Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
Jan 16, 2009 12:15 PM
by Morten Nymann Olesen
Dear friends and Martin
My views are:
Martin wrote:
"However when we claim ourselves out in the open being an avatar and proof otherwise, it is a lot harder to get back on track. "
Agreed.
Martin wrote:
"And of course there are avatars and Avatars...Avatars of Light and of Darkness even...the most difficult to find are those disguised as dugpa's, the easiest who are disguised as 'avatars'"
Agreed.
Martin wrote:
"My feeling ( which have never betrayed me )"
That is wrong.
Feeling always betray anyone who is not an Avatar himsefl or herself.
You cannot base your judgement on mere "feeling" and no evidence. That is bad Wisdom teaching.
Can we hear that story about Jesus?
(There are several of them, you know.)
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Martin
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
Hi Morten:
If we consider ourselves to be only temporary human, we could say we are all avatars. As soon as we attach ourselves to being human, we become human...then perfect human..buddha..and again avatar. However when we claim ourselves out in the open being an avatar and proof otherwise, it is a lot harder to get back on track. And of course there are avatars and Avatars...Avatars of Light and of Darkness even...the most difficult to find are those disguised as dugpa's, the easiest who are disguised as 'avatars'...My feeling ( which have never betrayed me ) tells me this Sai Baba is a fake in spite of all his nice words ( copied from books ); read his story on Jesus and you know this guy is completely gone...
--- On Fri, 1/16/09, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk> wrote:
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, January 16, 2009, 8:24 PM
Yes. I am aware of this.
And I do find it strange, that Sathya Sai Baba, who is naming himself an
Avatar of the Age are allowing these accusations to pass, without doing more
about it.
My problem is, that the India Court have reject any atempts of lawsauits
against him so far du to lack of evidence. So as long, as no concrete
evidence can be produced, I can hardley agree with just supporting romours.
The situation was and is quite different when we talk about C. W.
Leadbeater, and TS Adyar is painfully aware of it!
- - -
Remember, that Sathya Sai Baba's views on sexuality have clearly been told
about by himself on several ocassions.
>>> Here are a few words written in the early days <<<
"Do not be contented if you give some food for the worldly hunger of the
senses. Do not lower your ideals for the sake of cheap fame or vulgarise
public taste. Instead of loukika sringaram (worldly enjoyment of sex), give
aloukika Aathmaanandham (Bliss of the Self). Contribute to the expansion of
love, the purification of motives, the enlargement of sympathy, the
tolerance of difference, the respect for individual striving."
(Sathya Sai Speaks, vol. IV, p. 21 - published 1964)
http://www.sathyasa i.org/search/ volume04/ sss04.pdf
"You must be careful about the food you take; for, the jihva (tongue) and
the guhya (organ of generation) are the two great foes of man; the cravings
of hunger and sex drag you into perdition. Desist from catering to the
tongue and its greed; do not be a victim of lust or taste. Have pure food
and eat it in company of the pure. Be moderate in food and keep the senses
strictly under control."
(Sathya Sai Speaks, vol. V, p. 9 - published 1965)
http://www.sathyasa i.org/search/ volume05/ sss05.pdf
"In this world which is impermanent and ever transforming, the Immanent
Power of the Lord is the only permanent and fixed entity. In order to
realise the eternal and the true, one has perforce to attach oneself to that
Source and Sustenance. There is no escape from this path. It is the destiny
of one and all, irrespective of age or scholarship, clime or caste, sex or
status."
(Sathya Sai Speaks, vol. I, p. 22 - published 1956)
http://www.sathyasa i.org/search/ volume01/ sss01.pdf
"The Mahapurushas, the Mahatmas, the Jnanis, the Yogis ... will all be
co-operating in the task of re-establishing righteousness and clearing the
path for the World-attaining Santhi. " (Sathya Sai Speaks, vol. I, p. 29 -
published 1958)
http://www.sathyasa i.org/search/ volume01/ sss01.pdf
"Before marriage, he is half body. Before marriage, she is half body. Lady
is always left side. Right side is gent's. The gent's body is always the
right side of the wife. Now you have only one body. In Indian philosophy or
custom, this is called ardhangi. (Ardha means half.) Wife before marriage is
only ardhangi, half body. Now the left side is joined with the right side
and you are full body."
(Divine Memories of Sathya Sai Baba)
Sai Baba also says:
'The real marriage is with God'; 'First man has 2 legs, he gets marries and
becomes an animal with 4 legs. They get one child, a six-legged scorpion,
then another, an 8-legged cockroach.'
- - -
Sai Baba's Yoga is of 5 parts - Dharma, Jnana, Karma, Bakthi, and Dhyana are
blended into one. Harmoni between head, heart and hands are your duty.
Thoughts should be ciltivated in your spiritual Heart, where they grow up
and out over the head and spreads to the joy and happiness of the whole
world.
