Theos-Talk Archives (October 2008 Message tt00142)

I thought you meant that the electric fan was in China but I see now its in your back window
Cass



----- Original Message ----
From: "Drpsionic@aol.com" <Drpsionic@aol.com>
To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, 6 October, 2008 4:04:24 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: "Mindset" of current Adyar TS officials/leaders influence...


I was rather hoping it would be Beijing, but I'll have to do the experiment 
to see what happens.

Chuck the Heretic


In a message dated 10/5/2008 7:24:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
silva_cass@yahoo. com writes:

Blow Taiwan off the face of the map

----- Original Message ----
From: "_Drpsionic@aol. Drp_ (mailto:Drpsionic@aol. com) " <_Drpsionic@aol. Drp_ 
(mailto:Drpsionic@aol. com) >
To: _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos-talk@yahoogro ups.com) 
Sent: Sunday, 5 October, 2008 1:52:33 PM
Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: "Mindset" of current Adyar TS officials/leaders 
influence...

If a butterfly can create a hurricane in China, I wonder what an electric 
fan aimed out the window can do?

Chuck the Heretic

In a message dated 10/4/2008 3:17:58 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
_dnoga@att.net_ (mailto:dnoga@att.net) writes:

--- In _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos- --- In _theos-talk@ 
yahoo
"nhcareyta" <nhcareyta@. nh> wrote:
>
> Dear Daniel and All
> 
> Daniel, you have reminded us again of a matter of 
> potentially greatest significance for any genuine
> truth-seeker, that of mindset.
> 
> How we think and why we think the way we do, 
> is of paramount importance on our spiritual journey. 
> It impacts on every opinion we hold and, perhaps 
> most importantly, on every decision we make.
> 
> As with our individual journey, so too organizations, 
> made up of individuals, must attend to a process of 
> self-reflection and analysis.
> 
> As Betty Bland writes in a recent article 
> "Butterflies Are Not Free", both Theosophy and the 
> science of chaos theory suggest, "If a butterfly 
> flutters its wings in China, there will be a powerful 
> hurricane in the Atlantic."
> This affirms that each action, however small, 
> contributes to the whole effect and moreover that 
> each tiny action has a substantially greater effect 
> further along the chain.
> 
> The current election difficulties of the Theosophical 
> Society (Adyar) has brought forth demands from 
> such current and past leaders as Bishop Pedro Oliviera, 
> Dr John Algeo and Miss Joy Mills for the freedoms 
> of thought and expression of individual members 
> of their Society to be uppermost in the minds of 
> elected officials. 
> 
> This is highly commendable, deserving of the 
> most sincere support. Openness and frankness, 
> transparency and freedom are fundamental to
> Theosophy's mandate.
> 
> However, from my experience in the Adyar Society 
> this is not always the case.
> To offer one example, nowhere in any official 
> Society newsletter or publication have I seen or 
> read an article severely critical of Bishop 
> Leadbeater, his writings or behaviour. 
> Indeed, in recent years a past contributor to this 
> forum was disallowed to rejoin his membership 
> of the Adyar Society due to his challenges involving 
> Bishop Leadbeater. 
> Why might this be so?
> 
> Bishop Leadbeater was a proven, compulsive liar. 
> Does this matter? Yes it should for an organization 
> dedicated to the search for Truth, which includes 
> honesty and openness.
> 
> He comprehensively contradicted and misrepresented 
> teachers he claimed to represent. 
> Does this matter? Once again, yes it should for the 
> aforementioned reasons.
> 
> He made fantastical "clairvoyant" claims that have 
> subsequently been proven to be a fantasy of his 
> own mind. 
> Should this matter? Certainly, if only for the 
> reputation of genuine Theosophy.
> 
> He climbed naked into bed with naked young boys 
> in his care. Should this matter? Surely a response 
> is not required? * See below.
> 
> Given the immense influence Bishop Leadbeater's 
> writings have on new and some older students, 
> shouldn't these matters be regularly aired within the 
> Adyar Society to ensure that truth, openness and 
> transparency remain uppermost in the minds of its 
> leaders. This would ensure its members are fully 
> informed, most especially because that Society 
> publishes, promotes and sells his works? 
> 
> Or has the mindset of blind, ill-considered, 
> obedient devotion or a perverted sense of 
> "freedom" clouded their judgement?
> 
> Or indeed, is there an unwritten rule to protect 
> Bishop Leadbeater and his past and present devotees 
> because they make up a not insignificant proportion 
> of interested students in the Adyar Society?
> 
> If this is the case, and the Theosophical teachings of 
> interconnectedness, interrelatedness and
> interdependence (chaos theory) are true, surely leaders' 
> mindsets supporting this subterfuge cannot therefore claim 
> not to have contributed in part to the current political 
> situation where transparency and the free rights of 
> members are allegedly being denied?
> 
> Regards
> Nigel
> 
> * For those who have in the past suggested that 
> Bishop Leadbeater was training his children in 
