Theos-Talk Archives (February 2009 Message tt00028)

Dear Anand,

You stated:

"When Blavatsky and Masters founded TS, they did not found the TS with
the object "work for Christ". They had set three objects which are
different. Although all work is Christ's work, there are different
projects that work independently. Theosophy and World-Teacher project
are different. They should not be mixed."

This might not be entirely true. HPB did have a special messenger in
mind who would use the TS as avehicle to accomplish things even beyond
what had already been accomplished:

"If the present attempt, in the form of our Society, succeeds better
than its predecessors have done, then it will be in existence as an
organized, living and healthy body when the time comes for the effort
of the XXth century. The general condition of men's minds and hearts
will have been improved and purified by the spread of its teachings,
and, as I have said, their prejudices and dogmatic illusions will have
been, to some extent at least, removed. Not only so, but besides a
large and accessible literature ready to men's hands, the next impulse
will find a numerous and united body of people ready to welcome the
new torch-bearer of Truth. He will find the minds of men prepared for
his message, a language ready for him in which to clothe the new
truths he brings, an organization awaiting his arrival, which will
remove the merely mechanical, material obstacles and difficulties from
his path. Think how much one, to whom such an opportunity is given,
could accomplish" (Key, 306-307)

Besant, CWL interpreted this as applying to Krishnmaurti, with which I
concur. Meanwhile, as the WT project floundered, we have to look for
the 20th century effort as sponsored by the Masters.

