Theos-Talk Archives (October 2008 Message tt00329)

Hi Raquel,

It happened that just few days ago I saw on the TV a documentary on 
Granada in times of Moors and on high culture they were able to 
achieve. So, I can imagine how inspiring these places are, especially 
for one of your profession. By the way, architecture was also my 
prime love and I studied it for couple of years, but because of bad 
living conditions and serious illness I have to quit it, but anyway 
later worked in a construction studio for five years. 

But let's go back to the story. I will try to stick with your analogy 
to present my understanding of the situation. 

There appeared a woman who said that there are ruins and countless 
excerpts in the scriptures of the world which witness that there have 
ever existed in the world certain knowledge on how to build edifices 
which reflect the Divine Order. She gathered these excerpts and 
arranged them in a system of knowledge based on some fundamental 
principles with the help, as she said, of some Architects. And then 
she added that one can become an Architect not only by studying this 
system but above all with the development of inner capabilities to 
come in direct contact with the Divine Order.

It was then decided that a model edifice will be raised up which will 
show to the people of the world that knowledge about this special 
system of construction exists and that it can help them to arrange 
better and peaceful community life. And it was further decided that 
anyone can participate in the building who profess respect and 
kindness towards other builders in the spirit of service to the 
community, as this is essential for this system of knowledge to work 
in practice and that the building of the edifice is successful and 
that community lives in peace.

And the construction began. The foundations were laid down according 
to the principles and building of the ground-floor was on the way. 
But there was no peace in the community of builders. There was no 
agreement on how to proceed. There were quarrels among builders as to 
the source of knowledge. Some doubted that inspired woman is really 
in contact with the Architects, others that they are in the contact 
with the Architects themselves, again others that the Architects do 
not exist at all. The woman was disappointed and left the building-
ground and established a special school for Architects. It seemed 
that only rare continued to care about the building of the model 
edifice and that the majority contemplated only on how to become 
Architects themselves. 

The woman passed away and a fight begun among her student-builders 
who will become head of the school for Architects - and school fell 
apart. Several minor schools appeared which tried to teach builders 
how to become Architects and to build model edifices, but none really 
succeeded. Those students who remained on the original building-
ground spoke that the woman and Architects, who supposedly were in 
touch with them, said that Great Architect will come and will teach 
student-builders how to finish model edifice to become place of 
worship for future generations. But Great Architect didn't come.

Community at large anyway benefited from the student-builders. They 
revealed to it the system of knowledge which to great extend 
influenced the community but it didn't bring peace to it. 
Professional builders in the community were very happy with the 
situation as it benefited their business and dependence of the 
community on their service. And they even decided that they will 
themselves arrange the false coming of the Great Architect.

But there were some student-builders who realized that the Great 
Architect arranged things in a way that life itself will represent a 
school for Architects. They realized that when they really profess 
respect and kindness towards others and the spirit of service to the 
community and that when they earnestly build on these foundations and 
divine principles, they themselves become model edifices of Divine 
Order.  

Epilogue

Student-builders decided to return to the original building-ground 
and establish atmosphere of mutual respect and kindness in the spirit 
of service to the community. They decided that they will overcome 
their individual conceptions on how to continue the construction and 
allow that new inspiration enlighten their aspirations.

?????????????????

So, dear Raquel, this is my perspective which differs from yours only 
in regard to the presumption that the "model edifice of Divine Order" 
was already built. I think that it was not; that its building began 
but was never really accomplished.