Yes. - Sure I am concerned. I am not a Sai devotee, because of the manner
the SathyaSai organisation is being run. Too much (almost blind) bakthi, way
too much to my taste. Yet the most emotional persons among us craves
something like that even when it is not what they spiritually NEED.
And you are saying that none of the romours come from the Jesuits or the
Militant Christians in USA? None at all?
Yet I also remain a critic of Sathya Sai Baba's acitivties regarding his
silences in the years after the romours and accusations. Yet no actual proof
has emerged so far, and that we will have to take into account.
All those who are a treath to secterian beliefs are a treath to the Jesuit
and Dugpa schemes, and they will do all in their power to throw these
treaths to pieces.
- - -
I am just seeking to present a more balanced view upon the issue.
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin" <Mvandertak@yahoo. com>
To: <theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
http://www.rickross .com/reference/ saibaba/saibaba7 .html
--- On Fri, 1/16/09, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
wrote:
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Date: Friday, January 16, 2009, 5:31 PM
Dear friends and Cass
My views are:
Cass wrote:
"we shall know them by their fruits is a biblical quote. "
My answer:
This biblical quote is esoteric teaching for those who knows about its
meaning.
Blavatsky refers to it in her book The Key to Theosophy.
Cass wrote:
"I didn't suggest that Krishnamurti outshone Sai Baba - I said that
Krishnamurti helped me whereas Sai Baba offers me nothing. His teaching is
not even close to Advaita. "
My answer:
You are dead wrong. And your answer tells me that you have only superfiscial
knowledge about Sathya Sai Baba's teachings.
Sathya Sai Baba's teachings are much more close to the true methaphysical
teachings on Adwaita Vednata and in accordance with H. P. Blavatsky's and
her Masters views. - Whereas J. Krishnamurti is not allowing any Guru's and
Chela-realtions to exists. Only his on books - whereby he have created a
sect of seperatism, opposing the Wisdom teachings of ages past. - H. P.
Blavatsky, Ammonius Saccas and Sathya Sai Baba sought and are seeking to
unite the wisdom teaching from all religions. J. Krishnamurti' s teaching
taken as an overall teaching is an obstacle to this teaching.
Cass wrote:
"Krishnamurti was a boy playing on a beach when he was spotted by
Leadbeater. I think he was 8 years old, so Leadbeater got a hold of him
before his brain was fully developed. "
My answer:
How can a World Teacher of the Age allow himself to be discovered by the
Phaedofile Magician of the Age?
There is clearly something wrong here.
Cass wrote:
"I think he was 8 years old, so Leadbeater got a hold of him before his
brain was fully developed. Apparently he was a vacant kind of kid. From K's
point of view, Leadbeater was offering a life less poverty stricken and no
doubt K's father thought this option would benefit his son. "
My answer:
So he was "vacant". I bet CWL liked that. And Krishnamurti' s father agreed
without any protests?
How can a vacant child write a book named "At the Feet of the Master", and
publish it a year later in 1910 ? - Was he suddenly transformed in the magic
hands of CWL?
Try to read the content of this link:
1.
And that was why J. Krishnamurti' s Father went to court so to avoid the
adoption???
http://www.questia. com/PM.qst? a=o&d=55090725
2.
Evolution of Mrs. Besant. Being the life and public activities of Mrs. Annie
Besant, secularist, socialist, theosophist and politician. With sidelights
on the inner workings of the Theosophical Society and the methods by which
Mr. Leadbeater arrived at the threshold of divinity by The Editor of
Justice, Madras, 1918.
"From Mr. Leadbeater to Mrs. Besant, September 11th., 1906:
You know I never for a moment suggested that the Masters dictated or
approved such teaching. I should myself simply infer that They left me to
make my own discoveries, and presumably therefore did not consider that this
one thing out-weighs everything else, as you apparently do now, though you
as certainly did not think so when we were together at Benares. Both
matrimony and prostitution must obviously be worse, because in each case
they involve action upon radically wrong, is it not more probable that in
spite of that defect, they were willing to use what was good in me, than
that both of us and several other people have been consistently and
successfully deluded for many years, especially when you consider how much
good came out of the delusion. If we are to suppose the whole transaction
carried out by Dark Powers at the cost of infinite trouble, you do not see
that the balance of result of that transaction is enormously against them? I
suppose it is
useless to write, because you have felt a certain line to be your duty and
you naturally therefore see everything from that point of view; but at least
do not let yourself be persuaded to think that I am still carrying on that
line of teaching in spite of you; I yielded my opinion to yours at once, but
it does not seem to have made any difference. All through the affair, I have
guided my self as far as possible by what I thought you would wish. (Italics
ours)
(Exhibit Narayaniah Case)"
www.phx-ult- lodge.org/ manifesto. htm
http://blavatskyarc hives.com/ besantleadbeater lettersfull17. pdf
3.
"In the Court of the District Judge OF CH1NGLEPUT, 0. S. No. 47 of 1912, Q.
