Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
Jan 16, 2009 11:02 PM
by Cass Silva
Morten,
I agree that Advaita is not for the western mind - I am not holding up Krishnamurti as my Guru - simply saying that what he had to say about the personal self was a contribution to my spiritual path - I did not take his teachings any further than that aspect. Sathya Sai Baba also has his skeptics as this Wikipedia extract shows.
Cass
Sceptics and opponents
Main article Allegations against Sathya Sai Baba
Sceptics say claims about Sai Baba are unproven or false. They say that his âmiraclesâ are performed by sleight of hand; his devotees have imagined his bilocation âappearancesâ; his reincarnation claims are dubious and unverified; his teachings are unoriginal, often mere platitudes and unremarkable; and that his charity projects are exaggerated, and in part, a front for money-laundering and other personal gain of the coterie of the top of the organizations who know the Baba to be a cheater.
In 1993 four people who were armed with knives were killed after they had intruded in Sai Baba's bedroom. The main body of Indian journalists investigating the ashram murders in 1993 were unable to obtain more than very sparse information on the Central Trust's accounts and dealings. The drinking water projects were claimed to be the result of Sai Baba's "Divine Will". However, they have largely failed to function in most of the villages due to a sinking water table, contractor corruption, and failure to arrange for maintenance. Due to this, the Rayalaseema project had to be taken over by the Andhra Pradesh State government.
Some ex-devotees including the American Glen Meloy accuse him of being a cult leader who uses mind control, and propaganda and who has created a personality cult. Other critics say that school records revealed several different birth dates for the boy (under his original name Sathyanarayana Raju) and suggest that he invented the 23 November 1926 day of birth because on 24 November the famed Hindu philosopher-mystic Sri Aurobindo said that the Divine had descended on Earth.
Another critic, ex-devotee and retired researcher/lecturer in philosophy, University of Oslo, the former national coordinator of the organization in Norway, Robert Priddy, has pointed out that Sathya Sai Baba's assertions on many subjects exhibit basic ignorance of physics, geology, religious history and much more. For example, Sai Baba's 'teaching' on magnetism differs greatly from generally accepted science, being wholly incommensurate with many simple and basic known facts.
Additionally, the Australian ex-follower and scholar Brian Steel has documented strong indications that the original Telugu discourses by Baba have been heavily edited to improve them. Followers were given the impression, if not explicitly told, that the discourses published in the Sathya Sai Speaks series were the literal translation of what the guru said. Steel also wrote that many authors who wrote or still write positive books about Baba did not fulfill their responsibility of adherence to basic intellectual, journalistic and scholarly standards and hence may unintentionally misguide both followers and the general public. He contends that the claims of Baba about himself fluctuate and are inconsistent. He has recently discovered a trend to tone down the extraordinary claims that the guru makes about himself which Steel thinks is done to avoid embarrassment and loss of credibility.
There are also critics who allege that he has sexual relations with young men and boys among his followers, and has done so for more than forty years. No Indian court of law has accepted any case on sexual abuse by Baba. Nor have any of the alleged victims filed charges in the appropriate district. This may be due to the perceived status of the Baba as being too powerful, with supporters throughout the High Courts and the judiciary in India. Besides there is a testimony by Jens Senthi who claimed to have been sexually abused by the Baba but who was treated as a criminal by the Puttaparthi police. Supporters of Baba say the allegations are baseless rumors created with the malicious intention of sabotaging the guru's work. Top official of the Sathya Sai Organisation's Central Coordinator of Europe, ThorbjÃrn Meyer, have confirmed in public that Sai Baba regularly takes down boys and young men's trousers and oils their genitals. This is an illegal act,
also done without consent. Much worse abuses are described by dozens of young men in affidavits, also published widely on the internet and backed up by filmed testimonies in films, including the BBC's 1-hour documentary film Secret Swami, aired on 17 June, 2004.
Critics include the Indian atheist and sceptic Basava Premanand ("Lure of miracles" and "Divine Octopus") [10], and the Welsh ex-devotee musician David Bailey who compiled âThe Findingsâ in the year 2000. This document shocked followers worldwide.
The media and governments
Several media articles have appeared on the guru. The Sunday Telegraph of Britain published "Divine Downfall" in October 2000, a well-researched article reporting interviews with one of SSB's closest associates and alleged sexual partners, Dr. N. Bhatia, formerly employed in the SSB Super-Speciality hospital. Dr. Bhatia stated that an underage student he examined had been raped by Sai Baba and that he had confronted him about it. Directly thereafter Dr. Bhatia was accused of fraud and sexual offences and forced to leave his work and the ashram. Dr. Bhatia, like several former devotees, had written a very positive book about Sai Baba without mentioning any sexual allegations. Many devotees feel that persons who change their story regarding their initial account cannot possibly be credible. While making allegations Dr. Bhatia, who is married, at the same time still admitted he believed Sai Baba is God and has divine powers. The article was republished in
other papers [1]Â(http://www.saiguru.net/english/media/001028divine.htm). One of the more important critical articles was a front page article in the nationwide India Today magazine called "A God accused" on 4 December, 2000. In December 2002 the New York Times published a rather positive article on the guru without mentioning the allegations at all. [28] There have also been numerous positive articles about Sai Baba as well as articles he has written in Indian papers.
