Theos-Talk Archives (July 2007 Message tt00317)

Dear Cass
Greetings again

You write, "Can the mind come to terms with two conflicting 
viewpoints?"

Not easy! Although Mary Anderson, past international vice-president 
of the Adyar Society once said that until we develop an accommodation 
with ambiguity and paradox we will always be found wanting in our 
understanding of Theosophy. 
As you allude below, Madame Blavatsky wrote from a brilliant and 
extraordinary intellect and her teachings force any serious student 
to think deeply and widely to the very limit of thought and beyond.
At least part of this brilliance is as you say, that she shares with 
us without "telling us" that we must or "converting us" through dogma.

A truly extraordinary mind, message and delivery. Such a privilege 
to "be in her company."

Very kind regards
Nigel 

   The wily little mind can, it twists and turns until it finds a 
solution, e.g. Let's put it aside that Leadbeater was probably a 
Paedophile, but his contribution to the Society outweighs that little 
personal detail.  I for one have major problems with Paedophiles and 
anything that comes out of their mouths, so this was not a solution 
for me. 
>    
>   I guess my test was relatively simple.  Leadbeater for me 
was "too authoritarian in tone".  This was long before I knew he was 
sexually devious.  Besant for me was "too missionary"
>   I felt that Leadbeater was "Telling me", and Besant wanted 
to "Convert me".  HPB initially entertained me, because she called a 
spade a spade, and it was her honesty and I must admit, her 
intellectuality, that reverberated with me.  From there the studies 
began, and the more I read, and the more I saw her vision of creator 
and created, the more I was able to make sense of this thing we 
call "life"!  I am joyous to be able to sit at the feet of HPB.  I 
love the old coot.
>    
>   Warm regards
>   Cass
> 
> nhcareyta <nhcareyta@...> wrote:
>           Hello again Cass
> 
> Further to my last posting.
> 
> You write, "One cannot answer to two masters, and the TS cannot
> survive if it persists in honoring those that misconstrued or 
slanted 
> the
> message towards their own belief system."
> 
> Once again I relate to the truths in this comment. Additionally:
> We cannot legitimately and honourably support demonstrable lies as 
> truth. This is obviously hypocritical and contradictory in the 
> extreme.
> We also cannot support that which contradicts something as being 
> representative of it!
> 
> You write, "Regardless of what Ms Burnier does, Theosophy will 
> survive, HPB's message will survive, it will reach those that 
> are "ready" whether or not a Theosophical Society exists or not."
> 
> Mostly agree. The Divine Wisdom cannot be lost, but souls can be 
> diverted from it, or given a distorted version of it for reasons we 
> are discussing. Unfortunately the distorted version including its 
> associated mindset can influence skandhas far into the future.
> 
> You write, "Sadly, the TS is not a good place to start if the 
> teachings only lead to confusion and division, although I spent 
many 
> happy years learning about theosophy through some wonderful 
> theosophists who were more or less obliged to teach 
Leadbeater/Besant 
> when I am sure were not in agreement with their teachings and tried 
> to draw parallels which were not there."
> 
> Yes, you and I have been fortunate to have re-connected with Madame 
> Blavatsky and her teachers' mindset, for better or worse (!), in 
> spite of the contradictory versions which attempted to divert us. A 
> test perhaps :)
> 
> Very kind regards
> Nigel
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello again Nigel,
> > I can't get away from the fact that as you say, Radha Burnier has 
> an obligation and responsibility towards the infrastructure and the 
> stability of the theosophical society, because as a theosophical 
> student I believe that Radha's obligation and responsibility should 
> be towards the "truth". As HPB said, "there is no religion higher 
> than truth" which for me means that no organization is higher than 
> its truths.
> > 
> > Unfortunately HPB was not born at a time when she could roam the 
> countryside with her teachings, the then current situation dictated 
> that the only forum would be to form a society whereby the truths 
> could be filtered. I am sure the Masters and HPB knew this would be 
> doomed to failure because they knew that those that followed would 
be 
> challenged and tempted by their own ego, that they, were not fully 
in 
> control of their ego, but were perhaps the best around at the time. 
> There purpose was pure and simply to provide an alternative 
> explanation to our inherent divinity. One cannot answer to two 
> masters, and the TS cannot survive if it persists in honoring those 
> that misconstrued or slanted the message towards their own belief 
> system.
