > > So considering that HPB used blinds - which is to be expected 
by 
> > the most occult doctrine of the races, the cardinal dogma of the 
> > Masters - how trustworthy are then the teachings of Besant and 
> > Leadbeater on the races? And how trustworthy are their teachings 
> > regarding other topics of which we may not have first-hand 
> > information of de Purucker or another messenger of the Masters?
> > > 
> > > Is this then the "true Theosophy" of which Anand speaks?
> > > Frank
> > > 
> > > http://www.theosociety.org/pasadena/soph/sopqa06.htm
> > > Sub-Races of the Fifth Root-Race
> > > I have been a reader of Theosophical literature for a number of 
> > years and have understood from the teachings that we are now in 
the 
> > fifth Sub-Race of the Fifth Root-Race. But I read in Dr. de 
> > Purucker's illuminating book, FUNDAMENTALS OF THE ESOTERIC 
> > PHILOSOPHY, that this is a mistake; that we have not even reached 
> the 
> > middle of the fourth Sub-Race; and that earlier teaching has been 
> an 
> > intentional blind on this point. 
> > > 
> > > The present condition of the world certainly suggests that we 
are 
> > not a whole sub-race beyond the "acme of materiality." But if 
such 
> is 
> > the case, why was it necessary to withhold this teaching until 
> today? 
> > And why are we more ready to receive it now than fifty years ago? 
> Can 
> > anything further be said on this subject? 
> > > 
> > > The questioner, on the whole, has correctly understood my 
various 
> > references to the matter of the Races. It is, however, erroneous 
to 
> > suppose that the teaching concerning this matter has 
> been 'withheld' 
> > until today; and, consequently, the above statement suggesting 
that 
> > we are now more ready to receive the teachings than others were 
> fifty 
> > years ago is likewise a mistake. I would also like to point out 
> that 
> > the earlier teaching on this matter was not "an intentional 
blind"; 
> > but H. P. B.'s teachings regarding the Races as given in The 
Secret 
> > Doctrine, have not been in all respects properly understood. 
> > > 
> > > In Fundamentals of the Esoteric Philosophy, on page 239, I have 
> > treated of this matter at sufficient length, it seems to me, 
> although 
> > briefly; and I suggest that the questioner and others who may be 
> > interested in the facts, turn to H. P. B.'s The Secret Doctrine 
and 
> > especially to its Volume One, page 610, and ponder over the very 
> > clear and definite statements therein made. 
> > > 
> > > "The acme of materiality in each" Race is always the fourth 
stage 
> > or sub-race "or central point," e.g., the fourth Sub-Race of any 
> Root-
> > Race. Further, H. P. B. on this page of The Secret Doctrine says 
> very 
> > clearly that "we are in the mid-point of our Sub-Race of the 
Fifth 
> > Root-Race -- the acme of materiality in each -- therefore the 
> animal 
> > propensities, though more refined," etc. Now, these words, "the 
> acme 
> > of materiality in each" solve the problem instantly, because two 
> > things are here referred to: the Fifth Root-Race and its "acme of 
> > materiality" which is the fourth Sub-Race; and, again, "the mid-
> point 
> > of our Sub-Race. It should be clear enough to anybody that being 
at 
> > the point where the "acme of materiality" in each is found, this 
> > places us therefore at, or nearing the middle point of, the 
fourth 
> > Sub-Race of the Fifth Root-Race. However, as there are always 
> cycles 
> > within cycles, and smaller cycles again within these, even a 
fourth 
> > sub-race has its upward rises towards a relative intellectual 
> > development or a relative spiritual development, and also its 
> > descents thereafter. 
> > > 
> > > Since the discovery of America, we have been on the upward rise 
> of 
> > a small minor cycle within the fourth Sub-Race; and this accounts 
> for 
> > the great development in brain-mind intellectuality and for the 
> > flowering of material energies which the most myopic of modern 
> > individuals can see the signs of around us everywhere. 
> > > 
> > > To speak more accurately, we are at the present time actually 
> > passing through a small fifth subordinate race, forming part of a 
> > Family-Race, which in its turn is part of the fourth Sub-Race, 
> which 
> > is the lowest great sub-race of the Fifth Root-Race. 