There was also an extremely critical TV documentary "Seduced By Sai Baba", produced by Denmark's national television and radio broadcaster Danish radio aired in Denmark, Australia and Norway. The Danish jounalist Ojvind Kyro who was involved in the production of the documentary asserts, as published in Robert Priddy's book "The End of the Dream", that he has in his possession ten signed affidavits of young men from around the globe who claim to have been seriously sexually abused by SSB. He writes that these affidavits are open to see for official investigators and accredited journalists but not for the public.
The Indian President Abdul Kalam and the former Indian Prime Minister Atal Behari Vajpayee visit the ashram and pay respect to the guru. Vajpayee has written a letter which is published on the internet, also signed by two former Supreme Court Justices, expressing that Sathya Sai Baba is innocent of sexual molestations and that the accusations are concocted and malicious. [32] Sceptics are confused as to whether Vajpayee's signed statement is based on government information not made available to the public. But it was made clear during the recent documentary, "Secret Swami" that the Indian government has taken the position that the allegations against Sai Baba are false.
The European parliament accepted a motion to have no cooperation with any of the Sathya Sai Baba affiliated organizations until the sexual abuse charges had been investigated.
Questions have been asked in the Parliament of the United Kingdom about the suicide of a British young man who a friend claims told him he was sexually abused by the guru. The young man had HIV, and overdosed on the painkiller commonly known as Tylenol. Since the alleged victim is deceased the accusation is hearsay and cannot be taken as evidence in a court of law. One Member of Parliament has expressed concern about the alleged indoctrination of children by devotees who volunteer at public schools and propagate the Educare/Education in Human Values teachings.
The United States Department of State has issued a travel warning about a "prominent local religious leader" under the section Andhra Pradesh without mentioning Sathya Sai Baba explicitly. Since about June 2004 embassy or consulate staff in India confirm that they referred to Sathya Sai Baba in the travel warning. The warning was placed as a result of the notarized petitions by several alleged victims even though they have never filed formal charges in India.
The BBC TWO documentary Secret Swami showed two American men under their real names who testified about Sathya Sai Baba's sexual abuse when they were still young and his manipulation of them. The former secretary of the Home minister of Andhra Pradesh, V.P.B. Nair who came from of a police background expressed his firm belief that the four assailants in 1993 had unnecessarily and illegally been shot by the police. Both Premanand and Nair wanted the case to be re-opened and believed that it had been silenced to prevent revelations about illegal practices by Sathya Sai Baba and his organizations. In the documentary, Premanand showed that he could perform, seemingly the same acts, or at least some of them, as Sathya Sai Baba that the latter claims to be miracles.
Dr. Michael Goldstein, International Chairman of the Sri Sathya Sai Organisations, stated in the documentary that it was against his "heart and conscience" to initiate or approve of a proper legal process to investigate the allegations against Sathya Sai Baba. Isaac Tigrett, a prominent follower and co-founder of the Hard Rock CafÃ, states clearly that his admiration for the guru will not change even if the charges of paedophilia and murder were proved beyond all doubt.Â
Â
________________________________
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk>
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 17 January, 2009 3:31:07 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
Dear friends and Cass
My views are:
Cass wrote:
"we shall know them by their fruits is a biblical quote. "
My answer:
This biblical quote is esoteric teaching for those who knows about its meaning.
Blavatsky refers to it in her book The Key to Theosophy.
Cass wrote:
"I didn't suggest that Krishnamurti outshone Sai Baba - I said that Krishnamurti helped me whereas Sai Baba offers me nothing. His teaching is not even close to Advaita. "
My answer:
You are dead wrong. And your answer tells me that you have only superfiscial knowledge about Sathya Sai Baba's teachings.
Sathya Sai Baba's teachings are much more close to the true methaphysical teachings on Adwaita Vednata and in accordance with H. P. Blavatsky's and her Masters views. - Whereas J. Krishnamurti is not allowing any Guru's and Chela-realtions to exists. Only his on books - whereby he have created a sect of seperatism, opposing the Wisdom teachings of ages past. - H. P. Blavatsky, Ammonius Saccas and Sathya Sai Baba sought and are seeking to unite the wisdom teaching from all religions. J. Krishnamurti' s teaching taken as an overall teaching is an obstacle to this teaching.
Cass wrote:
"Krishnamurti was a boy playing on a beach when he was spotted by Leadbeater. I think he was 8 years old, so Leadbeater got a hold of him before his brain was fully developed. "
My answer:
How can a World Teacher of the Age allow himself to be discovered by the Phaedofile Magician of the Age?
There is clearly something wrong here.
Cass wrote:
"I think he was 8 years old, so Leadbeater got a hold of him before his brain was fully developed. Apparently he was a vacant kind of kid. From K's point of view, Leadbeater was offering a life less poverty stricken and no doubt K's father thought this option would benefit his son. "
My answer:
So he was "vacant". I bet CWL liked that. And Krishnamurti' s father agreed without any protests?
