Theos-Talk Archives (July 2007 Message tt00363)

Hello Pablo
  Whatever HPB did she did it to herself.  She did not impose her will on others. Your anology doesn't work for me because you are dealing with an adult who wants to quit something.  Try the same analogy with chocolate or icecream.  The more you eat the more you want.
   
  Further you are suggesting that it was Leadbeater who discovered Krishnamurti as the new World Teacher.  And if that is the case he had no right to impose his will based on a clairvoyant auric reading.
   
  Isn't the whole point of having Chelas to progress them to discipleship?  Seeing they have dropped off the face of the earth and none of them have progressed as leading Theosophists one has to ask themselves again what was Leadbeater thinking?
   
  Organic necessity?   One would imagine that if Leadbeater was so highly advanced that he should have either transmuted this sexual energy or taught them to transmute it. Are you suggesting that a 10 year old child reading Harry Potter would find himself with an organic necessity?  What exactly was Leadbeater reading to them?  The Kama Sutra, I imagine.
   
  Cass

Pablo Sender <pasender@yahoo.com.ar> wrote:
          Hi Cass

Here's my answer:

> Cass: How did he know that they were "Chela" material. 

Pablo: He said he could see the state of their higher egos. Whether 
you choose to believe it or not, it could be possible.

> Cass: According to records Krishnamurti's was chosen this way, 
yet, as a thinking adult, he turned away from the TS. 

Pablo: Yes, but when everybody said Krishnaji was mentally retarded, 
near to die, and physically quite ugly, Leadbeater recognized him 
among other children as a much evolved being. He didn't choose Nitya, 
his brother, who was far more intelligent. It doesn't matter what 
happened after that, because the main point is that Krishnamurti was 
certainly someone special. I absolutely think its discovery is a 
strong support to CWL's clairvoyant abilities.

> Cass: My understanding is that Krishnamurti was at Adyar because 
Annie Besant gave his father a job, so in that particular case, no 
offering by parents took place.

Pablo: That's right, but, according to Krishnamurti himself, if 
Leadbeater would not have discovered him, K. would be dead.

> Cass: Also, I find it unimaginable that a child would have the 
mental capacity to undertake what is required of a chela. Whatever 
became of these Chela's? 

Pablo: Well, the training was only preparatory. And I'm sure it'd be 
very helpful for someone with the potentiality of a Chela, to have a 
special training. Now, what happened to them? I don't even know their 
names since I have not been especially interested in those things. 
But I do think that a Chela doesn't have necessarily to have a 
notorious public activity. There was a document in HPB's time signed 
by several chelas (I don't remember which one, may be related to the 
Coulomb case) whose names are quite unknown to the common student.

> Cass: Pablo how does doing something decrease the need to do it? 
If anything
it would increase the need.

Pablo: I don't agree. If you smoke, and you say I will smoke less and 
less cigarettes progressively, you will eventually overcome the 
habit. I've seen that method working in sexual matters before knowing 
anything about Theosophy.

> Cass: Isn't it more psychologically healthy, if heterosexual, to 
desire a woman rather than to self pleasure, after all what are these 
teenage boys "thinking" about while performing the act? Not the 
Stanzas of Dzyan . . . if we are going to look at it from the angle 
of elementals, then the thought is generated, whether the woman is 
present in person or is imagined. No?

Pablo: To begin with, if you treat it as any other organic necessity, 
you can perform the act without any mental image. On the other hand, 
you have to bear in mind that one thing is to perform that act in a 
few minutes, relieving a natural organic necessity, and another very 
different is being most of the day with those thoughts, as frequently 
happens with teenagers. And every one of us indulges in self pleasure 
when eating, going to watch a movie, etc. Why don't you eat plain 
food? Why are you trying to get pleasure from it? There is not much 
difference, psychologically, but the sexuality has a lot of 
prejudice, still today.

Cass: Also if the sexual libido is so high then that particular 
chela would have an unimaginable hard time overcoming his/her own 
sexuality. 

Pablo: I know people in the TS that had a strong sexual impulse when 
young and with an intelligent (spiritual) work (not repression), his 
sexuality went to a secondary plane.

> Cass: Were there female chelas at Adyar?

Pablo: I really don't know, although I'm pretty sure that Clara Codd 
was his pupil, for example.

> Cass: That is silly Pablo, all one needs to do is lift the 
cloth, how else would they be able to urinate?

Pablo: What's wrong in having a bath naked, if it is more 
comfortable? Why Krishnamurti, having refused so many things, don't 
refuse this also a showered with a piece of cloth? I think we have to 
be honest about it. HPB smoked, eat meat, had a harsh language, got 
married twice without loving her husband, etc, etc, but she 
was "ahead of her time", and we allow her everything. Now, in the 
case of Leadbeater, we condemn him for not being respectful to social 
prejudices, and we treat his supposedly training of would-be with 
materialistic and cultural standards. I think that is a double 
discourse.
If we want to investigate this subject, we should do it with an 
unbiased mind, are at least being conscious of it, because every fact 
can be presented in very different ways according to our feelings. 

> Cass: As I said, after HPB I do not believe that the Masters 
were in contact with anyone, so therefore I believe this to be a 
forgery. The language and tone is so far removed from how KH or Morya 
express themselves. Whoever wrote this is writing to justify an 
action, this is not how the Masters think.

Pablo: You have the right to believe it. But, on what evidence do you 
base your statement? As far as I know, nobody challenged the veracity 
of those letters. It is the same as the letter of 1900 to AB. It was 
clearly precipitated, and it showed, among other things, that as far 
as the year 1900 the Masters were still interested in the Adyar TS, 
Annie Besant, the Adyar Esoteric School, etc.



         

       
---------------------------------
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally,  mobile search that gives answers, not web links. 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]