Theos-Talk Archives (July 2007 Message tt00306)

Hello Nigel
  As you say, perhaps the diversion, is part of the discriminatory test!  Can the mind come to terms with two conflicting viewpoints?   The wily little mind can, it twists and turns until it finds a solution, e.g. Let's put it aside that Leadbeater was probably a Paedophile, but his contribution to the Society outweighs that little personal detail.  I for one have major problems with Paedophiles and anything that comes out of their mouths, so this was not a solution for me. 
   
  I guess my test was relatively simple.  Leadbeater for me was "too authoritarian in tone".  This was long before I knew he was sexually devious.  Besant for me was "too missionary"
  I felt that Leadbeater was "Telling me", and Besant wanted to "Convert me".  HPB initially entertained me, because she called a spade a spade, and it was her honesty and I must admit, her intellectuality, that reverberated with me.  From there the studies began, and the more I read, and the more I saw her vision of creator and created, the more I was able to make sense of this thing we call "life"!  I am joyous to be able to sit at the feet of HPB.  I love the old coot.
   
  Warm regards
  Cass

nhcareyta <nhcareyta@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
          Hello again Cass

Further to my last posting.

You write, "One cannot answer to two masters, and the TS cannot
survive if it persists in honoring those that misconstrued or slanted 
the
message towards their own belief system."

Once again I relate to the truths in this comment. Additionally:
We cannot legitimately and honourably support demonstrable lies as 
truth. This is obviously hypocritical and contradictory in the 
extreme.
We also cannot support that which contradicts something as being 
representative of it!

You write, "Regardless of what Ms Burnier does, Theosophy will 
survive, HPB's message will survive, it will reach those that 
are "ready" whether or not a Theosophical Society exists or not."

Mostly agree. The Divine Wisdom cannot be lost, but souls can be 
diverted from it, or given a distorted version of it for reasons we 
are discussing. Unfortunately the distorted version including its 
associated mindset can influence skandhas far into the future.

You write, "Sadly, the TS is not a good place to start if the 
teachings only lead to confusion and division, although I spent many 
happy years learning about theosophy through some wonderful 
theosophists who were more or less obliged to teach Leadbeater/Besant 
when I am sure were not in agreement with their teachings and tried 
to draw parallels which were not there."

Yes, you and I have been fortunate to have re-connected with Madame 
Blavatsky and her teachers' mindset, for better or worse (!), in 
spite of the contradictory versions which attempted to divert us. A 
test perhaps :)