How can a vacant child write a book named "At the Feet of the Master", and publish it a year later in 1910 ? - Was he suddenly transformed in the magic hands of CWL?
Try to read the content of this link:
1.
And that was why J. Krishnamurti' s Father went to court so to avoid the adoption???
http://www.questia. com/PM.qst? a=o&d=55090725
2.
Evolution of Mrs. Besant. Being the life and public activities of Mrs. Annie Besant, secularist, socialist, theosophist and politician. With sidelights on the inner workings of the Theosophical Society and the methods by which Mr. Leadbeater arrived at the threshold of divinity by The Editor of Justice, Madras, 1918.
"From Mr. Leadbeater to Mrs. Besant, September 11th., 1906:
You know I never for a moment suggested that the Masters dictated or approved such teaching. I should myself simply infer that They left me to make my own discoveries, and presumably therefore did not consider that this one thing out-weighs everything else, as you apparently do now, though you as certainly did not think so when we were together at Benares. Both matrimony and prostitution must obviously be worse, because in each case they involve action upon radically wrong, is it not more probable that in spite of that defect, they were willing to use what was good in me, than that both of us and several other people have been consistently and successfully deluded for many years, especially when you consider how much good came out of the delusion. If we are to suppose the whole transaction carried out by Dark Powers at the cost of infinite trouble, you do not see that the balance of result of that transaction is enormously against them? I suppose it is
useless to write, because you have felt a certain line to be your duty and you naturally therefore see everything from that point of view; but at least do not let yourself be persuaded to think that I am still carrying on that line of teaching in spite of you; I yielded my opinion to yours at once, but it does not seem to have made any difference. All through the affair, I have guided my self as far as possible by what I thought you would wish. (Italics ours)
(Exhibit Narayaniah Case)"
www.phx-ult- lodge.org/ manifesto. htm
http://blavatskyarc hives.com/ besantleadbeater lettersfull17. pdf
3.
"In the Court of the District Judge OF CH1NGLEPUT, 0. S. No. 47 of 1912, Q. NARAYANIAHâPlaintiff
Versus ANNIE BESANTâDefendant"
http://74.125. 77.132/search? q=cache:NrrF7riM QYcJ:krotonaarch ives.com/ Annie_Besant_ Cases_files/ 12.11.06. OS47.Besant_ Statement_ only.Vasanta_ Press.pdf+ Besant+court+ 1912+judge+ Krishnamurti+ filetype: pdf&hl=da& ct=clnk&cd= 3&gl=dk
- - -
About Sathya Sai Baba, I questions all and everything.
What I am referring to is that his teachings have a lot in common with Ammonious Saccas teachings, where he is seeking to promote a synthesis of the wisdom teachings within all the major religions on the Planet. B. P. Blavatsky dis the same. A synthesis of the kernal of the major religions wisdom teahings is important so to end (or at least keep down) the strife and battles on this planet among ignorant and non-compassionate fanatics and bigots. - J. Krishnamurti only created a secterian teachings - without anyone to guide you on how to use cliarvoyance and other powers. No Gurus are allowed. These are important differences
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Cass Silva
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:10 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
Morten
we shall know them by their fruits is a biblical quote. I didn't suggest that Krishnamurti outshone Sai Baba - I said that Krishnamurti helped me whereas Sai Baba offers me nothing. His teaching is not even close to Advaita. But that is only my opinion - Krishnamurti was a boy playing on a beach when he was spotted by Leadbeater. I think he was 8 years old, so Leadbeater got a hold of him before his brain was fully developed. Apparently he was a vacant kind of kid. From K's point of view, Leadbeater was offering a life less poverty stricken and no doubt K's father thought this option would benefit his son. To lay the blame at K's feet is harsh of you - as soon as he was mature he saw the folly and abandoned it for his own path - and who can blame him for that as it is exactly what HPB said - each man's path is different.
Sathya Sai Baba, I believe, states that he is the reincarnation of the original Sai Baba with a 10 year gap between the death of Sai Baba and the birth of Sathya Sai Baba. Didn't you question this?
Cass
____________ _________ _________ __
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Friday, 16 January, 2009 4:05:02 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
Dear friends and Cass
My views are:
I have a more relaxed attitude. I follow the theosophical view: We shall know them on their fruits and their teachings. (I.e. Not on romours and the like.) The court in India have, when asked, rejected to do anything, because of the lack of evidence.
Yet, I entirely agree on being careful about accepting him as an Avatar.
So why should we find J. Krishnamurti better than Sathya Sai Baba in promoting the Wisdom Teachings of All Ages Past?
Remember, that J. Krishnamurti allowed himself to be singlehandedly discovered by a Phaedofile or similar named C. W. Leadbeater.
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Cass Silva
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 2:08 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
No he is not for me Morten - too much controversy around him - claims of sexual abuse too!
