Theos-Talk Archives (July 2008 Message tt00157)

To all readers

My views are:

I saw the support Williams words was given at this forum.
I am not supporting his words very much. In fact I disagree very much!

Yet, my answer in the below is not so much about disagreeing with the words given by William as it is seeking to be of service to the readers of this e-mail. So my words might be blunt, but my heart is always there among you Seekers after the Truth - the non-emotional Truth. The Truth working against emotional Messiah cults!

Let the Truth be known.

- - - - - - - -

1.
"UNDERSTANDING KRISHNAMURTI 

The problem with understanding Krishnamurti is Not Krishnamurti, but the tendency of our minds to form pre-conceptions and expectations. "

M. Sufilight answers:
But that goes also for all other teachers. The true Avatars are always easily known on their fruits. 
So what is so special with J. Krishnamurti?


2.
"When C.W. Leadbeater discovered young Krishnaji and his brother on the beach at Adyar he unmistakebly knew that there was something very special about this child. "


M. Sufilight answers:
So you are telling me and others, that Just 3 years after Leadbeater taught boys to masturbate in an immoral manner and sleeping with them alone, he was suddenly very wise, and knew a whole lot about who J. Krishnamurti was. He in fact could singel-handed spot a Messiah swimming almost naked near TS headquarters.
C. W. Leadbeater not only claimed that. He also claimed that J. Krishnamurti was the World Teacher to come. The Maitreya. In a letter or two C. W. Leadbeater claimed this as early as 1911 if not before. We have touched upon this at this forum earliere on.

Read about the trial of J. Krishnamurti's father against C. W. Leadbeater & Annie Besant and the accusations about Leadbeater's abuse of J. Krishanmurti.

Here are some of the PDF-files from the C. W. Leadbeater court cases 
http://krotonaarchives.com/Charles_W._Leadbeater_Cases.html
THERE IS NO RELIGION HIGHER THAN THE TRUTH.

Sure a Messiah riding on a "honest donkey". 
Sure, a very "clever" manner of descending into the physical.


3.
"In consultation with Dr. Besant they are said to have received special information from the Masters of Wisdom about Krishnamurtis' future. "

M. Sufilight answers:
But, that is just like when the Pope is said to be able to talke Ex Cathedra, and nobody but the emotional fools agree with that view. Theosophy is the Wisdom teachings of all ages past and NOT emotional tribalism with the rest of all reason. H. P. Blavatsky stated this several times. We always know people on their fruits and not by strange Propaganda. 

Tell me what are the difference/similarities between Shankaracharya and J. Krishnamurti? Tell me why are J. Krishnamurti's teachings and spiritual fruits on a higher level than for instance Ramana Maharshi, Amma, B. T. Spalding, Yogananda, Sai Baba, Idries Shah and H. P. Blavatsky? Then we might agree.


4.
"Krishnamurti was to be the vehicle of expression for the next appearance of The World Teacher. Although Great and Respected Leaders, Leadbeater and Besant were products of their time, and I think that we can forgive them if Krishnamurtis' role was slightly different from what they had expected."

M. Sufilight answers:
People will always be forgiven, when they themselves are ready. And not through Christian-like prayers. But should we simply ignore the great number of inconcistencies, faults and blunders, that were made by both Annie Besant and especially by C.W. Leadbeater and J. Krishnamurti as well? No, Never and never! There is no Religion Higher than Truth.


5.
"Krishnamurti surprised many people who had "other" preconceived notions of "What" the World Teacher should be and do."
 
M. Sufilight answers:
Now you tell me if those surprises of his was creating spiritual fruits on a level fitting for a World Teacher or just on a level of a philosopher and author a tiny bit above average? And was this propagandized World Teacher's spiritual impact in fact not on a lower level than the one given by H. P. Blavatsky? A World Teacher who to everyones surprise did not come on a donkey this time, but who was promoted and said to be discovered by a "boy-bed-caring" man named C. W. Leadbeater. What a surprise!


