Theos-Talk Archives (November 2008 Message tt00140)

Dear Morten,

>Why is that a dangerous model?<

It is dangerous because it detours round the Society's constitutional 
platform and its democratic process.  

>The main idea with the TS was and is hopefully, that each member 
will be strong enough to become a nucleus in herself or himself.<

This is an ideal to strive for but not the reality of the situation. 
And because members are not nucleuses of brotherhood yet they should  
apply to constitutional frame which role is to instruct and force 
them to behave in a fraternal manner.

>So creating a new TS running parallel with the present TS is not bad 
at all if the present TS is not running properly.<

Well, the experience with the Esoteric Section shows that it didn't 
achieve its goal and that its members didn't become cohesive and 
fraternal force in the TS, quite the contrary. Every organization 
established by a spiritual authority for the spiritual progress of 
its members sooner or later becomes by default autocratic and 
dogmatic. Here I agree with Krishnamurti: You can not organize the 
Spiritual Path. It is a matter of each individual.

>Each member is only a member voluntarily.
Each group its own nucleus.
One should know one on ones fruits.
And importantly: One should recognize truth when it is proven.<

Yes, exactly. Why create new TS which will possibly respect the 
original program, constitutional platform and objects in a greater 
degree if this is possible already within the present TS as every 
lodge, national society and federation has all freedom to do that. 
The work must be done from the ground not from the top. The top can 
just encourage this with its own example. There are no shortcuts to 
greater democracy and spirituality - every member has to do her/his 
own homework.   

>This is the idea of TS and the beginning to Chela-ship.<

Well, this is the big question. Is the TS a tool for Chela-ship? On 
individual level it can and should be. But I think that it is much 
more than that. It is a tool for greater harmony and peace in the 
world - if it will work as it was meant to work.