Cass
Sathya Sai Baba on November 23, 1926[1][2] â or later than 1927[3] â with the family name of "Ratnakaram" ,[4] and is a controversial[ 5] South Indian guru controversially described by his followers as a Godman[1][6] and a miracle worker.[7][8] Several controversies including of homosexual abuse [5], deciet[5] and economic offences[5] surround Sathyanarayana Raju. A BBC Documentary notes that such controversies have persisted for at least 30 years [5]. The website of the American Embassy in Delhi, referring to Sai Baba[5], warns Americans visiting Andhra Pradesh of a "noted godman" who reportedly engages in "inappropriate sexual behaviour" with young male devotees.[5]
According to the Sathya Sai Organization there are an estimated 1,200 Sathya Sai Baba Centers in 114 countries world-wide.[ 9] The number of Sathya Sai Baba adherents is estimated sometimes as around 6 million, and followers cite "50 to 100 million."[10] He is considered by his followers to be an avatar and the reincarnation of the saint Sai Baba of Shirdi, however this has been strongly disputed
____________ _________ _________ __
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Thursday, 15 January, 2009 3:58:59 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
Dear friends and Cass
My views are:
Have you read Sathya Sai Baba's books with the SAME emphasis and compared them with J. Krishnamurti' s?
Commercials are not always objective. I think we know that.
Try this easy one: GUIDE TO INDIAN CULTURE AND SPIRITUALITY (Q & A's between Sai Baba and a Seeker).
http://sss.vn. ua/guide_ in.htm
Here are writings given by Sathya Sai Baba - taken down by a near follow named N. Kasturi.
http://www.sssbpt. info
A book about the Avatar and the allegations etc etc.
"SATHYA SAI BABA AS AVATAR" by Michael James Spurr, 2007, 450 pages
http://ir.canterbur y.ac.nz/bitstrea m/10092/1025/ 1/thesis_ fulltext. pdf
Sathya Sai Baba's teachings are called Purusothama Yoga (Something like - Karma, Bakhti, Jnana blended all one in one. Or something like the heart path of Adwaita Vedanta.)
- - -
Those interested will find a disagreement in dead letters between Sai Baba and H. P. Blavatsky on when the Kali Yuga began.
One will also find that Sathya Sai Baba's teaching are very synthetic in nature, similar to H. P. Blavatsky's. Whereas J. Krishnamurti' s was only a pseudo-Adwaita teaching where he almost always referred to himself and never to the sages and Avatars of the ancient times. And almost never comparing his words with others. No chela teachings like HPB and Sathya Sai Baba are in agreement about.
And when you read H. P. Blavatsky's book a Key to Theosophy you will understand the IMPORTANCE of seeking to promote, the mutual essence of the wisdom teachings from a religions of ancient past and present - so to seek to END all the strifes. And NOT to do like J. Krishnamurti - merely creating his own doctrine and sect, without really relating it to anything else but almost only his own thoughts.
But these are my views, and are written so that some of you might catch a glimpse of the true light and not a fanatical one no matter who is right or wrong.
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Cass Silva
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 2:26 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
I can only speak for myself - I gained considerable knowledge from Krishnamurti concerning the ego and how it operates.
>From Sai Baba all I learnt was the materialism of trinkets
Cass
____________ _________ _________ __
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009 3:58:27 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
Dear friends and Cass
My views are:
You wrote:
"I believe Krishnamurti fulfilled Blavatsky prediction that a Teacher would come"
H. P. Blavatsky wrote the following in her famous book The Secret Doctrine (Volume I + II):
"The same may be said of the whole Esoteric system. One turn of the key, and no more, was given in "ISIS." Much more is explained in these volumes. In those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya; and that, like the once-mysterious sources of the Nile, the source of all religions and philosophies now known to the world has been for many ages forgotten and lost to men, but is at last found."
(H. P. Blavatsky "The Secret Doctrine", vol. 1., ULT-edition, Facsimile of the original edition from 1888 ).
- - -
Now if J. Krishnamurti fulfilled H. P. Blavatsky's prediction he must have been giving - as Blavatsky said in the above - "final and irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya; and that, like the once-mysterious sources of the Nile, the source of all religions and philosophies now known to the world has been for many ages forgotten and lost to men, but is at last found."
Where were and are those - quoted - "irrefutable proofs" given by J. Krishnamurti?
And if Dalai Lama is the hot shot, where were or are his - quoted - "irrefutable proofs"?
And C. W. Leadbeater, who only were a clairvoyant for about 16 years before he singlehandedly discovered, lo, the Teacher of the AGE - and not the teacher of the decade, - where was his - quoted - "irrefutable proofs" on Gupta Vidya?
I conclude there were and are none yet.
Whereas - if anyone since 1925 until 2009 - should we said to have given such a proof, it aught to be Sathya Sai Baba despite the many bad romours about him.
Is there anyone who disagree with me on this?
Although, I am not the one saying that Sathya Sai Baba is the Avatar of the Age, despite he him self are saying that.
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Cass Silva
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 3:57 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
How would I know?