6.
"Krishnamurti did Not denounce Theosophy or distance himself from it. To the very last day he always considered Annie Besant as "Amma", a term of endearment meaning "mother." "

M. Sufilight answers:
I wonder why it is necessary for you to write this?
Did he often refer to H. P. Blavatsky's teachings or theosophical teachings or did he not?
I conclude he did not.

J. Krishnamurti's as far as I know never talked about the dangers of black magic as performed by Pratekhya Buddhists, who walk the Path in solitude. Yet he recommended people to walk the Pathless Path in solitude.


7.
"What Krishnamurti Did do was to denounce the reliance on any oganization, or outside persona 
no matter who that person was or claimed to be. He taught that you do not need organizations, you do not need Gurus, you do not need Priests or intermediaries. Look to Ishvar Guru, the Atman within, this is the Only Guru you need.
 

The complete essence of Krishnamurtis teaching is..... 

"YOU ARE THE WORLD, LOOK IN THE MIRROR, LOOK WITHIN." 

It is message of uncompromising Self-Reliance, Self-Responsibility and Self-Effort. "


M. Sufilight answers:
Others have taught this for centuries. There is nothing new in this. We call this theoopshical teaching. The initiates live in the world but is not of the world. The Great White Lodge is no ordinary group or organisation working in any manner resembling average human thought-patterns.
If J. Krishnamurti's style of writing had been on a level where there was a sign of a deep understanding of the 7 keys and Senzar we might have agreed on that he was a great Teacher.


8.
"It is a hard message for an immature humanity that does not want to take Self-Responsibility for their actions and lives but craves for an outside "Savior." In past ages when the bulk of humanity was still immature we did need "Saviors." The evolution of consciousness has come to a point where external "Saviors" are no longer needed, they are now a hindrance. 

It is now possible for many of us to take Self-Responsibility, Self-Reliance and Self-Effort for our own Spiritual growth and evolution to Perfection. "


M. Sufilight answers:
Try to have a Look at my previous comment.


9.
"Yet, out of Compassion and Charity for the young souls still among us we are not to be iconoclastic and denounce all religion and ceremonies as useless trivia. Although we may have come to a point in our evolution where we do Not need religion and ceremonies ourselves, as we have seen that they are "crutches" we no longer really need, there Are many many young souls and immature beings who still Do need those crutches." 

M. Sufilight answers:
I would suggest, that we recommend that they to go elsewhere. What they need is not theosophical teachings. They need something else. What they need is today available at a great number of places not called theosophical or at places who dare call themselves theosophical, but which is not theosophical at all. H. P. Blavatsky threw those kinds of non-theosphical leaders out in her day.
Try for instance Brahmin and Co. - here: http://www.blavatskyarchives.com/hpbes1extract.htm



10.
"There is absolutely Nothing wrong with using a crutch If we need one. The problem comes in when we make a fetish out of the crutch and don't see it for what it is, we make an idol out of the crutch. 
Keeping an "Open Mind" is always a problem for us, as we have a tendency to form pre-conceptions that give us a false sense of comfort and security. When things work out as things work out, and they don't comform to our expctations...we are dis-illusioned and feel betrayed. In reality we should be happy that we have been "dis-illusioned" in confronting Reality."


M. Sufilight answers:
Agreed. But such "crutches" as we call "emotional Messiah crutches" are not part of the doctrine within the theosophical groups based on H. P. Blavatsky's teachings

 

11.
"That was the major problem with Krishnamurti, Not that he was Not the expression of The World Teacher, but that he did not conform to peoples pre-conceived expectations. "

M. Sufilight answers:
Well, Then everyone can be called a World Teacher. Such a teaching is silly. I still find it to be true, that we shall know each other on our fruits. J. Krishnamurti included. This is something H. P. Blavatsky and others have emphasised quite often.



12.
"We can see this same dynamic at work in another occurance. H.P.B. wrote that in the last quarter of each century a major Spiritual impetus would occur. People started imagining what this "Spiritual" occurance would be and had many different expectations. Many were disappointed when they did not see anything 
notable "Spiritual" occur at all."

M. Sufilight answers:
Some of us have seen it. The emotional fanatics are not often seeing these things. True Seekers after Truth with no predetermined agenda know about it.
Not that I agree with Sai Baba. But, let me ask: Have you ever compared the fruits of Sai Baba with those of J. Krishnamurti? What was the differences/similarities?
 