> > > 
> > > Again, as every industrious student of the archaic Wisdom knows 
> who 
> > has pondered over the statements in H. P. B.'s The Secret 
Doctrine, 
> > every Root-Race, when its time comes, is cut in two in its middle 
> > part, i.e., at about the middle point of its fourth Sub-Race, as 
> > Atlantis was, and as Lemuria was. Such racial catastrophe 
obviously 
> > has not yet befallen us of the Fifth Root-Race; and the deduction 
> is 
> > of course immediate and obvious: we have not yet reached the 
middle 
> > point of the fourth Sub-Race of the Fifth Root-Race -- although 
we 
> > are not far from this middle point. 
> > > 
> > > H. P. B. in The Secret Doctrine furthermore shows that the 
karmic 
> > geologic destiny of Europe -- when the final closing of many 
racial 
> > accounts will take place -- requires some sixteen thousand or 
more 
> > years before that event, a geologic racial catastrophe, reaches 
its 
> > maximum. But meanwhile, "coming events cast their shadows 
before"; 
> > and very serious seismic, tidal, and other catastrophic events 
will 
> > happen to certain European countries between now and the sixteen 
> > thousand years period of grace that Europe still has. H. P. B. 
has 
> > alluded to these events on several occasions in her writings, as 
in 
> > The Theosophist in an article later republished in Five Years of 
> > Theosophy, and also in articles in her Lucifer, in which places 
she 
> > calls attention to tidal waves and disastrous earthquakes that 
are 
> > already occurring, and clearly pointing to what will come in the 
> > future. 
> > > 
> > > Were we now in the fifth Sub-Race, as some have mistakenly 
> > supposed, we should have passed the cutting in two of our Fifth 
> Root-
> > Race; but this last has not occurred. The conclusion is therefore 
> > obvious. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: nhcareyta 
> > > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 10:40 AM
> > > Subject: Theos-World Re: 4th sub-race
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Dear Frank
> > > 
> > > You write, "But true Theosophy teaches that we are before the 
> > > middle point of the 4th sub-race."
> > > 
> > > However Madame Blavatsky writes, "But we are in the 5th race, 
> > > and we have already passed the turning or axial point of our 
> > > "sub-race cycle."
> > > Occult Or Exact Science?
> > > [The Theosophist, Vol. VII, No. 79, April, 1886, pp. 422-431]
> > > 
> > > As the fourth sub-race is the "axial point", it would appear 
> > > we are past this.
> > > 
> > > Would you agree?
> > > 
> > > Regards
> > > Nigel
> > > 
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Reitemeyer" <dzyan@> 
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Anand wrote:
> > > > >Theosophical Society, under Annie Besant, and with it's pure
> > > > Theosophy, was a huge success because that time Krishnamurti 
> had 
> > not
> > > > distorted teachings in TS.
> > > > 
> > > > Besant brought merely exoteric distortions and second-hand 
> > > Theosophy, while 
> > > > Blavatsky brought first-hand Theosophy.
> > > > Besant and Leadbeater taught that we are preparing for the 
5th 
> > sub-
> > > race, 
> > > > while the 4th sub-race, which they believed are the German, 
is 
> > soon 
> > > dying 
> > > > out.
> > > > 
> > > > This could be the pseudo-theosophical rationale for Besant to 
> > drum 
> > > for war 
> > > > against Germany in The Theosophist in the very smear words 
the 
> > > Masons used 
> > > > in 1870 and repeated in 1889 in Paris, as published by Karl 
> > Heise, 
> > > co-worker 
> > > > of Steiner.
> > > > 
> > > > But true Theosophy teaches that we are before the middle 
point 
> of 
> > > the 4th 
> > > > sub-race.
> > > > 
> > > > Could it be that Besant's and Leadbeater's wrong calculation 
of 
> > the 
> > > races 
> > > > and sub-races led them to racism against innocent Germans?
> > > > Members with German origin or German sounding names were 
> > persecuted 
> > > by them 
> > > > under their Antigermanism hype.
> > > > 
> > > > Individuals persecuted for the only reason that they belong 
to 
> a 
> > > wrong race. 
> > > > Is that Anand's "pure Theosophy"?
> > > > 
> > > > Frank
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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