Thank you very much for your thoughts and warmest regards,
Anton


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Raquel Rodríguez <raquel_rpj@...> 
wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Hallo Anton
> It took me a wile to respond, because it took me a while to read 
articles you send me.
> I am glad you find of common sense my perspective, but I have to 
say after reading and getting more information about the whole 
subject, I have got myself very confused in the sense I really doubt 
my simple common sense in such a complex subject can help. But as I 
have been reading I have also been meditating.
>  
> Analogy it is better for me to use.
>  
> a.- Here in Granada we had buildings and irrigation systems sowing 
a the great knowledge of the people who constructed them, from the 
times of Moors. When Christians conquered the kingdom they where also 
so amazed by the engineer works, they wanted to amplified them, to 
show they were at lest as intelligent or even more,. They amplified 
an irrigation system that using natural wells from the mountain was 
able to give clean watter for house holding, hygiene and farming to 
all the citizens, rather close to their houses. So they made more 
canals and more containers. Not understanding the physical laws of 
the engineer that had design them, the only think they could do was 
to mix the clean watter with polluted one. In this way, all kind of 
diseases and pest afflicted the population and here we are in the 
inauguration of the dark middle ages.
> Other amazing buildings where modified on it´s structure to be also 
amplified. There is nothing left of the original as with the touching 
of the structure this became weaker and the whole building had to be 
reform in a very different way.
>  
> What do I mean with this?
>  
> What is the original structure of the Theosophical society and who 
their architects. No one who does not fully understand the Mean of 
the architect and it,scientific knowledge should transform such an 
structure.
>  
> I understand that the main object of TS is Brotherhood. This should 
be enough for people to work on the Theosophical building which 
central pillar is THE DOCTRINE teached by their architects. Ancient 
Wisdom.
> I also understand that in the building should be room for people of 
all creeds, and I don not believe that different, means 
contradictory. And who are the ones who are meant to maintain the 
original structure and teach it ?, 
> Should Theosophical Movement be the speakers corner of anyone who 
thinks has understood the doctrine and even more, has amplified it 
and even gone further than the Masters themselves.
> What happens when someone does not accept corrections even when 
coming direct from the architects and still persist in teaching a 
Doctrine when he is actually hallucinating and the architects 
themselves are warning that is an hallucination?.
>  
> I can imagine some people are resentfull. It has to be very hard to 
work on such a contradictional frame where others people work undo 
others labor. And all out of goodness. And I understand all points of 
view should be respected. But what happens when certain point of view 
becomes insulting? I´m not a good person to answer I have not such 
patience.
>  
> Some people desire that the society returns to the happy days when 
HPB was alive, so then What was the basic structure then and what 
made it crumble? Is it  not the cause that made it crumble one day 
the one that is making crumble now what it should be corrected?
>  
> To the way I see it, Theosophical Society was united when all 
members trusted their Masters and believed their teachings to be 
Truth. Truth should awake ones common sense and leave no doubt about 
it, still for the ones who are still on the beginning on the path, 
that can not see further, the only way to get a proof of what is 
being said about further on the path, it is very complicated, at 
least you are told by a person who has been there and you can trust 
this person is not lieing.
>  
> The Masters and HPB, made a extraordinary effort, to proof, they 
had the authority to talk about a path they had walked themselves and 
to my point of view, no one but them has proofed to be such a 
developed human being as to become an architect or to transform the 
original structure.
>  
> Theosophical society was united when everyone thought it was one 
Truth. Why new teachings should be accepted as theosophical if they 
are not considered to be Truth for the whole of the society. I don´t 
mean they should be denied, if some people wants to believe they have 
the right to do, but why should become part of the structure when not 
every one agrees. 
> Maybe any new hypothesis should remain like hypothesis until is 