NARAYANIAH-Plaintif f
Versus ANNIE BESANT-Defendant"
http://74.125. 77.132/search? q=cache:NrrF7riM QYcJ:krotonaarch ives.com/
Annie_Besant_ Cases_files/ 12.11.06. OS47.Besant_ Statement_ only.Vasanta_
Press.pdf+ Besant+court+ 1912+judge+ Krishnamurti+ filetype: pdf&hl=da&
ct=clnk&cd= 3&gl=dk
- - -
About Sathya Sai Baba, I questions all and everything.
What I am referring to is that his teachings have a lot in common with
Ammonious Saccas teachings, where he is seeking to promote a synthesis of
the wisdom teachings within all the major religions on the Planet. B. P.
Blavatsky dis the same. A synthesis of the kernal of the major religions
wisdom teahings is important so to end (or at least keep down) the strife
and battles on this planet among ignorant and non-compassionate fanatics and
bigots. - J. Krishnamurti only created a secterian teachings - without
anyone to guide you on how to use cliarvoyance and other powers. No Gurus
are allowed. These are important differences
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Cass Silva
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:10 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
Morten
we shall know them by their fruits is a biblical quote. I didn't suggest
that Krishnamurti outshone Sai Baba - I said that Krishnamurti helped me
whereas Sai Baba offers me nothing. His teaching is not even close to
Advaita. But that is only my opinion - Krishnamurti was a boy playing on a
beach when he was spotted by Leadbeater. I think he was 8 years old, so
Leadbeater got a hold of him before his brain was fully developed.
Apparently he was a vacant kind of kid. From K's point of view, Leadbeater
was offering a life less poverty stricken and no doubt K's father thought
this option would benefit his son. To lay the blame at K's feet is harsh of
you - as soon as he was mature he saw the folly and abandoned it for his own
path - and who can blame him for that as it is exactly what HPB said - each
man's path is different.
Sathya Sai Baba, I believe, states that he is the reincarnation of the
original Sai Baba with a 10 year gap between the death of Sai Baba and the
birth of Sathya Sai Baba. Didn't you question this?
Cass
____________ _________ _________ __
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Friday, 16 January, 2009 4:05:02 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
Dear friends and Cass
My views are:
I have a more relaxed attitude. I follow the theosophical view: We shall
know them on their fruits and their teachings. (I.e. Not on romours and the
like.) The court in India have, when asked, rejected to do anything, because
of the lack of evidence.
Yet, I entirely agree on being careful about accepting him as an Avatar.
So why should we find J. Krishnamurti better than Sathya Sai Baba in
promoting the Wisdom Teachings of All Ages Past?
Remember, that J. Krishnamurti allowed himself to be singlehandedly
discovered by a Phaedofile or similar named C. W. Leadbeater.
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Cass Silva
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 2:08 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
No he is not for me Morten - too much controversy around him - claims of
sexual abuse too!
Cass
Sathya Sai Baba on November 23, 1926[1][2] - or later than 1927[3] - with
the family name of "Ratnakaram" ,[4] and is a controversial[ 5] South Indian
guru controversially described by his followers as a Godman[1][6] and a
miracle worker.[7][8] Several controversies including of homosexual abuse
[5], deciet[5] and economic offences[5] surround Sathyanarayana Raju. A BBC
Documentary notes that such controversies have persisted for at least 30
years [5]. The website of the American Embassy in Delhi, referring to Sai
Baba[5], warns Americans visiting Andhra Pradesh of a "noted godman" who
reportedly engages in "inappropriate sexual behaviour" with young male
devotees.[5]
According to the Sathya Sai Organization there are an estimated 1,200
Sathya Sai Baba Centers in 114 countries world-wide.[ 9] The number of
Sathya Sai Baba adherents is estimated sometimes as around 6 million, and
followers cite "50 to 100 million."[10] He is considered by his followers to
be an avatar and the reincarnation of the saint Sai Baba of Shirdi, however
this has been strongly disputed
____________ _________ _________ __
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Thursday, 15 January, 2009 3:58:59 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
Dear friends and Cass
My views are:
Have you read Sathya Sai Baba's books with the SAME emphasis and compared
them with J. Krishnamurti' s?
Commercials are not always objective. I think we know that.
Try this easy one: GUIDE TO INDIAN CULTURE AND SPIRITUALITY (Q & A's between
Sai Baba and a Seeker).
http://sss.vn. ua/guide_ in.htm
Here are writings given by Sathya Sai Baba - taken down by a near follow
named N. Kasturi.
http://www.sssbpt. info
A book about the Avatar and the allegations etc etc.
"SATHYA SAI BABA AS AVATAR" by Michael James Spurr, 2007, 450 pages
http://ir.canterbur y.ac.nz/bitstrea m/10092/1025/ 1/thesis_ fulltext. pdf
Sathya Sai Baba's teachings are called Purusothama Yoga (Something like -
Karma, Bakhti, Jnana blended all one in one. Or something like the heart
path of Adwaita Vedanta.)