Cass
Mr. J.M. Prentice followed, and Dawn is able to reproduce his eloquent address in full. He said: -
"In view of the importance of this occasion, in view of the importance of the work we are starting tonight, I want - by way of introduction - to refer to something which I have never hitherto referred to in public: I want to tell you the circumstances in which H.P.B. died. I wish you to go back with me some thirty-two years and picture a room - half bedroom, half study, and see there an old woman, worn out in the work of Humanity, diseased and ill, gasping out her last few life-breaths. And I want you to note that as she dies a wave of despair well-nigh engulfs her, despair not for herself, but for the movement to which she has devoted her life. See her seated in a great arm-chair, and hear the last words which she whispers ere she dies: "Tell Annie to keep the link unbroken." That was the link with the Great Powers which were behind the Society and the White Lodge which was responsible for bringing it into
existence. I want to tell you something of the happenings in the years that have followed since then, and how Annie, who is, of course, Mrs. Besant, has acted in regard to keeping the link unbroken. It is a sad story. It is the story of one who failed to reach the level of greatness indicated for her, who failed so utterly as to make H.P.B.'s despair understandable now.
"Within two years of Blavatsky's death the lust for power that has been such a feature of Mrs. Besant's career manifested itself, and that dominant pride of personality that H.P.B. had so severely rebuked, had shown itself. In 1892 (3-4), there was - what shall I call it? - a conflict between two of the personalities that were left in charge of the movement, and the result of the clash was the ruinous experience known as the Judge secession in 1895. There is little profit in reviewing all the details, but I want to say this: it was largely the result of Annie Besant's work, of her failure to understand the principles of universal brotherhood, that the movement was well-nigh wrecked then. That section of the movement which followed Mr. Judge in 1895 passed, after his death in 1896, into the hands of Mrs. Katherine Tingley, who is still the leader of a comparatively small section of the Theosophical Society, and who is doing good work.
She has devoted herself to the cause of Universal Brotherhood and world peace, and we recognize the value of the work she has done in America, Holland, and the Scandinavian countries; but she again, because of this terrific lust for power, was not able to control even that portion of the movement which came under her control, so there was a further split, and that movement, that second secession, is now known as The United Lodge of Theosophists, which in turn is doing a splendid work, more especially in republishing Blavatsky's books exactly as she wrote them, and not as they have been re-edited since.
"The years that followed the Judge secession were marked by the introduction of Neo-Theosophy. Slowly there emerges the sinister figure of an old friend - C.W. Leadbeater. He
represents all that is worst in the whole movement. In 1906, and right on until 1908, there were launched round him a series of scandals that are so unsavory that I am not going to inflict any of them on you. He resigned in 1906, and, as Mr. Gillespie has told you, he went out originally with the unsparing condemnation of Mrs. Besant. However, she very soon brought him back, because she found him necessary in supplying her with all the psychic stuff requisite to the career on which she found herself embarked. She was not able to get all the choice bits of psychic information required to feed the flock of devotees with which she had surrounded herself, so, as our sinister friend had already succeeded in cultivating a world-wide impression that he was the greatest clairvoyant in existence, he was recalled to assist her. Moreover, in connection with the appearance of some questionable spooks that were construed in the Persons of the Masters at the death-bed
of the President-Founder, Colonel Olcott, Leadbeater had performed a signal service to Mrs. Besant by declaring, from the kindly shelter of a Sicilian villa to which he had retired in the hour of his downfall, that they were genuine. True, he was not there, and knew nothing of what had actually happened; but so cleverly had he worked himself in a position of being the mouthpiece of the Masters, that his testimony was sufficient to swing over many of the doubters, and so, by his help, Mrs. Besant had been elected President.
"In 1908 he triumphantly returned to the movement, and very shortly we see the first evidences of a plan which had been slowly maturing in his mind - the first direct evidence of absolute departure from Universal Brotherhood, and the neutrality that goes with it is in the beginnings of the "Order of the Star in the East." I know that we were told, until we were sick of listening to it, that the O.S.E. had no direct or official connection with the Theosophical Society; but it was one of the first fruits of Neo-Theosophy, it fastened itself on to the movement, and the parasitic growth has drawn its very life therefrom ever since.
"In 1911-12 there was another split. If there is anything in the world that Mrs. Besant will not tolerate, it is the possibility of a rival. She saw one in the person of Dr. Rudolph Steiner. It did not take long for Mrs. Besant to inaugurate a plan of campaign. She saw fit to expel the whole of the German Section of 2,500 members. And why? What do you think was her excuse for literally kicking out all these members? Because, she said, Dr. Steiner was giving a presentation of Theosophy which was Christian in its nature, that it would probably be offensive to non-Christian members in other parts of the world. And yet she now does everything she possibly can to foster and enliven the Liberal Catholic Church, another parasitic growth that has caused endless trouble in regard to the free-running life of the Society. The Liberal Catholic Church is much more likely to offend non-Christian Theosophists than ever was Dr. Steiner's presentation
of Theosophy. Indeed, it has offended many of us who were nominally Christian Theosophists - Christian by accident of birth, but Theosophists by conviction and long study. This is just a little example of the inconstancy that goes with Neo-Theosophy. And there are dozens of others. The chain that H.P.B. forged by her selfless service to Humanity has been broken, not once, but dozens of times, the chain that linked the world of today with all the splendid workers of the past, and which should have gone on into the future in unbroken splendor, has been broken into fragments because "Annie" was unfaithful to the charge given to her by the dying Blavatsky, and had failed to keep the particular link delivered into her hands unbroken.