proved. How can it be proved? By experience.
> Should not any new person claiming to be an architect able to 
amplify the structure, first proof that he has the experience to do 
it?
>  
> This may make nonsense anyway, I do not know if seeing all that is 
going on on TS at the moment, I would be able not to keep resented, 
most provably not I have to say I really see a great deal of 
ingratitude, pride and ego inflation on the whole thing, nothing 
different however of the problems that affect the whole humanity, 
myself included.
> The one that wants to be in power will keep on the society to 
maintain it. The one who loves Truth will keep in the society to 
maintain it and so polarised the society may go on but anyway:
> The Work was dedicated to all True Theosophist, of every country 
and of every race, for they called it forth and for them it was 
recorded.
>  
> And it was not in vane
>  
> Warmest Regards
>  
> Raquel
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  El mar, 7/10/08, Anton Rozman <anton_rozman@...> escribió:
> 
> De: Anton Rozman <anton_rozman@...>
> Asunto: Re: Theos-World Power Structures & Theosophical Societies, 
Groups
> Para: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> Fecha: martes, 7 octubre, 2008 7:07
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Raquel and all,
> 
> Thank you very much for excellent common sense perspective. As to 
> your point in regard to different teachings I would suggest that we 
> examine what F. Pierce Spinks said in his book: Theosophists: 
Reunite!
> 
> In the chapter Comparison of basic teachings
> 
> http://www.teozofij a.info/Spinks_ Theosophists_ Reunite_02. htm#/
> Comparison
> 
> after comparing some basic teachings F. Pierce Spinks concludes: 
> 
> It is plain that the basic doctrines dealt with have found complete 
> acceptance on the part of the authoritative writers of all 
> Theosophical groups. The similarity between the ideas expressed by 
> each author quoted, and the words of H.P.B., are quite evident.
> 
> Then in Conclusions
> 
> http://www.teozofij a.info/Spinks_ Theosophists_ Reunite_04. htm#/
> Conclusions
> 
> F. Pierce Spinks says: 
> 
> ? in their hearts all Theosophists really want to promote the best 
> interests of the Movement and ? our problems are due to honest, if 
> unwarranted, differences of opinion as to what is best for the 
> Movement. Of course, people have the right to differ, but this 
right 
> imposes on them the obligation to do so in a manner which is 
> constructive.
> 
> The Theosophical Society is a philosophical enterprise of such vast 
> importance that we cannot afford to dilute its energies by internal 
> weaknesses.
> 
> The Theosophical edifice must be soundly structured, with all its 
> parts in harmonious relationship. It is not up to the Masters to 
> restore our integrity. We must advance towards Them, towards the 
> position of strength and wisdom from which we retreated.
> 
> Despite seeming difficulties we call for an immediate return to the 
> integrity, dignity and strength of a reunited Movement, a Movement 
> which will truly and effectively serve those Great Men who gave it 
> birth and who are even now watching and hoping to see it cleansed 
of 
> its unsatisfactory features so that it may worthily represent them 
as 
> their organ on this earth for useful and practical work among men.
> 
> The seriousness of the times and the pitiful sufferings of our 
> fellowmen demand, as said, nobility of spirit from all of us. We 
must 
> not wait until it is too late.
> 
> Only a truly united Theosophical Movement can hope to take its 
place 
> in a world challenged as never before by dynamic forces. Love is 
the 
> missing link in inter-Theosophical relations.
> 
> You must take the initiative in seeking out and finding ways of 
> learning and sharing what you hold in mutual high esteem. New 
> experiments are needed in an effort to reconcile past differences. 
No 
> doors must be shut because of a belief background. Saturate 
> everything you do with the spirit of love and brotherhood. You, the 
> members of the Theosophical Society, will then speak with power and 
> authority because you will be daily demonstrating that which you 
> profess.
> 
> A new attack is to be made on ignorance and it will need all 
members 
> of the Theosophical family in ranks that are closed against 
> suspicions, doubts, yes, even hatreds of one another. The task 
ahead 
> demands the combined efforts of all of you pulling in one direction 
> under a unified command.
> 
> You have an obligation to the coming generation of Theosophists and 
> to those now unborn to bequeath to them a Movement soundly 
structured 
> in accord with the vision of the Founders, one free of resentments, 
> party lines, or any form of bitterness. It must be a Movement 