> sex magic, may I offer this perspective. 
> Sex magic involves highly complex and concentrated 
> rituals and formulae used within a ceremonial setting. 
> It has nothing to do with a male adult getting into bed 
> with a young male child and engaging in masturbation, 
> a practice Bishop Leadbeater admitted. 
> Bishop Leadbeater was a paedophile. 
> Those who dispute this, please study the subject. 
> 
> 
> --- In _theos-talk@ yahoogrotheos- t_ (mailto:theos- --- In _theos-talk@ 
yaho
"danielhcaldwell" 
> <danielhcaldwell@ > wrote:
> >
> > Nigel Carey once wrote on Theos-Talk
> > about "the blindly, obedient mindset" to be found
> > among some Adyar TS members.
> > 
> > Now we find on Theos-Talk a great deal of discussion and
> > even complaining, etc. about how elected leaders and officials act 
> or 
> > don't act in conducting the business of the Adyar T.S.
> > 
> > I ask: Have the "mindsets" of these elected leaders
> > and officials been created and influenced by the "thought 
> atmosphere" 
> > engendered by C.W. Leadbeater and Annie Besant? 
> > 
> > Or at least to some degree?
> > 
> > CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING OUTSTANDING EXAMPLES:
> > 
> > What kind of "mindset" was C.W. Leadbeater encouraging
> > when he declared the following???
> > 
> > ------------ ---- ---- ---- ---- 
> > What can I say to you of your [T.S.] President [Annie
> > Besant] that you do not know already? Her colossal
> > intellect, her unfailing wisdom, her unrivalled
> > eloquence, her splendid forgetfulness of self,
> > her untiring devotion of work for others - all
> > these are but a small part of her greatness;
> > they are on the surface, they may be seen by all,
> > they leap to the eyes. But there are other qualities,
> > other powers, of which you cannot know, because they
> > pertain to the secrets of Initiation. She is a
> > pupil of our Masters; from the fount of Their
> > archaic wisdom she derives her own, the plans which
> > she is carrying out are Their plans for the welfare
> > of the world. THINK THEREFORE, HOW GREAT AN
> > HONOUR IT IS FOR YOU that you should be permitted
> > to work under her, for in doing so you are virtually
> > working under Them. THINK HOW WATCHFUL YOU SHOULD
> > BE TO MISS NO HINT WHICH FALLS FROM HER LIPS, to carry
> > out EXACTLY whatever instructions she may give to you.
> > 
> > Remember...there will be times when you cannot
> > understand her motives, for she is taking into account
> > many things which you cannot see and of which
> > she must not tell you. BUT WHETHER YOU UNDERSTAND
> > OR NOT, YOU WILL BE WISE TO FOLLOW HER IMPLICITLY, JUST
> > BECAUSE SHE KNOWS.
> > 
> > THIS IS NOT MERE SUPPOSITION ON MY PART, NO MERE
> > FLIGHT OF THE IMAGINATION; I HAVE STOOD BESIDE YOUR
> > PRESIDENT IN THE PRESENCE OF THE SUPREME DIRECTOR
> > OF EVOLUTION ON THIS GLOBE, AND I KNOW WHEREOF I
> > SPEAK. Let the wise hear my words, and act accordingly.
> > ------------ ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
> > 
> > [Caps added. Quoted from Adyar Album, p. 45.]
> > 
> > It might be noted here that one of the HINTS that fell from
> > Mrs. Besant's lips (or at least came from her pen!) was as follows:
> > 
> > "By hard, patient work he [C.W. Leadbeater] has won
> > rewards . . . until he stands perhaps the most trusted of his
> > Master's disciples ON THE THRESHOLD OF DIVINITY."
> > [The Theosophist, November 1911, p. 308 Caps added.]
> > 
> > And in 1925 Annie Besant herself said the following to the 
> > Theosophical world and members of the Adyar T.S.:
> > 
> > "And now I have to give you, by command of the King, His message,
> > and some of the messages of the Lord Maitreya and His great
> > Brothers. . . what I am saying, as to matter of announcement, is
> > definitely at the command of the King whom I serve.
> > 
> > His taking possession of His chosen vehicle . . . will be soon.
> > Then He will choose, as before, His twelve apostles . . . and their
> > chief, the Lord Himself. He has already chosen them, but I have only
> > the command to mention seven who have reached the stage of 
> Arhatship,
> > Who were the 'Arhats'?
> > 
> > The first two, my brother Charles Leadbeater and myself, . . . C.
> > Jinarajadasa, . . . George Arundale, Oscar Kollerstrom, . . . 
> Rukmini
> > Arundale....
> > 
> > I left out one and must leave out another. Naturally, our
> > Krishnaji [Jiddu Krishnamurti] was one, but he is to be the vehicle
> > of the Lord. And the other is one who is very dear to all of us, as
> > to the whole Brotherhood: Bishop James Wedgwood. He had borne his
> > crucifixion before the seal of Arhatship was set upon him by his 
> King.
> > Those are the first seven of the twelve whom He has chosen, with
> > Himself as the thirteenth. 'Ye call me Master and Lord, and ye do
> > well, for so I am.'
> > 
> > Now the wonder may come into your mind: H.P.B. was the only one
> > who was really announced as the messenger of the Master. Since then
> > the world has grown a good deal, and it is possible that while the
> > few may be repelled, many thousands will be attracted to the
> > Christ. . . . Whatever the effect, since He has said it, it is
> > done. . ."
> > 
> > The Theosophist, November, 1925
> > 
> > Daniel
> > __http://hpb.cc_ _ (http://hpb.cc_ /) (_http://hpb.cc/ _ (http://hpb.cc/) ) 
> >
>