____________ _________ _________ __
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009 4:54:46 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
And which of them gace "irrefutable proof of Gupta-Vidya" ?
Dalai Lama, J. Krushnamurti, or C. W. Leadbeater?
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: nhcareyta
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 2:02 AM
Subject: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
Dear Cass
If I may add to your discussion, your point concerning
a teacher rather than Messiah is, from my perspective,
well made and significant.
Moreover, Madame Blavatsky's words "...numerous and
united body of people..." and "..an organisation awaiting
his arrival..." are also significant.
As I have mentioned previously, in 1973 the Dalai Lama
first visited the West in Europe.
He found "...numerous and united body of people..."
and an organisational structure ready for his teachings.
Many of these teachings are theosophical and from Madame
Blavatsky's masters' tradition.
She was entrusted to bring some of these same teachings to
the West a century earlier.
The Dalai Lama has certainly been a torchbearer for the light
of compassion and non-violence in the world.
And contrary to most religions, he also teaches we have to
discover the nature of our self, by ourselves, through
studying our mind and not through blindly following dogma,
despite his tradition's many dogmas.
Kind regards
Nigel
--- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@ ...> wrote:
>
> No I haven't - Blavatsky stated "the next impulse will find a
numerous and united body
> of people ready to welcome the new torch-bearer of Truth. He will
find the minds of men prepared for his message, a language ready for
him in which to clothe the new truths he brings, an organization
awaiting his arrival . . . ." The Key to Theosophy, pp. 306-7.
Italics added.
>
> She stated a "new torch-bearer of Truth" which isn't the same thing
as a 'new messiah' - I see no problem in translating torch bearer
into teacher?
>
> Cass
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ ...>
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Sunday, 11 January, 2009 8:41:05 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
>
>
> No.
> You wrote:
> "I believe Krishnamurti fulfilled Blavatsky prediction that a
Teacher would come"
>
> I take it that you have changed your mind or wanted to tell me
something else.
>
> - - -
>
> And you did not answer my questions.
> And I ask myself why.
>
> M. Sufilight
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Cass Silva
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 3:29 AM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
>
> As I have said he was a lesser teacher - as we have mini cycles we
also have mini teachers - if you get my point
> Cass
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Saturday, 10 January, 2009 8:55:54 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
>
> Dear friends and Cass
>
> My views are:
>
> Cass wrote:
> "I believe Krishnamurti fulfilled Blavatsky prediction that a
Teacher would come"
>
> My answer:
> I see no reason to believe this. A Trre is known on its fruits.
>
> ". . .during the last quarter of every hundred years an attempt is
made by those 'Masters' . . . to help on the spiritual progress of
Humanity in a marked and definite way. Towards the close of each
century you will invariably find that an outpouring or upheaval of
spirituality - or call it mysticism if you prefer - has taken place.
Some one or more persons have appeared in the world as their agents,
and a greater or less amount of occult knowledge and teaching has
been given out . . . . .If the present attempt, in the form of our
Society, succeeds better than its predecessors have done, then it
will be in existence as an organized, living and healthy body when
the time comes for the effort of the XXth century. The general
condition of men's minds and hearts will have been improved and
purified by the spread of its teachings . . . . but besides a large
and accessible literature ready to men's hands, the next impulse will
find a numerous and united body
> of people ready to welcome the new torch-bearer of Truth. He will
find the minds of men prepared for his message, a language ready for
him in which to clothe the new truths he brings, an organization
awaiting his arrival . . . ." The Key to Theosophy, pp. 306-7.
Italics added.
>
> My answer:
>
> 1.
> I did not see an Organisation awaiting his (J. Krishnamurti' s)
arrival. He was made a Messiah by the mis-conduct C. W. Leadbeater to
promote his and Annie Besants fantasies about a Messiah in the flesh
as something theosophical.
>
> 2.
> He (J. Krishnamurti' s) if true, came 50 years earlier than
predicted by H. P. Blavatsky. Do any of youreally HONESTLY within
your minds find it to be possible that H. P. Blavatsky and her
Masters was so bad in calculating when a new out-pouring would come?
>
> If you compare J. Krishnamurti with other contemporary spiritual
teacher and later teacher I find him to be a gnat in front of an
elephant when compared with for instance persons like Idries Shah's
teachings, Sathya Sai Baba's teachings, and even the persons behind
the Disclosure Project on Ufology.
>
> 3.
> Do you honstely find his (J. Krishnamurti' s) messages to be NEW?
>
> 4.
> The body was not "united". It exploded thanks to C. W. Leadbeater
and Annie Bests misconducts. How on earth can people find themselves
believing, that the World Teacher of the Age was discovered
SINGLEHANDEDLY by a man who just 3 years earlier was thrown out of
the TS because of Sexual misconduct, something even admitted by
himself? And a "body" which litterally en C. W. Leadbeater was
admitted entrance to the Society again, forcing a great number of
honest theosophists to resign?
> Why should such an activity be the hallmark of theosophical TRUTH
and COMPASSION?