wholly 
> fit for use by us. The program that lies ahead is too important and 
> grand in scope to be circumscribed with limitations imposed by 
human 
> weaknesses and local loyalties.
> 
> If you embrace this program then the Theosophical Society will be 
> emblazoned on the pages of religious history as a tool of vast 
> importance in solving the troubled affairs of men; for it will then 
> be worthy of use by Messengers who will use its platform for 
> dispelling ignorance - Messengers who will be recognized because 
all 
> their works will breathe beneficence and peace.
> 
> We now await the day when you shall have accomplished the plan we 
> have just laid before you. We are eager to see it done so that we 
can 
> again come among you and help you. Then and only then can Isis be 
> further unveiled. Non-cooperation and disunity mean disintegration 
> and death. Unification and harmony mean growth and vital expansion 
> beyond your fondest dreams. Lift your hearts to the Light and seize 
> with strength and with joy this golden opportunity.
> 
> ............ ...
> 
> Warmest regards,
> Anton
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com, Raquel Rodríguez 
<raquel_rpj@ ...> 
> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Morten
> >  
> > I found the letter nº 47, highly interesting, this gives a great 
> hope to True Theosophy to continue its true work, as I can see the 
> actual TS is really ill from its very inner structure. 
> > I give the link here if someone it is interested
> > http://www.theosoci ety.org/pasadena /mahatma/ ml-47.htm
> >  
> > I would like to give my humble opinion as an outside member of 
the 
> society, I migth be totally wrong, but if I can compare 
analogically 
> TS with Architecture I would say, they are so many problems within 
> the TS, that it would be difficult to find out how to begin to 
fixed 
> up
> >  
> > I am a builder especialized in restoration of old historical 
> buildings.
> >  
> > When a building is to be restored a diagnosis of its pathologies 
> must be done, from an especialized architect in order to proceed 
> efficiently. An especific order must be followed depending of the 
> diagnosis.
> > a.- Foundations and main structure (obviously)
> > b.- Roof and facades. The first will keep the structure together 
> and protected it, The second if not necessary yet, keeps the inner 
> repairs away from public. It means, that even when in the inside 
much 
> work has to be done, the general public does not have to be 
bothered 
> from the dust and noise and ugliness of the inner work and at the 
> same time, they can have already an idea of how beautiful the 
> building will be when it is finished.
> > c.- Distribution of space, Inside divisions and finally 
decoration. 
> >  
> > Well, for what I have been reading on this forum, the main 
> and foundation problem of the TS, 
> > a.- Ledbeater and Beasant, or NeoTheosophy, How can a Society be 
> united if it is divided in to diametrical opposed teachings?. Or 
even 
> more, they are not diametrical opposed, HPB teaching would be the 
> foundation stone and Leadbeater the pathology. This has to be 
fixed, 
> but do not ask me how, I am not an architect. Seems complicated to 
me 
> anyhow, as I ignore many factors. But I can not really understand 
> that both teachings are coexisting until today, under the same roof 
> of the same society. 
> >  
> > b.- You mention new teachers are needed. I would compare this 
with 
> roofs and facades.
> > I think they are already good teachers, maybe what is wrong is 
that 
> they are not recognized by the whole of the Society as such, and 
> that's the problem. General public would get confused and 
> contradictory information from different teachers.
> >  
> > c.- Inside distribution. Actual politics and hierarchization. If 
> the first too are solved properly this should not be a great 
problem, 
> of course would be discussion about who would get by the biggest 
> window and not everyone would be completely happy, but with unity 
> every one should be happy to have a place to develop the work they 
> love. and democracy would ensure that every one would have the 
right 
> to, one day, be able to work by the nicest window. 
> > However if the first two are not solved it does not matter how 
many 
> discussions, cracks would come out of the walls constantly, does 
not 
> matter how much you paint and leaks out of the ceiling. 
> > What it is worst a great deal of energy, that could be conduced 
on 
> a more creative an so for useful way, would be wasted in covering 
up 
> what from the structure is wrong.
> >  
> > But a pathology I can not really understand in TS, it is what 
Power 
> means for a Theosophist. Is the salary of the president very high 