Very kind regards
Nigel

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@...> wrote:
>
> Hello again Nigel,
> I can't get away from the fact that as you say, Radha Burnier has 
an obligation and responsibility towards the infrastructure and the 
stability of the theosophical society, because as a theosophical 
student I believe that Radha's obligation and responsibility should 
be towards the "truth". As HPB said, "there is no religion higher 
than truth" which for me means that no organization is higher than 
its truths.
> 
> Unfortunately HPB was not born at a time when she could roam the 
countryside with her teachings, the then current situation dictated 
that the only forum would be to form a society whereby the truths 
could be filtered. I am sure the Masters and HPB knew this would be 
doomed to failure because they knew that those that followed would be 
challenged and tempted by their own ego, that they, were not fully in 
control of their ego, but were perhaps the best around at the time. 
There purpose was pure and simply to provide an alternative 
explanation to our inherent divinity. One cannot answer to two 
masters, and the TS cannot survive if it persists in honoring those 
that misconstrued or slanted the message towards their own belief 
system.
> 
> Regardless of what Ms Burnier does, Theosophy will survive, HPB's 
message will survive, it will reach those that are "ready" whether or 
not a Theosophical Society exists or not.
> 
> Sadly, the TS is not a good place to start if the teachings only 
lead to confusion and division, although I spent many happy years 
learning about theosophy through some wonderful theosophists who were 
more or less obliged to teach Leadbeater/Besant when I am sure were 
not in agreement with their teachings and tried to draw parallels 
which were not there.
> 
> Thanks for listening, look forward to your comments.
> 
> Cass
> 
> nhcareyta <nhcareyta@...> wrote:
> Dear Cass 
> Thank you for your kind feedback. It's good to be in dialogue with 
> you again.
> 
> I think you make a very good analogy with Darwin, although behind 
the 
> scenes there would probably be considerable disquiet amongst and 
> between the various academic disciplines until, through simple 
weight 
> of evidence alone, they arrive at the state of logic you so 
> pertinently mentioned in a previous post! 
> 
> Yes, as you allude, as the democratically elected International 
> President, Radha certainly has a number of responsibilities to 
> consider, one of these presumably being a sense of duty to protect 
> the organisation and its infrastructure. There is obvious merit in 
> this position unless taken to the extreme. After all, the general 
> corporate philosophy is that even a flawed organisation is better 
> than none, particularly where the organisation promotes 
selflessness 
> and compassion. However, the Theosophical Society was not only 
> established to promote these worthwhile qualities and from my 
> perspective the circumstances surrounding Bishop Leadbeater fulfils 
> the criteria of extreme. 
> Here however the situation becomes more than a little tenuous as 
> there are political considerations, of which you are probably 
aware, 
> that are not always immediately apparent to the casual observer. 
> Bishop Leadbeater is often more than closely associated with Dr 
Annie 
> Besant, no more so than in India. Indian membership of the Adyar 
> Society makes up more than 30% of the worldwide membership. There 
are 
> other countries where Bishop Leadbeater has a considerable 
following, 
> including Australia. A rigorous, wide-ranging debate as to the 
merits 
> or otherwise of Bishop Leadbeater will necessarily expose some very 
> dirty but true facts which will certainly shock and dismay many 
> members, with predictable psychological and practical consequences. 
> Moreover, this will inevitably draw Dr Besant into the debate and 
her 
> reputation may also be significantly damaged due to her close 
> relationship with Bishop Leadbeater, for some of the political 
> decisions she made concerning him and for some of the 
pronouncements 
> she made, of which many members may be unaware. This might also 
lead 
> to similar consequences.
> And herein lies an additional political consideration. Dr Besant is 
> still revered by many throughout the upper echelons of the broader 
> Indian community for her political and educational work. In my 
> opinion, this reputation and her association with the Theosophical 
> Society have been of great benefit, in one form or another, in 
> retaining some of the land which forms part of the International 
> headquarters, despite apparent attempts by government to resume it. 
> This land houses, among other things, the large Olcott and 