Govert

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Anand" <AnandGholap@...> wrote:
>
> Very fact that Radha Burnier wanted P. Krishna to become President of
> the TS proves that she is of the opinion that Theosophy is less
> important and TS should promote Krishnamurty's philosophy. When her
> real motives are now known to followers of Theosophy, they should
> remove her from the office and install a person who is true
> Theosophist and not a Krishnamurtian. Unfortunately Radha, who is a
> shrewd politician, has taken care that no true Theosophist can become
> so strong in TS that he would defeat her or her cousin P. Krishna. She
> deliberately suppressed members who were true Theosophists and saw
> that they don't become strong and don't control the TS. Her plan for
> many years was to hand over Theosophical Society to Krishnamurtians,
> who would use it to promote Krishnamurti's teaching. Radha does not
> understand spiritual things well.
> Annie Besant and Leadbeater wanted to make the path ready for the
> Christ. If we assume that Christ taught through Krishnamurti, and if
> he was real Christ, then He will accomplish His mission through
> Krishnamurti Foundation. There is no need for Theosophical Society to
> involve in that work. Christ is capable to do His work through His
> organization. But World Teacher project failed, Christ found that
> Krishnamurti was not co-operating with Him. 
> If you have studied Bible, you will know that Jesus had to willingly
> co-operate with the will of Christ. When Jesus was about to be
> crucified, he said "Father, please take this cup (of death) away from
> me, but let your will be done and not mine". It means even if Jesus
> had free will, he co-operated with the Father. Work depended on the
> Father and co-operation of Jesus.
>  In case of Krishnamurti, project failed because Krishnamurti could
> not become proper vehicle for the work of the Christ.
> John, the baptist, started his work before Jesus in order to make the
> path ready for Jesus Christ. After Jesus came and started his work,
> John did not interfere in Jesus' work. Prophet John knew that his work
> was only to make the path and not to involve in the work of Jesus. 
> Radha is wrongly thinking that her job is to involve in the work of
> Krishnamurti. TS made path for Krishnamurti, what happens next is not
> the responsibility of the TS. 
> When Blavatsky and Masters founded TS, they did not found the TS with
> the object "work for Christ". They had set three objects which are
> different. Although all work is Christ's work, there are different
> projects that work independently. Theosophy and World-Teacher project
> are different. They should not be mixed. 
> In India, there are many different spiritual traditions. As I was
> interested in spirituality from young age, I got involved in some of
> them. I am a Christian and I appreciate Christian spirituality. But,
> despite my contacts with different spiritual traditions, I don't mix
> one spiritual tradition with the other. 
> Radha does not understand the point that different spiritual
> traditions have different methods, and so they should not be mixed.
> Radha is sacrificing Theosophical Society for J. Krishnamurti, who had
> failed, and through whom Christ did not work.
> In last many years Radha has indirectly pressured officers to study
> and promote Krishnamurti's teaching. That is why you see many officers
> study Krishnamurti also. In Esoteric School also Radha had promoted
> Krishnamurti's books. The teaching in Krishnamurti's books is exactly
> opposite of what Theosophy of Leadbeater and Blavatsky taught.
> Leadbeater himself rejected Krishnamurti's basic teaching 'Truth is
> pathless land, there is no path'. 
> There are reasons why current officers in TS respect Krishnamurti.
> First reason is Radha is promoting K and his teaching. And there was
> indirect warning which officers under her understood. This warning was
>  'I (Radha) is head of the ES and TS. If you want to hold high posts,
> you do what I say. I say that you study Krishnamurti and promote his
> teaching, whether you like it or not'. Officers in TS know this
> Radha's hidden language and they do what she says because of
> attraction of posts and some think that if ES head is telling, it is
> their duty to obey the commands. 
> Radha did not promote true and pure Theosophists to high posts because
> they did not promote Krishnamurti. Her real motive during her
> Presidency of the TS was to promote Krishnamurti's teaching. Before
> becoming President of the TS, Radha was working for Krishnamurti and
> was devoted to him. People might wonder if Radha was devoted to
> Krishnamurti, why did she come to TS and became it's President? 
>  It can be speculated that Radha became President of the TS so that
> she will slowly make Theosophical Society work for Krishnamurti. It is
> a kind of conspiracy, but this possibility can not be denied as we see
> that Radha wants Krishnamurtian to become President of the TS. This
> conspiracy can be proved because Radha herself said that she became
> President of the TS because J. Krishnamurti asked her to do so. That
> means J. Krishnamurti planted his follower in TS, so that he can use
> TS for his purpose. 
> Theosophical Society, under Annie Besant, and with it's pure
> Theosophy, was a huge success because that time Krishnamurti had not
> distorted teachings in TS. TS should stick to true Theosophy and  if
> it does so, it will succeed.
> Radha Burnier will die in few years and will get her reward for
> promoting Krishnamurti's satanic teachings. John Algeo, Betty Bland
> etc. are not right candidates for the Presidentship. 
> There are some good Theosophical leaders in India, but Radha has
> intentionally suppressed them. She does not want them to challenger
> her or P. Krishna in election. But as Radha has few years, members
> should remove Krishnamurtians from the TS and elect a true Theosophist
> as President of the TS.
> In my opinon, this new President of the TS should be from India,
> because I have not seen satisfactory Theosophical talent abroad.
> 
> Best wishes.
> Anand Gholap
> 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Govert Schuller" <schuller@> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Anand,
> > 
> > I do not think you have to speculate about Radha Burnier's secret