> I call it a disgrace!
>
> 5.
> Why do you not find H. P. Blavatsky's masters being more able to
predict the future than Annie Besant's ?
>
> M. Sufilight
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Cass Silva
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:48 AM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
>
> It was Leadbeater who pronounced Krishnamurti as being the new
World Teacher - Besant went along with it even though she should have
known better - Messiah's are not found on beaches - I believe
Krishnamurti fulfilled Blavatsky prediction that a Teacher would
come - Leadbeater and Besant presumed the teacher would be a World
Teacher - a christ acting through maitreya - the whole episode
confounds me as Besant and Leadbeater must have been aware that such
a World Teacher would not have required any education from those
lesser evolved.
> I believe Krishnamurti when he reached adulthood recognised the
bullshit - that he was not the second christ but could offer the
world a new teaching on the self, hence his reasoning to abandon
everything that supported the second christ claim.
>
> Cass
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Saturday, 10 January, 2009 3:13:49 AM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
>
> Yes. - Let me rephrase it:
> And her activities when talking about J. Krishnamurti?
>
> M. Sufilight
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Cass Silva
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 11:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
>
> Morten - you are wrong Besant did not carnalize Jesus
> Cass
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Friday, 9 January, 2009 3:58:08 AM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
>
> Dear Pedro and friends
>
> My views are:
>
> Pedro asked:
> "Why not burn them in public places, with sufficient notice given
to
> those interested to attend?"
>
> My answer and questions:
>
> Why especially seek to burn them all like revolutionaries? Why not
just simply avoid selling them?
> Let each person have their free choice in accordance with the Law
of Karma. And let us tell people that we do NOT promote and sell
these books, and that we have our reasons for not doing so. They are -
perhaps and only perhaps - available at our libraries alongside the
books by the Spiritists, the Christian dogmatics and other misleading
teachings.
>
> Can you with your compassionate heart and conscience say to any
beginner seeker who visits a TS Bookshop say:
> "Try this book. It is very good. It was written by one of the best
theosophical authors of the past 150 years, and he was indeed a good
and wise man? Honestly Pedro, if you agree to this I will have to ask
you: What planet do you come from?
>
> Pedro asked:
> "As a matter of fact, why stop at
> Leadbeater's books? Why not include Besant's, Arundale's,
> Jinarajadasa' s, Sri Ram's, Taimni's and perhaps many others?"
>
> My answer and question:
> Each authors books and literary output have to valued in the face
of their contents and whether the individual author stands as a
disgrace to the theosophical teachings. H. P. Blavatsky clearly spake
out against selling all kind of books. And TS Adyar are not selling
all kind of books.
>
> Today we theosophists are faced with numerous websites bashing the
theosophical teachings because of C. W. Leadbeaters misconduct and
the promotion of a Messiah only 3 years after he were thrown out of
the Society.
> You tell them all and tell us, that we and they ALL are wrong in
their and our views on C. W. Leadbeater dammaging behaviour to the TS
teachings as they were given by H. P. Blavatsky and Master.
>
> I had to start at one place, and choose CWL. And yes, maybe other
authors books aught to be prevented from being sold so not to damage
the WISDOM TEACHINGS of ALL AGES PAST. What do each of you think the
Master would say if you just would go on and sell all and everything.
>
> Remember H. P. Blavatsky for instance recommended reading Hargrave
Jennings book about The Rosicrucians: Their Rites and Mysteries
(1870). And she did well doing it. Can we say the same about C. W.
Leadbeaters books? No certainly not!
>
> These are some the differences in view Pedro.
> I will avoid to promote something that damages the WISDOM TEACHINGS
of ALL AGES PAST.
> Whereas I find that you appearntly would allow this damage to take
full effect in a Christian Church or something almost similar to it?
>
> - - -
> Now, Annie Besant, C. W. Leadbeater and Alice A. Bailey promotes
the idea of a carnalized saviour in the flesh. They do it by the use
of pseudo-Christian vocabulary, I will admit that. But they DO it.
>
> H. P. Blavatsky spoke about against this idea of emotionalism.
> And when people will teach theosophy they aught to consider the
following views by H. P. Blavatsky.
>
> H.P. Blavatsky wrote in December 1887:
>
> In CARNALIZING the central figure of the New Testament, in imposing
> the dogma of the Word MADE FLESH, the Latin Church sets up a
doctrine
> diametrically opposed to the tenets of Buddhist and Hindu
Esotericism
> and the Greek Gnosis. Therefore, there will always be an abyss
> between the East and the West, as long as neither of these dogmas
> yields. Almost 2,000 years of bloody persecution against HERETICS
> and INFIDELS by the Church looms before the Oriental nations to
> prevent them from renouncing their philosophic doctrines in favor of
> that which degrades the CHRISTOS principle. [372-373]
>
> ...the Christians, by localizing and isolating this great Principle,
> and denying it to any other man except Jesus of Nazareth (or the
> Nazar), CARNALIZE the Christos of the Gnostics; that alone prevents
> them having any point in common with the disciples of the Archaic
> Wisdom. . . . [374]
>
> . . . true Theosophists will never accept ...a Christ made
> Flesh. . . .[390]
>
> - - -
>
> C.W. XII, p. 501-
>
> (From the "Book of Discipline" in the schools of "Dzyan.")
