Theos-Talk Archives (July 2007 Message tt00376)

Cass: ... none of them have progressed as leading Theosophists"

Pablo: What are you saying that? Do you have their names? I'd like to 
know them.


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@...> wrote:
>
> Hello Pablo
>   Whatever HPB did she did it to herself.  She did not impose her 
will on others. Your anology doesn't work for me because you are 
dealing with an adult who wants to quit something.  Try the same 
analogy with chocolate or icecream.  The more you eat the more you 
want.
>    
>   Further you are suggesting that it was Leadbeater who discovered 
Krishnamurti as the new World Teacher.  And if that is the case he 
had no right to impose his will based on a clairvoyant auric reading.
>    
>   Isn't the whole point of having Chelas to progress them to 
discipleship?  Seeing they have dropped off the face of the earth and 
none of them have progressed as leading Theosophists one has to ask 
themselves again what was Leadbeater thinking?
>    
>   Organic necessity?   One would imagine that if Leadbeater was so 
highly advanced that he should have either transmuted this sexual 
energy or taught them to transmute it. Are you suggesting that a 10 
year old child reading Harry Potter would find himself with an 
organic necessity?  What exactly was Leadbeater reading to them?  The 
Kama Sutra, I imagine.
>    
>   Cass
> 
> Pablo Sender <pasender@...> wrote:
>           Hi Cass
> 
> Here's my answer:
> 
> > Cass: How did he know that they were "Chela" material. 
> 
> Pablo: He said he could see the state of their higher egos. Whether 
> you choose to believe it or not, it could be possible.
> 
> > Cass: According to records Krishnamurti's was chosen this way, 
> yet, as a thinking adult, he turned away from the TS. 
> 
> Pablo: Yes, but when everybody said Krishnaji was mentally 
retarded, 
> near to die, and physically quite ugly, Leadbeater recognized him 
> among other children as a much evolved being. He didn't choose 
Nitya, 
> his brother, who was far more intelligent. It doesn't matter what 
> happened after that, because the main point is that Krishnamurti 
was 
> certainly someone special. I absolutely think its discovery is a 
> strong support to CWL's clairvoyant abilities.
> 
> > Cass: My understanding is that Krishnamurti was at Adyar because 
> Annie Besant gave his father a job, so in that particular case, no 
> offering by parents took place.
> 
> Pablo: That's right, but, according to Krishnamurti himself, if 
> Leadbeater would not have discovered him, K. would be dead.
> 
> > Cass: Also, I find it unimaginable that a child would have the 
> mental capacity to undertake what is required of a chela. Whatever 
> became of these Chela's? 
> 
> Pablo: Well, the training was only preparatory. And I'm sure it'd 
be 
> very helpful for someone with the potentiality of a Chela, to have 
a 
> special training. Now, what happened to them? I don't even know 
their 
> names since I have not been especially interested in those things. 
> But I do think that a Chela doesn't have necessarily to have a 
> notorious public activity. There was a document in HPB's time 
signed 
> by several chelas (I don't remember which one, may be related to 
the 
> Coulomb case) whose names are quite unknown to the common student.
> 
> > Cass: Pablo how does doing something decrease the need to do it? 
> If anything
> it would increase the need.
> 
> Pablo: I don't agree. If you smoke, and you say I will smoke less 
and 
> less cigarettes progressively, you will eventually overcome the 
> habit. I've seen that method working in sexual matters before 
knowing 
> anything about Theosophy.
> 
> > Cass: Isn't it more psychologically healthy, if heterosexual, to 
> desire a woman rather than to self pleasure, after all what are 
these 
> teenage boys "thinking" about while performing the act? Not the 
> Stanzas of Dzyan . . . if we are going to look at it from the angle 
> of elementals, then the thought is generated, whether the woman is 
> present in person or is imagined. No?
> 
> Pablo: To begin with, if you treat it as any other organic 
necessity, 
> you can perform the act without any mental image. On the other 
hand, 
> you have to bear in mind that one thing is to perform that act in a 
> few minutes, relieving a natural organic necessity, and another 
very 
> different is being most of the day with those thoughts, as 
frequently 
> happens with teenagers. And every one of us indulges in self 
pleasure 
> when eating, going to watch a movie, etc. Why don't you eat plain 
> food? Why are you trying to get pleasure from it? There is not much 
> difference, psychologically, but the sexuality has a lot of 
> prejudice, still today.
> 
> Cass: Also if the sexual libido is so high then that particular 
> chela would have an unimaginable hard time overcoming his/her own 
> sexuality. 
> 
> Pablo: I know people in the TS that had a strong sexual impulse 
when 
> young and with an intelligent (spiritual) work (not repression), 
his 
> sexuality went to a secondary plane.
> 
> > Cass: Were there female chelas at Adyar?
> 
> Pablo: I really don't know, although I'm pretty sure that Clara 
Codd 
> was his pupil, for example.
> 
> > Cass: That is silly Pablo, all one needs to do is lift the 
> cloth, how else would they be able to urinate?
> 
> Pablo: What's wrong in having a bath naked, if it is more 
> comfortable? Why Krishnamurti, having refused so many things, don't 
> refuse this also a showered with a piece of cloth? I think we have 
to 
> be honest about it. HPB smoked, eat meat, had a harsh language, got 
> married twice without loving her husband, etc, etc, but she 
> was "ahead of her time", and we allow her everything. Now, in the 
> case of Leadbeater, we condemn him for not being respectful to 
social 
> prejudices, and we treat his supposedly training of would-be with 
> materialistic and cultural standards. I think that is a double 
> discourse.
> If we want to investigate this subject, we should do it with an 
> unbiased mind, are at least being conscious of it, because every 
fact 
> can be presented in very different ways according to our feelings. 
> 
> > Cass: As I said, after HPB I do not believe that the Masters 
> were in contact with anyone, so therefore I believe this to be a 
> forgery. The language and tone is so far removed from how KH or 
Morya 
> express themselves. Whoever wrote this is writing to justify an 
> action, this is not how the Masters think.
> 
> Pablo: You have the right to believe it. But, on what evidence do 
you 
> base your statement? As far as I know, nobody challenged the 
veracity 
> of those letters. It is the same as the letter of 1900 to AB. It 
was 
> clearly precipitated, and it showed, among other things, that as 
far 
> as the year 1900 the Masters were still interested in the Adyar TS, 
> Annie Besant, the Adyar Esoteric School, etc.
> 
> 
> 
>          
> 
>        
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