> Krishnamurti schools, which provide a valuable service, 
particularly 
> to very disadvantaged children.
> 
> Despite the potential risks involved, I think the Leadbeater issue 
> needs to be addressed honestly, openly and courageously before the 
> Adyar Society can regain its onetime reputation as an organisation 
of 
> fearless truth-seekers, so evidently and earnestly desired by 
Madame 
> Blavatsky and her teachers. 
> 
> Kind regards
> Nigel
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Nigel,
> > As always I very fair and balanced point of view. I found it 
> interesting that Radha Burnier felt that thoughts generated by an 
> analysis of Leadbeater's work would incite thoughts of hatred and 
> division within the movement. It appears that the movement 
outweighs 
> the teachings for Ms Burnier. If one applied this method to other 
> non-theosophical authors,eg Darwin - their findings would never 
have 
> been challenged. And I am sure that debate on Darwin does not leave 
> us with feelings or thoughts of hatred towards him or his theories. 
> > 
> > Cheers
> > Cass
> > 
> > nhcareyta <nhcareyta@> wrote:
> > Dear Pablo
> > Thank you for sharing in such a comprehensive and heartfelt 
manner 
> > your personal experience of the Adyar Society. Like you, I was 
> deeply 
> > involved and committed to the organisation on all levels and 
worked 
> > alongside some very hard working, selfless and sincere people. I 
> also 
> > experienced the opposite, such being human nature wherever we may 
> be. 
> > I particularly appreciated Dr Burnier (Radha) as a friend and 
> > colleague and respected her for her work as International 
> President, 
> > a role with considerable difficulties not always understood by 
the 
> > membership or public at large. 
> > 
> > Thank you for considering my previous posting to be "mostly 
right" 
> > although I am less certain as to its "rightness", it being simply 
> an 
> > accurate portrayal of my current perspective.
> > 
> > You write, "I think there is a wrong idea about the Adyar TS, 
when 
> > people say we appreciate Leadbeater as being more learned than 
HPB, 
> > or things like that. I've never heard anything of that sort?" 
> > 
> > I can only respond by saying "I certainly have" and quite 
> vehemently 
> > and on numerous occasions both in Australia and India. On one 
> > occasion in particular, many years ago whilst national lecturer, 
I 
> > was asked what my thoughts were of Bishop Leadbeater by a senior 
> > member of the ES at the Manor. I replied in the somewhat 
diplomatic 
> > manner required of my position that he was a tireless and 
committed 
> > worker who made an extensive contribution, although I wasn't 
> entirely 
> > convinced by some of his teachings. The very aggressive reply 
came 
> > back, "Well I think he's the greatest occultist that ever lived." 
> End 
> > of discussion!
> > In Adyar in 1996 the level of devotion to Bishop Leadbeater, Dr 
> > Besant and Krishnamurti was palpable, far more so than towards 
> Madame 
> > Blavatsky. 
> > 
> > You write, "?and I can say we have a deep appreciation and 
> reverence 
> > for HPB."
> > 
> > With respect, that is a rather broad generalisation of the total 
TS 
> > membership. I have heard many condemnatory remarks made about 
> Madame 
> > Blavatsky by members from all parts of the world in terms of her 
> > temperament and teachings. There have been articles published in 
> > Adyar Society magazines strongly challenging Madame Blavatsky's 
> > pronouncements. I have seen none challenging those of Bishop 
> > Leadbeater or Dr Besant.
> > 
> > You write, "Being in Argentina I had a fairly bad conception 
about 
> > Leadbeater.
> > But then, being in the Archives, I had access to information, 
> > personal letters written by him, etc., and my previously bad idea 
> > about him changed completely. Now I feel certain silent 
admiration 
> > for him as a person?"
> > 
> > Bishop Leadbeater was certainly not all bad although I can only 
> hope 
> > you continue to investigate his life history, his activities and 
> his 
> > pronouncements. If you haven't done so already, researching 
through 
> > the past few years of theostalk alone will provide helpful 
> > information perhaps. If you have so done, then we will have to 
> > respectfully disagree on this matter.
> > 
> > You write, "So I asked (Radha) shouldn't we write books showing 
the 
> > other side of the coin? And she told me she rather would not do 
> > anything on that line because the main result of that is the 
> > increasing of controversy and the contamination of the mental 
> > atmosphere with thoughts of hatred, criticism, etc.)"
> > 
> > Having heard this response from her before, although in a 
somewhat 
> > different manner, I respectfully disagree. Notwithstanding the 