Warmest regards,
Anton


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Morten Nymann Olesen" <global-
theosophy@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Anton and friends
> 
> My views are:
> 
> Anton wrote:
> "In that way she established, in my view, a very dangerous model, 
> namely that any person who considers herself/himself or is regarded 
> by others as a spiritual teacher can arbitrarily decide who is 
loyal 
> to the Cause and original program of the Society and act 
accordingly. "
> 
> 
> M. Sufilight says:
> Why is that a dangerous model?
> 
> The main idea with the TS was and is hopefully, that each member 
will be strong enough to become a nucleus in herself or himself. So 
creating a new TS running parallel with the present TS is not bad at 
all if the present TS is not running properly.
> 
> 
> Each member are only a member volunterely.
> 
> Each group its own nucleus.
> One should know one on ones fruits.
> And importantly: One should recognize truth when it is proven.
> 
> "The bitter truth is that before man can know his own inadequacy, 
or the
> competence of another man or institution, he must first learn 
something
> which will enable him to perceive both. Note well that his 
perception
> itself is a product of right study; not of instinct or emotional
> attraction to the individual, nor yet of desiring to 'go it alone'. 
This
> is 'Learning How To
> Learn." (Idries Shah)
> 
> 
> This is the idea of TS and the beginning to Chela-ship.
> 
> 
> M. Sufilight
> 
> 
>   ----- Original Message ----- 
>   From: Anton Rozman 
>   To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
>   Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2008 7:05 AM
>   Subject: Theos-World Re:TS - Are we ready for a coup?
> 
> 
>   Dear friends,
> 
>   I think that we, members of the TS, can do an enormous service to 
the 
>   humanity if we will be able to solve the Society's problems in a 
>   democratic and fraternal manner. This is the reason why efforts 
to 
>   reform the Society are worthwhile. 
> 
>   Morten, you touched, in my opinion, the crucial problem: HPB 
actually 
>   said that she is loyal to HSO, not because he is President of the 
>   Society but because he is loyal to the Theosophical Cause and 
that 
>   the degree of her sympathy with the Theosophical Society and 
Adyar 
>   depends upon the degree of loyalty of that Society to the Cause. 
>   Should it break away or show disloyalty to that Cause, and the 
>   original program of the Society, she would shake it off like dust 
>   from her feet. 
> 
>   In that way she established, in my view, a very dangerous model, 
>   namely that any person who considers herself/himself or is 
regarded 
>   by others as a spiritual teacher can arbitrarily decide who is 
loyal 
>   to the Cause and original program of the Society and act 
accordingly. 
>   And already superficial overview of the TS history shows that 
those 
>   who considered themselves or were viewed by others as spiritual 
>   leaders (who are in touch with Masters or know what Masters 
thought) 
>   were at the same time source of disagreements and schisms in the 
>   Society. This model is still very alive and I think that the 
Society 
>   will not be able to solve its problems if it will not be able to 
>   address this issue properly. 
> 
>   And Richard's parody is wonderful indication of our ludicrous 
>   situation.
> 
>   Warmest regards,
>   Anton
> 
>   --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Drpsionic@ wrote:
>   >
>   > Choke choke laugh laugh choke laugh!
>   > 
>   > The scare part it is that it might be true!
>   > 
>   > Chuck the Heretic
>   > 
>   > 
>   > In a message dated 11/8/2008 6:55:16 P.M. Central Standard 
Time, 
>   > semockr@ writes:
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > I have heard that the Dalai Lama is dropping out of his 
position 
>   as 
>   > figurehead or spokesman for a free Tibet since none of his 
>   > initiatives in this regard have had the slightest impact on the 
>   > communist govt that has Tibet in its deadly embrace.
>   > 
>   > This implys that president elect Obama has approached him with 
an 
>   > offer to join his Administration of Change as secretary of 
Ancient 
>   > Wisdom which is a new department that is being formed in the 
>   > executive branch. DK & KH were originally approached for the 
>   position 
>   > but they would only agree to precipitate an email now and then 
by 
>   way 
>   > of communication and this was not sufficient contact to satisfy 
>   the 
>   > ex-hippies that Obama is seeding his cabinet with.
>   > 
>   > For the first time in history then, the SD has a real chance to 
>   > replace the Bible and to have Theosophy occupy its rightful 
place 
>   as 
>   > Law of the Land in the USA. After this has taken place, the 
other 
>   > countrys will fall in line and Theosophy will experience a 
>   resurgence 
>   > that will beggar description of any previous coup. 
>   > 
>   > --- In _theos-talk@yahoogrotheos-t_ (mailto:theos-
>   talk@yahoogroups.com) , 
>   > MKR <mkr777@> wrote:
>   > >
>   > > Well said.
>   > > 
>   > > "Proof of the pudding is in the eating."
>   > > 
>   > > Looking at the membership trend over the last 20 years world-
>   wide 
>   > outside of
>   > > India, there is a continuing steep decline. It continues 
every 
>   > minute.
>   > > 
>   > > The structure of TS was deliberately setup by the wise ones 
with 
>   > total
>   > > autonomy at lodge and section levels. So the buck stops at 
the 
>   > sections.
>   > > 
>   > > To address any problem, first correct problem has to be 
>   identified. 
>   > Then
>   > > solutions can be found.
>   > > 
>   > > Today's critical problem of TS is steep decline in membership 
in 
>   all
>   > > sections outside India. This is obvious. None of 
the "leaders" 
>   > even wants
>   > > to talk about it, because much of the decline took place in 
>   their 
>   > watch and
>   > > they have no explanation.
>   > > 
>   > > Meddling with International Rules is not going to do anything 
to 
>   > address the
>   > > membership growth, because TS is not a spiritual organization 
>   held 
>   > together
>   > > by blind followers with blind faith and blind beliefs.
>   > > 
>   > > It is all about a handful of GC members trying to do away 
with 
>   > members'
>   > > rights and seize power. That would give access to all the 
assets 
>   > which they
>   > > can spend as they want. In addition, they can put their 
Puppet 
>   as 
>   > the
>   > > President with wings clipped. Losers will be members, TS and 