Each day three new Messiah's and Avatars as well as Napoleons emerge on the world stage or at our local country's psychiatric wards. Now you tell me who is who?

Just look at Share International and their stunt.

13.
"The fact that the advent of a musical group, The Beatles, spearheaded a major change in world consciousness does not occur to them as a "major spiritual impetus." One need only to look at pre- and post- Beatle world consciousness to see the difference."

M. Sufilight answers:
Well I can without hesitation say the same about J. Krishnamurti, just with a poorer result.

 

14.
"The Emergent Reality will always be as it will be, and it will be wholesome and good. It most likely will never conform to our pre-conceptions and expectations. So if we are prudent we will work on keeping a truly Open Mind, Avoiding Pre-conceptions and leaving an Open Space for the Emergent Reality to occur with out our own distortions."

M. Sufilight answers:
I agree upon this. And that is why I do not fall for your favourable words about J. krishnamurti, which as far as I am aware is not based on true wisdom and knowledge about who J. Krishnamurti really was!
 

15.
"Krishnamurti, by refusing to accept any role as a "Spiritual Leader," Guru, or intermediary, and by denouncing the reliance on any organization was acting in congruence with his message, and by doing so proved his role as the expression of The World Teacher. His actions were completely consistent with his teaching."

M. Sufilight answers:
That can hardly be words, which are in accordance with the truth.
The fact is, that J. Krishnamurti allowed himself to be promoted as a World Teacher by Annie Besant in the years from 1909 to 1929 or so. Later he in fact told at least one person that he was the Avatar or World Teacher. This we have covered earlier at this forum with quotes etc. 


a) "Krishnamurti wrote in 1927:
"I know my destiny and my work. I know with certainty and knowledge of my own, that I am blending 
into the consciousness of the one Teacher and that He will completely fill me." 
Letter from Krishnamurti to Leadbeater February 9, 1927, quoted in Lutyens, Krishnamurti: The 
Years of Awakening, p. 241.

b) 
"I never said: I am the World Teacher; but now that I feel I am one with my Beloved, I say it."
Talk by Krishnamurti, August 2, 1927, quoted in Lutyens, p. 250. 

c)
Annie Besant declared in 1927:
"The Divine Spirit has descended once more on a man, Krishnamurti, one who in his life is 
literally perfect, as those who know him can testify... . The World Teacher is here.
"Annie Besant, "The Way of Sorrows and the Way of Happiness: The New Message" The Theosophist 
48/7 (April 1927), p. 6d. "

d)
"Leadbeater wrote in 1930:
"This is He who should come, and there is no need to look elsewhere; as I have said, I know that 
the World-Teacher often speaks through Krishnaji, but I also know that there are occasions when 
He does not."
C.W. Leadbeater, "Art Thou He That Should Come?" The Theosophist 51\9 (June 1930), p. 472."
 
e)
G. Hodson said:
"These phenomena occurred during some few successive years, the events being so
marked that Krishnamurti himself thereafter changed the Objects of the Order of the
Star in the East from, in effect, "To prepare for the coming of the Lord" to "To serve
the World Teacher now that He is in our midst." I, myself, more than once heard
Krishnamurti affirm that the great Teacher was now here and that the "Coming" had
actually occurred."

So are we to believe you, dear William or believe the other persons?
We know, that silence speaks.



16.
"Looking objectively, all I can say is WOW, This guy IS REAL."

M. Sufilight answers:
I hold that to be an emotional expression.

No, He is just an illusion. 
:-)

Wise men says:
Old fools do not learn so easily as the young ones.
Belief and true knowledge is not the same.

To me J. Krishnamurti was just a Seeker a bit above average walking the best he could the Path he called Pathless.
I believe he is pictured very well in Cyril Scott's books.

- - - - - - -

But more important. How do you learn how to learn?