> often 
> > all too important political considerations, it is my current 
> > perspective that the documented and demonstrable behaviour, 
> untruths 
> > and "mental atmosphere" of Bishop Leadbeater precludes him from a 
> > position of honour and promotion in a theosophical organisation. 
It 
> > is my belief that if members were made aware of his complete 
> history, 
> > many would adopt a similar position.
> > 
> > You write, "Thus, my answer is that it is close to impossible to 
> skip 
> > controversies over personalities;"
> > 
> > My, and I know many others' concerns do not relate to 
> personalities, 
> > although this is where the debate is often steered by those who 
do 
> > not wish to confront the real issues. I am not ascribing this 
> > tendency to you as you appear to me to be very sincere. 
> Personalities 
> > are largely unimportant. A person's character however is a 
> different 
> > matter. Honesty, integrity and simply telling the truth are 
> qualities 
> > of far greater significance from both an occult and mundane 
> > perspective.
> > 
> > You write, "What I cannot justify is the systematic attack upon 
the 
> > Adyar TS, because it damages the whole movement, and is far below 
> > every theosophical-occultist consideration (see for example what 
> > Mahatma KH says about the elementals putting in activity by a 
> person 
> > who goes to denounce a neighbor, and other who spent that energy 
in 
> > something
> > constructive)."
> > 
> > This is an admirable sentiment however from my perspective, it is 
> > some in the Adyar TS hierarchy who have damaged and continue to 
> > damage the entire movement by continuing to support and promote 
> > thoroughly discredited and dishonourable teachers and teachings. 
I 
> > hasten to emphasise "some" because as mentioned, there are many 
> good 
> > people in the Adyar TS and there are even those who have chosen 
to 
> > remain members in the hope they might slowly effect change.
> > In response to your paraphrasing of the Mahatma's ideal, I would 
> > add, "Evil happens when good (people) do nothing."
> > 
> > When heavily involved in the Adyar TS in earlier years I was 
mostly 
> > blind to these issues. Through extensive research into the 
> differing 
> > historical accounts of the movement along with "outsiders'" 
> > perspectives, I gradually became aware that there were other 
> > legitimate stories, other than those perpetuated in the 
cloistered 
> > environment and energies of the Adyar Society. My eyes were 
> gradually 
> > opened to that which ultimately became unacceptable for me. My 
> > initial ignorance was replaced by denial followed by attempted 
> > justification and eventual acceptance of "reality", with much 
pain 
> > along the way. 
> > It has been an interesting journey thus far.
> > 
> > My very best wishes to you in yours
> > 
> > Kind regards
> > Nigel
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Pablo Sender" <pasender@> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Nigel
> > > 
> > > Yes, you are mostly right. But I think the problem we are 
dealing 
> > > with is human nature itself, and that makes the situation quite 
> > > complex. . . Let me explain myself. 
> > > I'm 32 and I've been in the TS (Adyar) since I was 20. From the 
> > very 
> > > beginning I was deeply interested in Theosophy and also 
involved 
> in 
> > > the institutional work. I was member of the TS National Council 
> in 
> > > Argentina, I gave lectures and courses (in my country and 
several 
> > > others, including Spain), conducted a Summer School, and so on. 
> > Then, 
> > > I went to Adyar and I was working in the Archives for one and a 
> > half 
> > > year. I've gave several lectures there and, along with my wife, 
a 
> > > three-month course on the Secret Doctrine. I'm telling this 
only 
> to 
> > > convey I've been involved both in the teachings and in the 
> > > institutional work.
> > > 
> > > First let's clear the field. I think there is a wrong idea 
about 
> > the 
> > > Adyar TS, when people say we appreciate Leadbeater as being 
more 
> > > learned than HPB, or things like that. I've never heard 
anything 
> of 
> > > that sort, and I can say we have a deep appreciation and 
> reverence 
> > > for HPB. During all these years and experiences, I was never 
> forced 
> > > to study or accept anything from anyone. Being more in tune 
with 
> > > HPB's teachings, I did not read much of Leadbeater's. In my 
> > lectures, 
> > > courses, etc., I never made use of his teachings, and nobody 
said 
> > > anything, nor even noticed it. So, Leadbeater is just one of 
the 
> > many 
> > > author we study. Even when in Adyar, I heard lectures about HPB 
> and 
> > > no one about Leadbeater (well, one, in fact, that was mine). It 
> is 