- - -
Those interested will find a disagreement in dead letters between Sai Baba
and H. P. Blavatsky on when the Kali Yuga began.
One will also find that Sathya Sai Baba's teaching are very synthetic in
nature, similar to H. P. Blavatsky's. Whereas J. Krishnamurti' s was only a
pseudo-Adwaita teaching where he almost always referred to himself and never
to the sages and Avatars of the ancient times. And almost never comparing
his words with others. No chela teachings like HPB and Sathya Sai Baba are
in agreement about.
And when you read H. P. Blavatsky's book a Key to Theosophy you will
understand the IMPORTANCE of seeking to promote, the mutual essence of the
wisdom teachings from a religions of ancient past and present - so to seek
to END all the strifes. And NOT to do like J. Krishnamurti - merely creating
his own doctrine and sect, without really relating it to anything else but
almost only his own thoughts.
But these are my views, and are written so that some of you might catch a
glimpse of the true light and not a fanatical one no matter who is right or
wrong.
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Cass Silva
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 2:26 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
I can only speak for myself - I gained considerable knowledge from
Krishnamurti concerning the ego and how it operates.
From Sai Baba all I learnt was the materialism of trinkets
Cass
____________ _________ _________ __
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 14 January, 2009 3:58:27 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
Dear friends and Cass
My views are:
You wrote:
"I believe Krishnamurti fulfilled Blavatsky prediction that a Teacher
would come"
H. P. Blavatsky wrote the following in her famous book The Secret Doctrine
(Volume I + II):
"The same may be said of the whole Esoteric system. One turn of the key, and
no more, was given in "ISIS." Much more is explained in these volumes. In
those days the writer hardly knew the language in which the work was
written, and the disclosure of many things, freely spoken about now, was
forbidden. In Century the Twentieth some disciple more informed, and far
better fitted, may be sent by the Masters of Wisdom to give final and
irrefutable proofs that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya; and that,
like the once-mysterious sources of the Nile, the source of all religions
and philosophies now known to the world has been for many ages forgotten and
lost to men, but is at last found."
(H. P. Blavatsky "The Secret Doctrine", vol. 1., ULT-edition, Facsimile of
the original edition from 1888 ).
- - -
Now if J. Krishnamurti fulfilled H. P. Blavatsky's prediction he must have
been giving - as Blavatsky said in the above - "final and irrefutable proofs
that there exists a Science called Gupta-Vidya; and that, like the
once-mysterious sources of the Nile, the source of all religions and
philosophies now known to the world has been for many ages forgotten and
lost to men, but is at last found."
Where were and are those - quoted - "irrefutable proofs" given by J.
Krishnamurti?
And if Dalai Lama is the hot shot, where were or are his - quoted -
"irrefutable proofs"?
And C. W. Leadbeater, who only were a clairvoyant for about 16 years
before he singlehandedly discovered, lo, the Teacher of the AGE - and not
the teacher of the decade, - where was his - quoted - "irrefutable proofs"
on Gupta Vidya?
I conclude there were and are none yet.
Whereas - if anyone since 1925 until 2009 - should we said to have given
such a proof, it aught to be Sathya Sai Baba despite the many bad romours
about him.
Is there anyone who disagree with me on this?
Although, I am not the one saying that Sathya Sai Baba is the Avatar of the
Age, despite he him self are saying that.
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: Cass Silva
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 3:57 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
How would I know?
Cass
Mr. J.M. Prentice followed, and Dawn is able to reproduce his eloquent
address in full. He said: -
"In view of the importance of this occasion, in view of the importance of
the work we are starting tonight, I want - by way of introduction - to refer
to something which I have never hitherto referred to in public: I want to
tell you the circumstances in which H.P.B. died. I wish you to go back with
me some thirty-two years and picture a room - half bedroom, half study, and
see there an old woman, worn out in the work of Humanity, diseased and ill,
gasping out her last few life-breaths. And I want you to note that as she
dies a wave of despair well-nigh engulfs her, despair not for herself, but
for the movement to which she has devoted her life. See her seated in a
great arm-chair, and hear the last words which she whispers ere she dies:
"Tell Annie to keep the link unbroken." That was the link with the Great
Powers which were behind the Society and the White Lodge which was
responsible for bringing it into
existence. I want to tell you something of the happenings in the years
that have followed since then, and how Annie, who is, of course, Mrs.
Besant, has acted in regard to keeping the link unbroken. It is a sad story.
It is the story of one who failed to reach the level of greatness indicated
for her, who failed so utterly as to make H.P.B.'s despair understandable
now.
"Within two years of Blavatsky's death the lust for power that has been
such a feature of Mrs. Besant's career manifested itself, and that dominant
pride of personality that H.P.B. had so severely rebuked, had shown itself.