> > 
> > Regardless of what Ms Burnier does, Theosophy will survive, HPB's 
> message will survive, it will reach those that are "ready" whether 
or 
> not a Theosophical Society exists or not.
> > 
> > Sadly, the TS is not a good place to start if the teachings only 
> lead to confusion and division, although I spent many happy years 
> learning about theosophy through some wonderful theosophists who 
were 
> more or less obliged to teach Leadbeater/Besant when I am sure were 
> not in agreement with their teachings and tried to draw parallels 
> which were not there.
> > 
> > Thanks for listening, look forward to your comments.
> > 
> > Cass
> > 
> > nhcareyta <nhcareyta@> wrote:
> > Dear Cass 
> > Thank you for your kind feedback. It's good to be in dialogue 
with 
> > you again.
> > 
> > I think you make a very good analogy with Darwin, although behind 
> the 
> > scenes there would probably be considerable disquiet amongst and 
> > between the various academic disciplines until, through simple 
> weight 
> > of evidence alone, they arrive at the state of logic you so 
> > pertinently mentioned in a previous post! 
> > 
> > Yes, as you allude, as the democratically elected International 
> > President, Radha certainly has a number of responsibilities to 
> > consider, one of these presumably being a sense of duty to 
protect 
> > the organisation and its infrastructure. There is obvious merit 
in 
> > this position unless taken to the extreme. After all, the general 
> > corporate philosophy is that even a flawed organisation is better 
> > than none, particularly where the organisation promotes 
> selflessness 
> > and compassion. However, the Theosophical Society was not only 
> > established to promote these worthwhile qualities and from my 
> > perspective the circumstances surrounding Bishop Leadbeater 
fulfils 
> > the criteria of extreme. 
> > Here however the situation becomes more than a little tenuous as 
> > there are political considerations, of which you are probably 
> aware, 
> > that are not always immediately apparent to the casual observer. 
> > Bishop Leadbeater is often more than closely associated with Dr 
> Annie 
> > Besant, no more so than in India. Indian membership of the Adyar 
> > Society makes up more than 30% of the worldwide membership. There 
> are 
> > other countries where Bishop Leadbeater has a considerable 
> following, 
> > including Australia. A rigorous, wide-ranging debate as to the 
> merits 
> > or otherwise of Bishop Leadbeater will necessarily expose some 
very 
> > dirty but true facts which will certainly shock and dismay many 
> > members, with predictable psychological and practical 
consequences. 
> > Moreover, this will inevitably draw Dr Besant into the debate and 
> her 
> > reputation may also be significantly damaged due to her close 
> > relationship with Bishop Leadbeater, for some of the political 
> > decisions she made concerning him and for some of the 
> pronouncements 
> > she made, of which many members may be unaware. This might also 
> lead 
> > to similar consequences.
> > And herein lies an additional political consideration. Dr Besant 
is 
> > still revered by many throughout the upper echelons of the 
broader 
> > Indian community for her political and educational work. In my 
> > opinion, this reputation and her association with the 
Theosophical 
> > Society have been of great benefit, in one form or another, in 
> > retaining some of the land which forms part of the International 
> > headquarters, despite apparent attempts by government to resume 
it. 
> > This land houses, among other things, the large Olcott and 
> > Krishnamurti schools, which provide a valuable service, 
> particularly 
> > to very disadvantaged children.
> > 
> > Despite the potential risks involved, I think the Leadbeater 
issue 
> > needs to be addressed honestly, openly and courageously before 
the 
> > Adyar Society can regain its onetime reputation as an 
organisation 
> of 
> > fearless truth-seekers, so evidently and earnestly desired by 
> Madame 
> > Blavatsky and her teachers. 
> > 
> > Kind regards
> > Nigel
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Nigel,
> > > As always I very fair and balanced point of view. I found it 
> > interesting that Radha Burnier felt that thoughts generated by an 
> > analysis of Leadbeater's work would incite thoughts of hatred and 
> > division within the movement. It appears that the movement 
> outweighs 
> > the teachings for Ms Burnier. If one applied this method to other 
> > non-theosophical authors,eg Darwin - their findings would never 
> have 
> > been challenged. And I am sure that debate on Darwin does not 
leave 
> > us with feelings or thoughts of hatred towards him or his 
theories. 