> > > not that the Adyar TS don't like Leadbeater, but his teachings 
> are 
> > > not its main subject.
> > > 
> > > Being in Argentina I had a fairly bad conception about 
> Leadbeater. 
> > > But then, being in the Archives, I had access to information, 
> > > personal letters written by him, etc., and my previously bad 
idea 
> > > about him changed completely. Now I feel certain silent 
> admiration 
> > > for him as a person, although I'm not generally in tune with 
his 
> > > style of teaching. This change of mind was only due to my 
> research. 
> > > Nobody ever told me anything about him in my year and a half 
> there. 
> > > And I've read letters written by other people (for example 
GdeP) 
> > that 
> > > left a very poor image of him. (Once I talked to Radha Burnier 
> > about 
> > > the bad idea I had on Besant and Leadbeater, etc., that was 
> mainly 
> > > due to a lack of information or, in fact, because the only 
> > > information I had come across came from those who don't like 
them 
> > and 
> > > write against them. So I asked shouldn't we write books showing 
> the 
> > > other side of the coin? And she told me she rather would not do 
> > > anything on that line because the main result of that is the 
> > > increasing of controversy and the contamination of the mental 
> > > atmosphere with thoughts of hatred, criticism, etc.)
> > > 
> > > Then, my point is: many people outside the TS say "how can you 
> > > believe in HPB with her speaking of those "invented" Mahatmas, 
> she 
> > > being a fraud, as demonstrated by..." etc., etc. Yet, for us, 
HPB 
> > was 
> > > right. The same happens with Leadbeater, for example, or many 
> other 
> > > leaders all over the world. There are accusations that are very 
> > > obvious to certain people, but wrong to other. You cannot help 
> it. 
> > It 
> > > has been always like that, and today Simon Magus was a black 
> > magician 
> > > and Peter the mouthpiece of God to most of the people (just to 
> > > mention one case).
> > > So, if you think Besant was deluded, everything will sound 
> > > outrageous. But if you think she was right, then many things 
make 
> > > sense. Here is an interesting exercise: read what happened to 
HPB 
> > and 
> > > around her, but instead of being HPB, think it was Besant. Many 
> > > things you now accept will sound very doubtful. I did that 
> exercise 
> > > with HPB Judge, Besant, etc. It'll reveal a lot.
> > > Thus, my answer is that it is close to impossible to skip 
> > > controversies over personalities; there will always be two 
sides. 
> > > Therefore, what is the most intelligent attitude? To me, it is 
> that 
> > > of tolerance. I know this attitude is challenging, it also has 
> > > several weaknesses, and it requires a lot of discrimination by 
> the 
> > > members. You will meet some people reading things I don't 
> consider 
> > > theosophy at all. That's right. The attitude of saying "this 
set 
> of 
> > > authors are theosophical" is easier, provides more 
psychological 
> > > security, etc. But I sincerely prefer the side-effects of 
> tolerance 
> > > to those of marking limits. And I've seen in some Lodges in my 
> > > country. Where they are "orthodox", you have few people knowing 
> > about 
> > > HPB with certain understanding, and the rest of the members 
only 
> > > repeating as parrots. While in Lodges where there was an 
exposal 
> to 
> > > different lines of thought (and the members were serious) there 
> was 
> > a 
> > > much deeper understanding even of HPB's writings. I think the 
> > second 
> > > object of the TS has a deep significance, far beyond a mere 
> > academic 
> > > one. In fact, that was my case. The more I opened my horizon, 
the 
> > > more deeply could I understand HPB's teachings (remember HPB 
said 
> > an 
> > > occultist should know, although not necessarily dominate, all 
the 
> > > philosophies).
> > > 
> > > I personally am very happy with the Adyar TS policy and I 
> sincerely 
> > > think is what the Founders wanted for the TS, although I 
> understand 
> > > some people may consider it differently of may need another 
> > approach. 
> > > What I cannot justify is the systematic attack upon the Adyar 
TS, 
> > > because it damages the whole movement, and is far below every 
> > > theosophical-occultist consideration (see for example what 
> Mahatma 
> > KH 
> > > says about the elementals putting in activity by a person who 
> goes 
> > to 
> > > denounce a neighbor, and other who spent that energy in 
something 
> > > constructive).
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ---------------------------------
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> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
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