In 1892 (3-4), there was - what shall I call it? - a conflict between two of
the personalities that were left in charge of the movement, and the result
of the clash was the ruinous experience known as the Judge secession in
1895. There is little profit in reviewing all the details, but I want to say
this: it was largely the result of Annie Besant's work, of her failure to
understand the principles of universal brotherhood, that the movement was
well-nigh wrecked then. That section of the movement which followed Mr.
Judge in 1895 passed, after his death in 1896, into the hands of Mrs.
Katherine Tingley, who is still the leader of a comparatively small section
of the Theosophical Society, and who is doing good work.
She has devoted herself to the cause of Universal Brotherhood and world
peace, and we recognize the value of the work she has done in America,
Holland, and the Scandinavian countries; but she again, because of this
terrific lust for power, was not able to control even that portion of the
movement which came under her control, so there was a further split, and
that movement, that second secession, is now known as The United Lodge of
Theosophists, which in turn is doing a splendid work, more especially in
republishing Blavatsky's books exactly as she wrote them, and not as they
have been re-edited since.
"The years that followed the Judge secession were marked by the
introduction of Neo-Theosophy. Slowly there emerges the sinister figure of
an old friend - C.W. Leadbeater. He
represents all that is worst in the whole movement. In 1906, and right on
until 1908, there were launched round him a series of scandals that are so
unsavory that I am not going to inflict any of them on you. He resigned in
1906, and, as Mr. Gillespie has told you, he went out originally with the
unsparing condemnation of Mrs. Besant. However, she very soon brought him
back, because she found him necessary in supplying her with all the psychic
stuff requisite to the career on which she found herself embarked. She was
not able to get all the choice bits of psychic information required to feed
the flock of devotees with which she had surrounded herself, so, as our
sinister friend had already succeeded in cultivating a world-wide impression
that he was the greatest clairvoyant in existence, he was recalled to assist
her. Moreover, in connection with the appearance of some questionable spooks
that were construed in the Persons of the Masters at the
death-bed
of the President-Founder, Colonel Olcott, Leadbeater had performed a
signal service to Mrs. Besant by declaring, from the kindly shelter of a
Sicilian villa to which he had retired in the hour of his downfall, that
they were genuine. True, he was not there, and knew nothing of what had
actually happened; but so cleverly had he worked himself in a position of
being the mouthpiece of the Masters, that his testimony was sufficient to
swing over many of the doubters, and so, by his help, Mrs. Besant had been
elected President.
"In 1908 he triumphantly returned to the movement, and very shortly we see
the first evidences of a plan which had been slowly maturing in his mind -
the first direct evidence of absolute departure from Universal Brotherhood,
and the neutrality that goes with it is in the beginnings of the "Order of
the Star in the East." I know that we were told, until we were sick of
listening to it, that the O.S.E. had no direct or official connection with
the Theosophical Society; but it was one of the first fruits of
Neo-Theosophy, it fastened itself on to the movement, and the parasitic
growth has drawn its very life therefrom ever since.
"In 1911-12 there was another split. If there is anything in the world
that Mrs. Besant will not tolerate, it is the possibility of a rival. She
saw one in the person of Dr. Rudolph Steiner. It did not take long for Mrs.
Besant to inaugurate a plan of campaign. She saw fit to expel the whole of
the German Section of 2,500 members. And why? What do you think was her
excuse for literally kicking out all these members? Because, she said, Dr.
Steiner was giving a presentation of Theosophy which was Christian in its
nature, that it would probably be offensive to non-Christian members in
other parts of the world. And yet she now does everything she possibly can
to foster and enliven the Liberal Catholic Church, another parasitic growth
that has caused endless trouble in regard to the free-running life of the
Society. The Liberal Catholic Church is much more likely to offend
non-Christian Theosophists than ever was Dr. Steiner's presentation
of Theosophy. Indeed, it has offended many of us who were nominally
Christian Theosophists - Christian by accident of birth, but Theosophists by
conviction and long study. This is just a little example of the inconstancy
that goes with Neo-Theosophy. And there are dozens of others. The chain that
H.P.B. forged by her selfless service to Humanity has been broken, not once,
but dozens of times, the chain that linked the world of today with all the
splendid workers of the past, and which should have gone on into the future
in unbroken splendor, has been broken into fragments because "Annie" was
unfaithful to the charge given to her by the dying Blavatsky, and had failed
to keep the particular link delivered into her hands unbroken.
____________ _________ _________ __
From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 13 January, 2009 4:54:46 AM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
And which of them gace "irrefutable proof of Gupta-Vidya" ?
Dalai Lama, J. Krushnamurti, or C. W. Leadbeater?
M. Sufilight
----- Original Message -----
From: nhcareyta
To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 2:02 AM
Subject: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
Dear Cass
If I may add to your discussion, your point concerning
a teacher rather than Messiah is, from my perspective,
well made and significant.
Moreover, Madame Blavatsky's words "...numerous and
united body of people..." and "..an organisation awaiting
his arrival..." are also significant.