or 
> the power is about to posses Truth? This is a very preoccupying 
> pathology.
> >  
> > Raquel
> > 
> > --- El dom, 5/10/08, Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ ...> 
> escribió:
> > 
> > De: Morten Nymann Olesen <global-theosophy@ ...>
> > Asunto: Re: Theos-World Power Structures & Theosophical 
Societies, 
> Groups
> > Para: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com
> > Fecha: domingo, 5 octubre, 2008 8:02
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Dear Daniel and all readers
> > 
> > Yes.
> > This link and most of its questions need to be answered:
> > "...we have to preach and popularise a knowledge of 
theosophy."? ??
> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/message/ 41824
> > 
> > My views:
> > New teachers are needed. And the teaching needs to be clearly 
> forwarded again, and again, so that there is no doubt about where 
the 
> various groups are going astray, when they are going astray. This 
> aught to be done taking time, place, people and circumstances into 
> account. And this is where the skilled teacher is needed, so we all 
> can help each other.
> > 
> > Yet I claim: The Masters have other work going on that most 
> theosophist do not have an inkling of even today. (See - Mahatma 
> Letters - no 47 - A.T. Barker)
> > 
> > - - - - - - -
> > Earliere in 2004 I wrote the following at Theos-talk.. ..
> > Theosophical thought, Experience and Teaching"There is a vast 
> accumulation of theosophical teachings, much of it inwritings, 
which 
> would-be students plough through, looking fortheosophy (Wisdom of 
the 
> Gods), and wondering why it seems,so often, self-contradictory. The 
> simple answer is that this materialis largely time-and-culture- 
> based. Most of it was prescribed forspecific audiences at certain 
> times and under particular conditions.Choosing the relevant 
materials 
> for any time is a specialised task.To try to make sense of all of 
it 
> would be like taking a bundle ofmedical prescriptions, issued over 
> the years to a variety of people,and working out one's own therapy 
> from such largely irrelevantpapers - and without a certain 
> specialised knowledge. TheosophicalTeachin g is PRESCRIBED.Such 
parts 
> of the theosophical Classics, stories, and lettersand lectures and 
so 
> on which apply to the individual and the grouptoday - have to be 
> selected and applied consciously
> > and appropriately, by someone who is attuned to certain 
> realities."http://www.theosoph y.com/theos- talk/200407/ 
tt00327.html
> > M. Sufilight
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: danielhcaldwell 
> > To: theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com 
> > Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 4:38 AM
> > Subject: Theos-World Power Structures & Theosophical Societies, 
> Groups
> > 
> > All of the existing Theosophical groups, societies
> > and associations (Adyar, Pasadena, ULT, Arcane School, etc.)
> > have current "power structures" - any of which may impede or 
> obstruct 
> > in one way or another a better understanding of Theosophical 
> > teachings and history.
> > 
> > Unfortunately, all of the various Theosophical Societies and
> > groups have "mind-sets" which may "mislead" and "confuse"
> > inquirers and new students to Theosophy.
> > 
> > BELOW are some postings I have previously submitted to 
> > Theos-Talk which may help interested inquirers and students
> > gain a greater understanding of the Theosophical Movement
> > as well as any one Theosophical Society or group.
> > 
> > Daniel
> > http://hpb.cc
> > 
> > Reference Sources on Theosophy Available thru Answers.com
> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/message/ 41775
> > 
> > Independent Students & the Theosophical Movement
> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/message/ 39419
> > 
> > Ancient Wisdom Revived: A History of the Theosophical Movement
> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/message/ 40246
> > 
> > The Theosophical Movement: Suggested Reading
> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/message/ 41456
> > 
> > Should an "ideal" Theosophical Society study & "promote" these 
> books?
> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/message/ 40990
> > 
> > "...we have to preach and popularise a knowledge of 
theosophy."? ??
> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/message/ 41824
> > 
> > One of Konstantin's Statements & Larger Issues
> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/message/ 41848
> > 
> > Don't confuse the Esoteric School with the Theosophical Society
> > http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/theos- talk/message/ 40486
> > 
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