> > > 
> > > Cheers
> > > Cass
> > > 
> > > nhcareyta <nhcareyta@> wrote:
> > > Dear Pablo
> > > Thank you for sharing in such a comprehensive and heartfelt 
> manner 
> > > your personal experience of the Adyar Society. Like you, I was 
> > deeply 
> > > involved and committed to the organisation on all levels and 
> worked 
> > > alongside some very hard working, selfless and sincere people. 
I 
> > also 
> > > experienced the opposite, such being human nature wherever we 
may 
> > be. 
> > > I particularly appreciated Dr Burnier (Radha) as a friend and 
> > > colleague and respected her for her work as International 
> > President, 
> > > a role with considerable difficulties not always understood by 
> the 
> > > membership or public at large. 
> > > 
> > > Thank you for considering my previous posting to be "mostly 
> right" 
> > > although I am less certain as to its "rightness", it being 
simply 
> > an 
> > > accurate portrayal of my current perspective.
> > > 
> > > You write, "I think there is a wrong idea about the Adyar TS, 
> when 
> > > people say we appreciate Leadbeater as being more learned than 
> HPB, 
> > > or things like that. I've never heard anything of that sort?" 
> > > 
> > > I can only respond by saying "I certainly have" and quite 
> > vehemently 
> > > and on numerous occasions both in Australia and India. On one 
> > > occasion in particular, many years ago whilst national 
lecturer, 
> I 
> > > was asked what my thoughts were of Bishop Leadbeater by a 
senior 
> > > member of the ES at the Manor. I replied in the somewhat 
> diplomatic 
> > > manner required of my position that he was a tireless and 
> committed 
> > > worker who made an extensive contribution, although I wasn't 
> > entirely 
> > > convinced by some of his teachings. The very aggressive reply 
> came 
> > > back, "Well I think he's the greatest occultist that ever 
lived." 
> > End 
> > > of discussion!
> > > In Adyar in 1996 the level of devotion to Bishop Leadbeater, Dr 
> > > Besant and Krishnamurti was palpable, far more so than towards 
> > Madame 
> > > Blavatsky. 
> > > 
> > > You write, "?and I can say we have a deep appreciation and 
> > reverence 
> > > for HPB."
> > > 
> > > With respect, that is a rather broad generalisation of the 
total 
> TS 
> > > membership. I have heard many condemnatory remarks made about 
> > Madame 
> > > Blavatsky by members from all parts of the world in terms of 
her 
> > > temperament and teachings. There have been articles published 
in 
> > > Adyar Society magazines strongly challenging Madame Blavatsky's 
> > > pronouncements. I have seen none challenging those of Bishop 
> > > Leadbeater or Dr Besant.
> > > 
> > > You write, "Being in Argentina I had a fairly bad conception 
> about 
> > > Leadbeater.
> > > But then, being in the Archives, I had access to information, 
> > > personal letters written by him, etc., and my previously bad 
idea 
> > > about him changed completely. Now I feel certain silent 
> admiration 
> > > for him as a person?"
> > > 
> > > Bishop Leadbeater was certainly not all bad although I can only 
> > hope 
> > > you continue to investigate his life history, his activities 
and 
> > his 
> > > pronouncements. If you haven't done so already, researching 
> through 
> > > the past few years of theostalk alone will provide helpful 
> > > information perhaps. If you have so done, then we will have to 
> > > respectfully disagree on this matter.
> > > 
> > > You write, "So I asked (Radha) shouldn't we write books showing 
> the 
> > > other side of the coin? And she told me she rather would not do 
> > > anything on that line because the main result of that is the 
> > > increasing of controversy and the contamination of the mental 
> > > atmosphere with thoughts of hatred, criticism, etc.)"
> > > 
> > > Having heard this response from her before, although in a 
> somewhat 
> > > different manner, I respectfully disagree. Notwithstanding the 
> > often 
> > > all too important political considerations, it is my current 
> > > perspective that the documented and demonstrable behaviour, 
> > untruths 
> > > and "mental atmosphere" of Bishop Leadbeater precludes him from 
a 
> > > position of honour and promotion in a theosophical 
organisation. 
> It 
> > > is my belief that if members were made aware of his complete 
> > history, 
> > > many would adopt a similar position.
> > > 
> > > You write, "Thus, my answer is that it is close to impossible 
to 
> > skip 
> > > controversies over personalities;"
> > > 
> > > My, and I know many others' concerns do not relate to 
> > personalities, 
> > > although this is where the debate is often steered by those who 
> do 
> > > not wish to confront the real issues. I am not ascribing this 
> > > tendency to you as you appear to me to be very sincere. 