M. Sufilight
(A member of the Lodge of Life since many ages past.)


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: t_s_theosophist 
  To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com 
  Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2008 5:50 AM
  Subject: Theos-World Understanding Krishnamurti




  UNDERSTANDING KRISHNAMURTI 

  The problem with understanding Krishnamurti is Not Krishnamurti, but the tendency of our minds to form pre-conceptions and expectations. 

  When C.W. Leadbeater discovered young Krishnaji and his brother on the beach at Adyar he unmistakebly knew that there was something very special about this child. 

  In consultation with Dr.Besant they are said to have received special information from the Masters of Wisdom about Krishnamurtis' future. 

  Krishnamurti was to be the vehicle of expression for the next appearance of The World Teacher. Although Great and Respected Leaders, Leadbeater and Besant were products of their time, and I think that we can forgive them if Krishnamurtis' role was slightly different from what they had expected. 

  Krishnamurti surprised many people who had "other" preconceived notions of "What" the World Teacher should be and do. 

  Krishnamurti did Not denounce Theosophy or distance himself from it. To the very last day he always considered Annie Besant as "Amma", a term of endearment meaning "mother." 

  What Krishnamurti Did do was to denounce the reliance on any oganization, or outside persona 
  no matter who that person was or claimed to be. He taught that you do not need organizations, you do not need Gurus, you do not need Priests or intermediaries. Look to Ishvar Guru, the Atman within, this is the Only Guru you need. 

  The complete essence of Krishnamurtis teaching is..... 

  "YOU ARE THE WORLD, LOOK IN THE MIRROR, LOOK WITHIN." 

  It is message of uncompromising Self-Reliance, Self-Responsibility and Self-Effort. 

  It is a hard message for an immature humanity that does not want to take Self-Responsibility for their actions and lives but craves for an outside "Savior." In past ages when the bulk of humanity was still immature we did need "Saviors." The evolution of consciousness has come to a point where external "Saviors" are no longer needed, they are now a hindrance. 

  It is now possible for many of us to take Self-Responsibility, Self-Reliance and Self-Effort for our own Spiritual growth and evolution to Perfection. 

  Yet, out of Compassion and Charity for the young souls still among us we are not to be iconoclastic and denounce all religion and ceremonies as useless trivia. Although we may have come to a point in our evolution where we do Not need religion and ceremonies ourselves, as we have seen that they are "crutches" we no longer really need, there Are many many young souls and immature beings who still Do need those crutches. There is absolutely Nothing wrong with using a crutch If we need one. The problem comes in when we make a fetish out of the crutch and don't see it for what it is, we make an idol out of the crutch. 
  Keeping an "Open Mind" is always a problem for us, as we have a tendency to form pre-conceptions that give us a false sense of comfort and security. When things work out as things work out, and they don't comform to our expctations...we are dis-illusioned and feel betrayed. In reality we should be happy that we have been "dis-illusioned" in confronting Reality. 

  That was the major problem with Krishnamurti, Not that he was Not the expression of The World Teacher, but that he did not conform to peoples pre-conceived expectations. 

  We can see this same dynamic at work in another occurance. H.P.B. wrote that in the last quarter of each century a major Spiritual impetus would occur. People started imagining what this "Spiritual" occurance would be and had many different expectations. Many were disappointed when they did not see anything 
  notable "Spiritual" occur at all. 

  The fact that the advent of a musical group, The Beatles, spearheaded a major change in world consciousness does not occur to them as a "major spiritual impetus." One need only to look at pre- and post- Beatle world consciousness to see the difference. 

  The Emergent Reality will always be as it will be, and it will be wholesome and good. It most likely will never conform to our pre-conceptions and expectations. So if we are prudent we will work on keeping a truly Open Mind, Avoiding Pre-conceptions and leaving an Open Space for the Emergent Reality to occur with out our own distortions. 

  Krishnamurti, by refusing to accept any role as a "Spiritual Leader," Guru, or intermediary, and by denouncing the reliance on any organization was acting in congruence with his message, and by doing so proved his role as the expression of The World Teacher. His actions were completely consistent with his teaching. 

  Looking objectively, all I can say is WOW, This guy IS REAL. 

  William Delahunt
  Orlando Florida, 
  Theosophist@webtv.net

  http://www.tso-orlando.org

  ====================== 



   

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