I find this topic very interesting, as it is just recently that I have
come to question the teachings of Besant and Leadbeater. I think that
a relation of my experiences can add to this subject.

I am relatively new to the Society--I joined in October of 2006.
Before that time, I had read a couple of books from Quest, had heard
of Blavatsky mostly in relationship to the Spiritualist movement, and
was interested in learning more. I had studied many different esoteric
systems and ideas before joining.

I live very near the National Center in Wheaton, IL, and no sooner had
I joined than I started to volunteer there regularly. I started asking
people about a good approach to studying Theosophy. I figured out that
the Secret Doctrine is a central text (probably *the* central text, if
you had to pick just one), but everybody I asked at the National
Center strongly recommended that I *not* begin by trying to study the
Secret Doctrine. The approach that was recommended to me (I do not
remember by whom) was to first study Besant and Leadbeater, and then,
after studying their work deeply and familiarizing myself with the
concepts, to study the Doctrine. So that is what I did. I studied
Besant and Leadbeater for over a year--they have both written quite a
lot, so I always felt that there was more to learn from them. In so
doing, I definitely got into their mindset. It is very interesting to
me how little their writing seems to encourage freedom of thought.
Quite the opposite, it seems to me to provide a rigid path for
spiritual development, all the while calling it THE path, the one and
only. They are always saying, "The student will do this," "the
Initiate will know that," etc.

I was once very free-thinking, myself, very much building my own
worldview. When I came to the TS, I had decided to try a different
way--to not assume I know everything, and to assume a more humble
approach, considering myself a student. Boy did I pick the time! It
seems Leadbeater and Besant have very strong convictions about what a
student does and does not do, think or even feel.

At any rate, I feel that I should mention that it was not until
recently, when I began stepping into the Theosophical scene online and
being exposed to other viewpoints, that it even occurred to me how far
Besant and Leadbeater might have taken things from Blavatsky--as I
said, I remember being specifically discouraged from engaging
Blavatsky's work until after I had a solid grounding in Besant and
Leadbeater. I simply trusted what I was told, being new to Theosophy,
and followed advice--advice given in a vacuum, I must point out.

I work at the Wheaton center now--I have for over a year--and I must
also admit that I can see the influence of teachings of Besant and
Leadbeater very prominently, from where I sit. It's not so much in the
specifics, but in a pervasive attitude that seems to have a strong
foothold. I've never been to Adyar, but by the sounds of things, what
I am talking about is even more pervasive there. It's simply a way of
looking at the Path that is rooted in the spirit of the objective and
absolute, one which doesn't seem to pay enough respect to the
subjective and relative aspects of life and spirituality- subjective an
view has its implications (which feel more like demands) for how a
life should be lived, how business should be conducted, etc. It all
seems very in line with what Besant and Leadbeater put across. I can
see a correlation- see a correlation- <WBR>-there is something to the idea t
a distant influence to this day.

And I suppose it only makes sense, since Besant and Leadbeater spent a
lot of time at Adyar, that their "vibes" are still present
there--especially if they were occultists of any advancement.
Buildings and places do tend to hold such energies for quite some
time--especially if they are reinforced by subsequent inhabitants- time
in many cases it is not until a change is positively asserted that the
patterns shift (such as an exorcism or cleansing). Rather, it is more
likely that certain energies are replenished even to this day. 

Let it not escape notice that Leadbeater was a Bishop in the Liberal
Catholic Church, and that Annie Besant and Leadbeater were both
Co-Masons--and that today, there is still an active Masonic Temple and
a Liberal Catholic Church on the grounds at Adyar. I am not sure on
this fact, but it is probably the case, as well, that both the Church
and Temple carry a direct, unbroken lineage of continued operation
that runs back to when both Besant and Leadbeater were still alive.
Also, the cornerstone of the main building at Olcott was laid in
Masonic fashion, with Besant present at the ceremony--so the same
energies can be said to have been infused there. A Co-Masonic lodge
also meets at Olcott.

I can't speak to the case in any other Section, but there are many
esoteric implications of all of this. India and America are the two
largest and most influential Sections of the Society, and there are
very strong esoteric links to this day that connect back to Besant and
Leadbeater-- Leadbeater- -<WBR>this 

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