As I have mentioned previously, in 1973 the Dalai Lama
first visited the West in Europe.
He found "...numerous and united body of people..."
and an organisational structure ready for his teachings.
Many of these teachings are theosophical and from Madame
Blavatsky's masters' tradition.
She was entrusted to bring some of these same teachings to
the West a century earlier.
The Dalai Lama has certainly been a torchbearer for the light
of compassion and non-violence in the world.
And contrary to most religions, he also teaches we have to
discover the nature of our self, by ourselves, through
studying our mind and not through blindly following dogma,
despite his tradition's many dogmas.
Kind regards
Nigel
--- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@ ...> wrote:
>
> No I haven't - Blavatsky stated "the next impulse will find a
numerous and united body
> of people ready to welcome the new torch-bearer of Truth. He will
find the minds of men prepared for his message, a language ready for
him in which to clothe the new truths he brings, an organization
awaiting his arrival . . . ." The Key to Theosophy, pp. 306-7.
Italics added.
>
> She stated a "new torch-bearer of Truth" which isn't the same thing
as a 'new messiah' - I see no problem in translating torch bearer
into teacher?
>
> Cass
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ ...>
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Sunday, 11 January, 2009 8:41:05 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
>
>
> No.
> You wrote:
> "I believe Krishnamurti fulfilled Blavatsky prediction that a
Teacher would come"
>
> I take it that you have changed your mind or wanted to tell me
something else.
>
> - - -
>
> And you did not answer my questions.
> And I ask myself why.
>
> M. Sufilight
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Cass Silva
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2009 3:29 AM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
>
> As I have said he was a lesser teacher - as we have mini cycles we
also have mini teachers - if you get my point
> Cass
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Saturday, 10 January, 2009 8:55:54 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
>
> Dear friends and Cass
>
> My views are:
>
> Cass wrote:
> "I believe Krishnamurti fulfilled Blavatsky prediction that a
Teacher would come"
>
> My answer:
> I see no reason to believe this. A Trre is known on its fruits.
>
> ". . .during the last quarter of every hundred years an attempt is
made by those 'Masters' . . . to help on the spiritual progress of
Humanity in a marked and definite way. Towards the close of each
century you will invariably find that an outpouring or upheaval of
spirituality - or call it mysticism if you prefer - has taken place.
Some one or more persons have appeared in the world as their agents,
and a greater or less amount of occult knowledge and teaching has
been given out . . . . .If the present attempt, in the form of our
Society, succeeds better than its predecessors have done, then it
will be in existence as an organized, living and healthy body when
the time comes for the effort of the XXth century. The general
condition of men's minds and hearts will have been improved and
purified by the spread of its teachings . . . . but besides a large
and accessible literature ready to men's hands, the next impulse will
find a numerous and united body
> of people ready to welcome the new torch-bearer of Truth. He will
find the minds of men prepared for his message, a language ready for
him in which to clothe the new truths he brings, an organization
awaiting his arrival . . . ." The Key to Theosophy, pp. 306-7.
Italics added.
>
> My answer:
>
> 1.
> I did not see an Organisation awaiting his (J. Krishnamurti' s)
arrival. He was made a Messiah by the mis-conduct C. W. Leadbeater to
promote his and Annie Besants fantasies about a Messiah in the flesh
as something theosophical.
>
> 2.
> He (J. Krishnamurti' s) if true, came 50 years earlier than
predicted by H. P. Blavatsky. Do any of youreally HONESTLY within
your minds find it to be possible that H. P. Blavatsky and her
Masters was so bad in calculating when a new out-pouring would come?
>
> If you compare J. Krishnamurti with other contemporary spiritual
teacher and later teacher I find him to be a gnat in front of an
elephant when compared with for instance persons like Idries Shah's
teachings, Sathya Sai Baba's teachings, and even the persons behind
the Disclosure Project on Ufology.
>
> 3.
> Do you honstely find his (J. Krishnamurti' s) messages to be NEW?
>
> 4.
> The body was not "united". It exploded thanks to C. W. Leadbeater
and Annie Bests misconducts. How on earth can people find themselves
believing, that the World Teacher of the Age was discovered
SINGLEHANDEDLY by a man who just 3 years earlier was thrown out of
the TS because of Sexual misconduct, something even admitted by
himself? And a "body" which litterally en C. W. Leadbeater was
admitted entrance to the Society again, forcing a great number of
honest theosophists to resign?
> Why should such an activity be the hallmark of theosophical TRUTH
and COMPASSION?
> I call it a disgrace!
>
> 5.
> Why do you not find H. P. Blavatsky's masters being more able to
predict the future than Annie Besant's ?
>
> M. Sufilight
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Cass Silva
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 12:48 AM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
>
> It was Leadbeater who pronounced Krishnamurti as being the new
World Teacher - Besant went along with it even though she should have
known better - Messiah's are not found on beaches - I believe
Krishnamurti fulfilled Blavatsky prediction that a Teacher would
come - Leadbeater and Besant presumed the teacher would be a World
Teacher - a christ acting through maitreya - the whole episode
confounds me as Besant and Leadbeater must have been aware that such
a World Teacher would not have required any education from those
lesser evolved.