>   > theosophy.
>   > > 
>   > > And it would destroy TS in our life time, as members leave.
>   > > 
>   > > That is where we are today.
>   > > 
>   > > MKR
>   > > 
>   > > On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 6:05 AM, Duane Carpenter 
>   > <monad_monad_monad_mon
>   > > > wrote:
>   > > 
>   > > > All membership comes from inspiration. All inspiration 
comes 
>   from
>   > > > enlightened leadership. It often takes great luminaries 
like 
>   HPB 
>   > to light a
>   > > > fire in those around them. If the structure of the 
Theosophical
>   > > > Society keeps out purposely or by default those of advanced 
>   > spiritual
>   > > > development they will never attract new members. If new and 
>   > enlightened
>   > > > leadership do not come into an organization or institution 
to 
>   > give it
>   > > > continue renewal and spiritual life that institution will 
die 
>   a 
>   > slow
>   > > > agonizing death from bureaucratic minutiae and 
organizational 
>   > suffocation.
>   > > > This is why some advocate revolution. If you cannot reform 
and 
>   > change the
>   > > > old structures you either create new ones in there place or 
>   get 
>   > out of the
>   > > > way and let those more responsive to the new Aquarian 
impulses 
>   do 
>   > there
>   > > > work.
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > > DC
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > > ____________ ____ ____ 
>   > > > From: MKR <mkr777@>
>   > > > To: _theos-talk@yahoogrotheos-t_ (mailto:theos-
>   talk@yahoogroups.com) 
>   > > > Sent: Saturday, November 8, 2008 6:46:43 AM
>   > > > Subject: Re: Theos-World Re:TS - Are we ready for a coup?
>   > > >
>   > > > From an ordinary intelligent person's view, as I have 
>   mentioned 
>   > several
>   > > > time
>   > > > previously, the most urgent real issue facing the TS is NOT 
>   > changing the
>   > > > rules.
>   > > >
>   > > > It is the rapid and continuing decline in the number of 
>   members 
>   > in all the
>   > > > sections outside India.
>   > > >
>   > > > TS was setup as fully autonomous at lodge and section 
levels. 
>   So 
>   > the
>   > > > problem
>   > > > is the problem of section leaders and hard work of the 
members 
>   in 
>   > the
>   > > > section. Any amount of meddling with the rules is going to 
do 
>   > nothing to
>   > > > address the problem. The only thing that will do to by 
>   tweaking 
>   > and
>   > > > meddling
>   > > > with the rules is for the GC members to disenfranchise the 
>   > members and
>   > > > seize
>   > > > the control of the presidency and thus effectively making 
the 
>   > president a
>   > > > puppet in the hands of a few GC members.
>   > > >
>   > > > Once this happens, in our life time we will see the end of 
TS 
>   > because we
>   > > > are
>   > > > not like other spiritual organizations whose basis is blind 
>   faith 
>   > and blind
>   > > > beliefs.
>   > > >
>   > > > Has anyone seen any GC member ever mention the membership 
>   decline 
>   > issue? It
>   > > > is a very sorry state of affairs.
>   > > >
>   > > > mkr
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > > On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 2:17 AM, Anton Rozman 
<anton_rozman@ant>
>   > > > wrote:
>   > > >
>   > > > > Dear friends,
>   > > > >
>   > > > > What is the main interest of the Theosophical Society as 
an
>   > > > > international institution or common interest of all 
members 
>   of 
>   > the
>   > > > > Theosophical Society?
>   > > > >
>   > > > > In first place, to neutralize all partial interests of 
>   > individual
>   > > > > members or groups of members which identify themselves 
with 
>   > those of
>   > > > > the Theosophical Society and in that way to be able to 
>   realize 
>   > its
>   > > > > objects on the basis of its constitutional platform. In 
>   present
>   > > > > situation common interest is wholly absent and crippled.
>   > > > >
>   > > > > The scissors and linen to overcome it are wholly in the 
>   hands 
>   > of the
>   > > > > elected President. She, and only she, has received a 
mandate 
>   to 
>   > unify
>   > > > > the Society under a common interest. She has the power 
and 
>   > authority
>   > > > > to do that.
>   > > > >
>   > > > > It is obvious that routine proceedings aren't enough to 
>   solve 
>   > actual
>   > > > > problem. According to Rules and Regulations the President 
has
>   > > > > authority to: � a special meeting may be called at 
any 
>   time by 
>   > the
>   > > > > President � the President at his discretion may 
call such 
>   > members to
>   > > > > a meeting for the purpose of study and discussion of any 
>   matters
>   > > > > concerning the Society that he considers appropriate to 
lay 
>   > before
>   > > > > them. The meeting may then forward to the President its 
>   report 
>   > on
>   > > > > such matters and may make recommendations thereon. Such 
>   meetings
>   > > > > shall be of a consultative nature without administrative 
or
>   > > > > legislative authority, or may be of a legislative nature 
>   upon 
>   > the
>   > > > > decision of the General Council taken at least one year 
in 
>   > advance.
>   > > > > In the event the President does not himself attend such a 
>   > meeting he
>   > > > > may appoint the Vice-President or some other member of 
the 
>   > General
>   > > > > Council to preside in his stead.
>   > > > >
>   > > > > On the basis of these Regulations and with the use of 
>   internet
>   > > > > technology an extended discussion panel can be formed to 
>   address
>   > > > > important critical issues. With making such discussion 
>   panel 
>   > public
>   > > > > the Theosophical Society would show to its members and 
>   public in
>   > > > > general that it is able to overcome divisions and find a 
>   common
>   > > > > interest according to the philosophy the Society is 
>   promoting.
>   > > > >
>   > > > > This is, in my opinion, the only way out from the death 
>   alley 
>   > we are
>   > > > > catched in.
>   > > > >
>   > > > > Warmest regards,
>   > > > > Anton
>   > > > >
>   > > > >
>   > > > >
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > > ------------ ---- ---- -
>   > > >
>   > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > > ------------ -------- -------- -----
>   > > >
>   > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > >
>   > > 
>   > > 
>   > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   > >
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
>   > 
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