> > Personalities 
> > > are largely unimportant. A person's character however is a 
> > different 
> > > matter. Honesty, integrity and simply telling the truth are 
> > qualities 
> > > of far greater significance from both an occult and mundane 
> > > perspective.
> > > 
> > > You write, "What I cannot justify is the systematic attack upon 
> the 
> > > Adyar TS, because it damages the whole movement, and is far 
below 
> > > every theosophical-occultist consideration (see for example 
what 
> > > Mahatma KH says about the elementals putting in activity by a 
> > person 
> > > who goes to denounce a neighbor, and other who spent that 
energy 
> in 
> > > something
> > > constructive)."
> > > 
> > > This is an admirable sentiment however from my perspective, it 
is 
> > > some in the Adyar TS hierarchy who have damaged and continue to 
> > > damage the entire movement by continuing to support and promote 
> > > thoroughly discredited and dishonourable teachers and 
teachings. 
> I 
> > > hasten to emphasise "some" because as mentioned, there are many 
> > good 
> > > people in the Adyar TS and there are even those who have chosen 
> to 
> > > remain members in the hope they might slowly effect change.
> > > In response to your paraphrasing of the Mahatma's ideal, I 
would 
> > > add, "Evil happens when good (people) do nothing."
> > > 
> > > When heavily involved in the Adyar TS in earlier years I was 
> mostly 
> > > blind to these issues. Through extensive research into the 
> > differing 
> > > historical accounts of the movement along with "outsiders'" 
> > > perspectives, I gradually became aware that there were other 
> > > legitimate stories, other than those perpetuated in the 
> cloistered 
> > > environment and energies of the Adyar Society. My eyes were 
> > gradually 
> > > opened to that which ultimately became unacceptable for me. My 
> > > initial ignorance was replaced by denial followed by attempted 
> > > justification and eventual acceptance of "reality", with much 
> pain 
> > > along the way. 
> > > It has been an interesting journey thus far.
> > > 
> > > My very best wishes to you in yours
> > > 
> > > Kind regards
> > > Nigel
> > > 
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Pablo Sender" <pasender@> 
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Dear Nigel
> > > > 
> > > > Yes, you are mostly right. But I think the problem we are 
> dealing 
> > > > with is human nature itself, and that makes the situation 
quite 
> > > > complex. . . Let me explain myself. 
> > > > I'm 32 and I've been in the TS (Adyar) since I was 20. From 
the 
> > > very 
> > > > beginning I was deeply interested in Theosophy and also 
> involved 
> > in 
> > > > the institutional work. I was member of the TS National 
Council 
> > in 
> > > > Argentina, I gave lectures and courses (in my country and 
> several 
> > > > others, including Spain), conducted a Summer School, and so 
on. 
> > > Then, 
> > > > I went to Adyar and I was working in the Archives for one and 
a 
> > > half 
> > > > year. I've gave several lectures there and, along with my 
wife, 
> a 
> > > > three-month course on the Secret Doctrine. I'm telling this 
> only 
> > to 
> > > > convey I've been involved both in the teachings and in the 
> > > > institutional work.
> > > > 
> > > > First let's clear the field. I think there is a wrong idea 
> about 
> > > the 
> > > > Adyar TS, when people say we appreciate Leadbeater as being 
> more 
> > > > learned than HPB, or things like that. I've never heard 
> anything 
> > of 
> > > > that sort, and I can say we have a deep appreciation and 
> > reverence 
> > > > for HPB. During all these years and experiences, I was never 
> > forced 
> > > > to study or accept anything from anyone. Being more in tune 
> with 
> > > > HPB's teachings, I did not read much of Leadbeater's. In my 
> > > lectures, 
> > > > courses, etc., I never made use of his teachings, and nobody 
> said 
> > > > anything, nor even noticed it. So, Leadbeater is just one of 
> the 
> > > many 
> > > > author we study. Even when in Adyar, I heard lectures about 
HPB 
> > and 
> > > > no one about Leadbeater (well, one, in fact, that was mine). 
It 
> > is 
> > > > not that the Adyar TS don't like Leadbeater, but his 
teachings 
> > are 
> > > > not its main subject.
> > > > 
> > > > Being in Argentina I had a fairly bad conception about 
> > Leadbeater. 