> I believe Krishnamurti when he reached adulthood recognised the
bullshit - that he was not the second christ but could offer the
world a new teaching on the self, hence his reasoning to abandon
everything that supported the second christ claim.
>
> Cass
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Saturday, 10 January, 2009 3:13:49 AM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
>
> Yes. - Let me rephrase it:
> And her activities when talking about J. Krishnamurti?
>
> M. Sufilight
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Cass Silva
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 11:33 PM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
>
> Morten - you are wrong Besant did not carnalize Jesus
> Cass
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ stofanet. dk>
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Friday, 9 January, 2009 3:58:08 AM
> Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
>
> Dear Pedro and friends
>
> My views are:
>
> Pedro asked:
> "Why not burn them in public places, with sufficient notice given
to
> those interested to attend?"
>
> My answer and questions:
>
> Why especially seek to burn them all like revolutionaries? Why not
just simply avoid selling them?
> Let each person have their free choice in accordance with the Law
of Karma. And let us tell people that we do NOT promote and sell
these books, and that we have our reasons for not doing so. They are -
perhaps and only perhaps - available at our libraries alongside the
books by the Spiritists, the Christian dogmatics and other misleading
teachings.
>
> Can you with your compassionate heart and conscience say to any
beginner seeker who visits a TS Bookshop say:
> "Try this book. It is very good. It was written by one of the best
theosophical authors of the past 150 years, and he was indeed a good
and wise man? Honestly Pedro, if you agree to this I will have to ask
you: What planet do you come from?
>
> Pedro asked:
> "As a matter of fact, why stop at
> Leadbeater's books? Why not include Besant's, Arundale's,
> Jinarajadasa' s, Sri Ram's, Taimni's and perhaps many others?"
>
> My answer and question:
> Each authors books and literary output have to valued in the face
of their contents and whether the individual author stands as a
disgrace to the theosophical teachings. H. P. Blavatsky clearly spake
out against selling all kind of books. And TS Adyar are not selling
all kind of books.
>
> Today we theosophists are faced with numerous websites bashing the
theosophical teachings because of C. W. Leadbeaters misconduct and
the promotion of a Messiah only 3 years after he were thrown out of
the Society.
> You tell them all and tell us, that we and they ALL are wrong in
their and our views on C. W. Leadbeater dammaging behaviour to the TS
teachings as they were given by H. P. Blavatsky and Master.
>
> I had to start at one place, and choose CWL. And yes, maybe other
authors books aught to be prevented from being sold so not to damage
the WISDOM TEACHINGS of ALL AGES PAST. What do each of you think the
Master would say if you just would go on and sell all and everything.
>
> Remember H. P. Blavatsky for instance recommended reading Hargrave
Jennings book about The Rosicrucians: Their Rites and Mysteries
(1870). And she did well doing it. Can we say the same about C. W.
Leadbeaters books? No certainly not!
>
> These are some the differences in view Pedro.
> I will avoid to promote something that damages the WISDOM TEACHINGS
of ALL AGES PAST.
> Whereas I find that you appearntly would allow this damage to take
full effect in a Christian Church or something almost similar to it?
>
> - - -
> Now, Annie Besant, C. W. Leadbeater and Alice A. Bailey promotes
the idea of a carnalized saviour in the flesh. They do it by the use
of pseudo-Christian vocabulary, I will admit that. But they DO it.
>
> H. P. Blavatsky spoke about against this idea of emotionalism.
> And when people will teach theosophy they aught to consider the
following views by H. P. Blavatsky.
>
> H.P. Blavatsky wrote in December 1887:
>
> In CARNALIZING the central figure of the New Testament, in imposing
> the dogma of the Word MADE FLESH, the Latin Church sets up a
doctrine
> diametrically opposed to the tenets of Buddhist and Hindu
Esotericism
> and the Greek Gnosis. Therefore, there will always be an abyss
> between the East and the West, as long as neither of these dogmas
> yields. Almost 2,000 years of bloody persecution against HERETICS
> and INFIDELS by the Church looms before the Oriental nations to
> prevent them from renouncing their philosophic doctrines in favor of
> that which degrades the CHRISTOS principle. [372-373]
>
> ...the Christians, by localizing and isolating this great Principle,
> and denying it to any other man except Jesus of Nazareth (or the
> Nazar), CARNALIZE the Christos of the Gnostics; that alone prevents
> them having any point in common with the disciples of the Archaic
> Wisdom. . . . [374]
>
> . . . true Theosophists will never accept ...a Christ made
> Flesh. . . .[390]
>
> - - -
>
> C.W. XII, p. 501-
>
> (From the "Book of Discipline" in the schools of "Dzyan.")