>
> "1. To the earnest Disciple his Teacher takes the place of Father
and Mother. For, whereas they gave him his body and its faculties,
its life and casual form, the Teacher shows him how to develop the
inner faculties for the acquisition of the Eternal Wisdom.
>
> "2. To the Disciple each Fellow-Disciple becomes a Brother and
Sister, a portion of himself, for his interests and aspirations are
theirs, his welfare interwoven with theirs, his progress helped or
hindered by their intelligence, morality, and behavior through the
intimacy brought about by their co-discipleship.
>
> "3. A co-disciple or associate cannot backslide or fall out of the
line without affecting those who stand firm through the sympathetic
tie between themselves and the psychical currents between them and
their Teacher.
>
> "4. Woe to the deserter, woe also to all who help to bring his soul
to the point where desertion first presents itself before his mind's
eye, as the lesser of two evils. Gold in the crucible is he who
stands the melting heat of trial, and lets only the dross be burnt
out of his heart; accursed by Karmic action will find himself he who
throws dross into the melting-pot of discipleship for the debasement
of his fellow-pupil. As the members to the body, so are the disciples
to each other, and to the Head and Heart which teach and nourish them
with the life-stream of Truth.
>
> "5. As the limbs defend the head and heart of the body they belong
to, so have the disciples to defend the head and the heart of the
body they belong to (in this case Theosophy) from injury."
>
> (From the Letter of a Master.)
>
> " ... and if the limbs have to defend the head and heart of their
body, then why not so, also, the Disciples their Teachers as
representing the SCIENCE of Theosophy which contains and
>
> ----------
> * "So shalt thou be in full accord with all that lives; bear love
to men as though they were thy brother-pupils, disciples of one
Teacher, the sons of one sweet mother." (Vide Fragment III, in Voice
of the Silence, p. 49.)
> ----------
>
> Page 503
>
> includes the 'head' of their privilege, the 'heart' of their
spiritual growth? Saith the Scripture: -
>
> "He who wipeth not away the filth with which the parent's body may
have been defiled by an enemy, neither loves the parent nor honours
himself. He who defendeth not the persecuted and the helpless, who
giveth not of his food to the starving nor draweth water from his
well for the thirsty, hath been born too soon in human shape. "
>
> http://www.katinkah esselink. net/blavatsky/ articles/ v12/y1890_
052.htm
>
> M. Sufilight
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Pedro Oliveira
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 8:01 AM
> Subject: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
>
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-
> theosophy@ .> wrote:
>
> > So therefore I would keep recommending: Stop selling books by C.
> W. Leadbeater and his LLC Church.
>
> Why not burn them in public places, with sufficient notice given to
> those interested to attend? As a matter of fact, why stop at
> Leadbeater's books? Why not include Besant's, Arundale's,
> Jinarajadasa' s, Sri Ram's, Taimni's and perhaps many others?
>
> In view of the statemts included in it, such as the ones below,
> should not "The Secret Doctrine" be also considered as a book whose
> sale may not be allowed to go on?
>
> "The Aryan views of the symbolism were those of the whole Pagan
> world; the Semite interpretations emanated from, and were pre-
> eminently those of a small tribe, thus marking its national
features
> and the idiosyncratic defects that characterize many of the Jews to
> this day - gross realism, selfishness, and sensuality. They had
made
> a bargain, through their father Jacob, with their tribal deity,
self-
> exalted above all others, and a covenant that his "seed shall be as
> the dust of the earth"; and that deity could have no better image
> henceforth than that of the symbol of generation, and, as
> representation, a number and numbers." (SD, vol. II, p. 470)
>
> "But Phallic worship has developed only with the gradual loss of
the
> keys to the inner meaning of religious symbols; and there was a day
> when the Israelites had beliefs as pure as the Aryans have. But now
> Judaism, built solely on Phallic worship, has become one of the
> latest creeds in Asia, and theologically a religion of hate and
> malice toward everyone and everything outside themselves. Philo
> JudÃÂus shows what was the genuine Hebrew faith. The sacred
Writings,
> he says, prescribe what we ought to do . . . commanding us to hate
> the heathen and their laws and institutions. They did hate Baal or
> Bacchus worship publicly, but left its worst features to be
followed
> secretly; and it is with the Talmudic Jews that the grand symbols
of
> nature were the most profaned. With them, as now shown by the
> discovery of the key to the correct Bible reading - Geometry, the
> fifth divine Science ("fifth" - because it is the fifth key in the
> series of the Seven Keys to the Universal esoteric language and
> symbology) was desecrated, and by them applied to conceal the most
> terrestrial and grossly sexual mysteries, wherein both Deity and
> religion were degraded." (SD, vol. II, p. 471)
>
> On the other hand, an easier solution would be to allow people the
> freedom to choose what they want to read and study. Alas, this has
> always been the most difficult path to follow, particularly for
those
> bred and born with the nourishment of the received truth.
>
> Pedro
>
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