> > > > But then, being in the Archives, I had access to information, 
> > > > personal letters written by him, etc., and my previously bad 
> idea 
> > > > about him changed completely. Now I feel certain silent 
> > admiration 
> > > > for him as a person, although I'm not generally in tune with 
> his 
> > > > style of teaching. This change of mind was only due to my 
> > research. 
> > > > Nobody ever told me anything about him in my year and a half 
> > there. 
> > > > And I've read letters written by other people (for example 
> GdeP) 
> > > that 
> > > > left a very poor image of him. (Once I talked to Radha 
Burnier 
> > > about 
> > > > the bad idea I had on Besant and Leadbeater, etc., that was 
> > mainly 
> > > > due to a lack of information or, in fact, because the only 
> > > > information I had come across came from those who don't like 
> them 
> > > and 
> > > > write against them. So I asked shouldn't we write books 
showing 
> > the 
> > > > other side of the coin? And she told me she rather would not 
do 
> > > > anything on that line because the main result of that is the 
> > > > increasing of controversy and the contamination of the mental 
> > > > atmosphere with thoughts of hatred, criticism, etc.)
> > > > 
> > > > Then, my point is: many people outside the TS say "how can 
you 
> > > > believe in HPB with her speaking of those "invented" 
Mahatmas, 
> > she 
> > > > being a fraud, as demonstrated by..." etc., etc. Yet, for us, 
> HPB 
> > > was 
> > > > right. The same happens with Leadbeater, for example, or many 
> > other 
> > > > leaders all over the world. There are accusations that are 
very 
> > > > obvious to certain people, but wrong to other. You cannot 
help 
> > it. 
> > > It 
> > > > has been always like that, and today Simon Magus was a black 
> > > magician 
> > > > and Peter the mouthpiece of God to most of the people (just 
to 
> > > > mention one case).
> > > > So, if you think Besant was deluded, everything will sound 
> > > > outrageous. But if you think she was right, then many things 
> make 
> > > > sense. Here is an interesting exercise: read what happened to 
> HPB 
> > > and 
> > > > around her, but instead of being HPB, think it was Besant. 
Many 
> > > > things you now accept will sound very doubtful. I did that 
> > exercise 
> > > > with HPB Judge, Besant, etc. It'll reveal a lot.
> > > > Thus, my answer is that it is close to impossible to skip 
> > > > controversies over personalities; there will always be two 
> sides. 
> > > > Therefore, what is the most intelligent attitude? To me, it 
is 
> > that 
> > > > of tolerance. I know this attitude is challenging, it also 
has 
> > > > several weaknesses, and it requires a lot of discrimination 
by 
> > the 
> > > > members. You will meet some people reading things I don't 
> > consider 
> > > > theosophy at all. That's right. The attitude of saying "this 
> set 
> > of 
> > > > authors are theosophical" is easier, provides more 
> psychological 
> > > > security, etc. But I sincerely prefer the side-effects of 
> > tolerance 
> > > > to those of marking limits. And I've seen in some Lodges in 
my 
> > > > country. Where they are "orthodox", you have few people 
knowing 
> > > about 
> > > > HPB with certain understanding, and the rest of the members 
> only 
> > > > repeating as parrots. While in Lodges where there was an 
> exposal 
> > to 
> > > > different lines of thought (and the members were serious) 
there 
> > was 
> > > a 
> > > > much deeper understanding even of HPB's writings. I think the 
> > > second 
> > > > object of the TS has a deep significance, far beyond a mere 
> > > academic 
> > > > one. In fact, that was my case. The more I opened my horizon, 
> the 
> > > > more deeply could I understand HPB's teachings (remember HPB 
> said 
> > > an 
> > > > occultist should know, although not necessarily dominate, all 
> the 
> > > > philosophies).
> > > > 
> > > > I personally am very happy with the Adyar TS policy and I 
> > sincerely 
> > > > think is what the Founders wanted for the TS, although I 
> > understand 
> > > > some people may consider it differently of may need another 
> > > approach. 
> > > > What I cannot justify is the systematic attack upon the Adyar 
> TS, 
> > > > because it damages the whole movement, and is far below every 
> > > > theosophical-occultist consideration (see for example what 
> > Mahatma 
> > > KH 
> > > > says about the elementals putting in activity by a person who 
> > goes 
> > > to 
> > > > denounce a neighbor, and other who spent that energy in 
> something 
> > > > constructive).
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ---------------------------------
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> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ---------------------------------
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> 
> 
> 
>          
> 
>        
> ---------------------------------
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