>
> "1. To the earnest Disciple his Teacher takes the place of Father
and Mother. For, whereas they gave him his body and its faculties,
its life and casual form, the Teacher shows him how to develop the
inner faculties for the acquisition of the Eternal Wisdom.
>
> "2. To the Disciple each Fellow-Disciple becomes a Brother and
Sister, a portion of himself, for his interests and aspirations are
theirs, his welfare interwoven with theirs, his progress helped or
hindered by their intelligence, morality, and behavior through the
intimacy brought about by their co-discipleship.
>
> "3. A co-disciple or associate cannot backslide or fall out of the
line without affecting those who stand firm through the sympathetic
tie between themselves and the psychical currents between them and
their Teacher.
>
> "4. Woe to the deserter, woe also to all who help to bring his soul
to the point where desertion first presents itself before his mind's
eye, as the lesser of two evils. Gold in the crucible is he who
stands the melting heat of trial, and lets only the dross be burnt
out of his heart; accursed by Karmic action will find himself he who
throws dross into the melting-pot of discipleship for the debasement
of his fellow-pupil. As the members to the body, so are the disciples
to each other, and to the Head and Heart which teach and nourish them
with the life-stream of Truth.
>
> "5. As the limbs defend the head and heart of the body they belong
to, so have the disciples to defend the head and the heart of the
body they belong to (in this case Theosophy) from injury."
>
> (From the Letter of a Master.)
>
> " ... and if the limbs have to defend the head and heart of their
body, then why not so, also, the Disciples their Teachers as
representing the SCIENCE of Theosophy which contains and
>
> ----------
> * "So shalt thou be in full accord with all that lives; bear love
to men as though they were thy brother-pupils, disciples of one
Teacher, the sons of one sweet mother." (Vide Fragment III, in Voice
of the Silence, p. 49.)
> ----------
>
> Page 503
>
> includes the 'head' of their privilege, the 'heart' of their
spiritual growth? Saith the Scripture: -
>
> "He who wipeth not away the filth with which the parent's body may
have been defiled by an enemy, neither loves the parent nor honours
himself. He who defendeth not the persecuted and the helpless, who
giveth not of his food to the starving nor draweth water from his
well for the thirsty, hath been born too soon in human shape. "
>
> http://www.katinkah esselink. net/blavatsky/ articles/ v12/y1890_
052.htm
>
> M. Sufilight
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Pedro Oliveira
> To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 8:01 AM
> Subject: Theos-World Re: TS Adyar's policy or non-policy?
>
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-
> theosophy@ .> wrote:
>
> > So therefore I would keep recommending: Stop selling books by C.
> W. Leadbeater and his LLC Church.
>
> Why not burn them in public places, with sufficient notice given to
> those interested to attend? As a matter of fact, why stop at
> Leadbeater's books? Why not include Besant's, Arundale's,
> Jinarajadasa' s, Sri Ram's, Taimni's and perhaps many others?
>
> In view of the statemts included in it, such as the ones below,
> should not "The Secret Doctrine" be also considered as a book whose
> sale may not be allowed to go on?
>
> "The Aryan views of the symbolism were those of the whole Pagan
> world; the Semite interpretations emanated from, and were pre-
> eminently those of a small tribe, thus marking its national
features
> and the idiosyncratic defects that characterize many of the Jews to
> this day - gross realism, selfishness, and sensuality. They had
made
> a bargain, through their father Jacob, with their tribal deity,
self-
> exalted above all others, and a covenant that his "seed shall be as
> the dust of the earth"; and that deity could have no better image
> henceforth than that of the symbol of generation, and, as
> representation, a number and numbers." (SD, vol. II, p. 470)
>
> "But Phallic worship has developed only with the gradual loss of
the
> keys to the inner meaning of religious symbols; and there was a day
> when the Israelites had beliefs as pure as the Aryans have. But now
> Judaism, built solely on Phallic worship, has become one of the
> latest creeds in Asia, and theologically a religion of hate and
> malice toward everyone and everything outside themselves. Philo
> Judæus shows what was the genuine Hebrew faith. The sacred
Writings,
> he says, prescribe what we ought to do . . . commanding us to hate
> the heathen and their laws and institutions. They did hate Baal or
> Bacchus worship publicly, but left its worst features to be
followed
> secretly; and it is with the Talmudic Jews that the grand symbols
of
> nature were the most profaned. With them, as now shown by the
> discovery of the key to the correct Bible reading - Geometry, the
> fifth divine Science ("fifth" - because it is the fifth key in the
> series of the Seven Keys to the Universal esoteric language and
> symbology) was desecrated, and by them applied to conceal the most
> terrestrial and grossly sexual mysteries, wherein both Deity and
> religion were degraded." (SD, vol. II, p. 471)
>
> On the other hand, an easier solution would be to allow people the
> freedom to choose what they want to read and study. Alas, this has
> always been the most difficult path to follow, particularly for
those
> bred and born with the nourishment of the received truth.
>
> Pedro
>
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