> > plans. First, because, as pointed out, it's very hard to really know
> > anybody's motives, and, second, because it's not very kind nor
> > productive to try to do so. Thirdly, there is no necessity to try to
> > read Radha Burnier's mind as far as her opinion of K is concerned,
> > because she has been very open about that. 
> > 
> > You're right though to sound the alarm about any lob-sided promotion
> > of K's teachings and any lob-sided promotion of Krishnamurtian
> > Theosophists into high office. 
> > 
> > The TS should stay as neutral as possible in the question  on the
> > truth and value of teachings that are perceived as following up or
> > complementing HPB's original output. At this moment it is my tested
> > hypothesis that Krishnamurti receives undue preferential treatment and
> > that teachers like Bailey, Steiner and Hodson have to take the back
> > seat while teachers like Scott, Anrias, Ballard and Prophet are left
> > in the cold. I have no problem with any Theosophist thinking that K is
> > the expected world teacher or that his teachings are of utmost
> > importance. The problem is that it looks like that that idea is now
> > endowed with a semi-official, even sacred, status and that promoting K
> > is part of a semi-official agenda. How this came about, and what role
> > the ES played in this and to what extent secrecy was involved are
> > legitimate questions, but can only be answered on the basis of factual
> > research. 
> > 
> > At the same time there should be some balanced discussion about real
> > or perceived conflicts of interest of Theosophists in leadership
> > position, who are also involved in other organizations. I think the
> > concrete case to start with is the promotion by PTS Burnier of her
> > cousin Prof Krishna as her successor while both are or were heavily
> > involved in Krishnamurti's work in India. The fact that Burnier
> > decided to run again for the PTS position after Prof Krishna had
> > declined the offer is to me an indication that she was looking for a
> > successor with specific qualifications and was not looking for merely
> > a competent succesor, as John Algeo certainly would have been. The
> > fact that Prof Krishna declined on grounds of not being sufficiently
> > knowledgeable about Theosophy also has to be factored in. 
> > 
> > Krishnamurtian Theosophists might have been thrilled at the prospect
> > of Prof Krishna at the helm of the TS, others not so. Certainly not
> > me.  To me it all looked like that PTS Burnier was ready to throw the
> > TS into the lap of the KFI. This might be overstating the case, but
> > makes my point clear. Said in a different way would be to formulate my
> > perception as follows: The TS, as a relatively drifting organization,
> > is hitching a ride with the Krishnamurti movement, or, is latching its
> > destiny to that of the Krishnamurti movement as the latter, at this
> > moment, has a stronger sense of purpose. 
> > 
> > Maybe the best way to bring out the problematic part of the situation
> > is by imagining how it would look if PTS Burnier and Prof Krishna had
> > been deeply involved in Bailey's Lucis Trust or Steiner's
> > Anthroposophical Society.  Or, alternatively, how would the Danish
> > section have fared if they had been committed to Krishnamurti in the
> > same extent as they apparently were to Bailey, for which they got in
> > so much trouble.  Are there some in the TS measuring with a double, or
> > even triple, set of standards? One set for those in the K-camp, one
> > set for those in the non- or contra-K camp and one set for general
> > membership and public consumption? 
> > 
> > Until proven the contrary I cannot assign secret machinations to those
> > who became the pro-K  movers and shakers in the TS. For now I perceive
> > the TS-K situation as the outcome of thousands of personal decisions
> > taken in good faith, but guided by unfounded conclusions regarding K's
> > teachings and metaphysical status. At the same time I think K himself
> > did act in bad faith towards the TS by opportunistically manipulating
> > the TS with contradictory statements regarding his past relationship
> > with the TS (the TS did not `touch' him even while he had been a
> > committed theosophist and promoter), his memory (claims to have
> > forgotten and is caught to have had a fine memory), the Theosophical
> > teachings (claims not to know anything about them, but still regards
> > them as utterly false), and his own metaphysical status (both denies
> > and claims messiah-hood). Obviously there is a problem and it will not
> > do to just acknowledge those parts in the relationship that harmonize.
> > A more neutral, consistent and  balanced Theosophical investigation is
> > called for. 
> > 
> > Peace 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Anand" <AnandGholap@> wrote:
> > >
> > > There is one secrete plan in Radha Burnier's head. Most members in
> > > Theosophical Society are not aware of it. 
> > > Radha had intentionally been promoting many Krishnamurtian's to high
> > > posts in last many years. She made many Theosophists to study and
> > > preach J. Krishnamurti's teaching in TS. As Radha had been head
of the
> > > Esoteric School and also the President, many of these Theosophists
> > > believed in her advice of studying and spreading Krishnamurti's
> > > teaching.  These Theosophists did not suspect plan in Radha's head,
> > > and innocently did what she wanted them to do.  Those
Theosophists who
> > > were earlier studying Blavatsky's and Leadbeater's teaching
> > > considerably gave up reading and spreading teaching of these
> > > Theosophists. I am told by reliable sources that even in Esoteric
> > > School, Theosophy is not being given importance, and J.
Krishnamurti's
> > > teaching is being promoted. 
> > > P. Krishna, a hardcore Krishnamurtian is being promoted in TS. 
> > > This secrete plan has been there in Radha's head for many years,
> > > though nobody noticed it. 
> > > Members of the TS are hereby warned about danger that lies ahead. If
> > > members are careful and if they make determined efforts to throw out
> > > teaching of J. Krishnamurti, they will be able to save the TS and 
> > > will be able to work for the mission of spreading true Theosophy.
> > > 
> > > Best wishes.
> > > Anand Gholap
> > >
> >
>