Theos-Talk Archives (March 2007 Message tt00228)

Dear Cass
Yes, well might we all wish! 
It's also one thing to understand it intellectually, but isn't it 
often a whole different story putting it into practice.
As you are doing, at least we can adopt the Mahatma's suggestion 
to "try."

A big relief for me in this pathwork came when I realised that total 
control of the lower ego was likely to be some way off!! 
Interestingly, realising the enormity of the journey reduced the 
pressure of urgency, the unhealthy attachment to desire for success 
and achievement and the inevitable recriminations when slips occurred.
Certainly we might feel the need to be aware and awake as often as is 
possible but attachment to the aforementioned can create greater 
difficulties still and which are after all, as you say, part of the 
sentient experience.

>From words usually attributed to Madame Blavatsky in Lucifer:
"There is a road, steep and thorny, and beset with perils of every 
kind, but yet a road, and it leads to the heart of the Universe. I 
can tell you how to find Those who will show you the secret gateway 
that leads inward only, and closes fast behind the neophyte for 
evermore. There is no danger that dauntless courage cannot conquer; 
there is no trial that spotless purity cannot pass through; there is 
no difficulty that strong intellect cannot surmount. For those who 
win onward, there is reward past all telling: the power to bless and 
serve humanity. For those who fail, there are other lives in which 
success may come."

The last sentence brings it all into perspective for me. I've seen 
too many ill effects on too many people, who have driven themselves 
relentlessly towards their perceived spiritual goal without realising 
the number and strength of ego attachments and resistances they are 
acquiring and presenting along the way.

The Buddha spoke of the middle way. Perhaps that is the healthiest 
and, in the end, the "fastest"?

Kind regards
Nigel









--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Nigel
>   Absolutely agree with you.  It was Krishnamurti, not me, who made 
this comment in The First and Last Freedom.  I only wish that this 
type of intelligence sprang from my grey matter!  But I do try and 
apply it to my every day existence, and not get perturbed over what I 
now consider minor disturbances that are a part of the sentient 
experience.
>    
>   Cheers
>   Cass
> 
> nhcareyta <nhcareyta@...> wrote:
>           Dear Cass
> If I may make a comment.
> 
> You write, "...WE DO NOT SEE THE IMPORTANCE OF BEING DISTURBED, OF 
> BEING INWARDLY INSECURE, OF NOT BEING DEPENDANT". 
> And, "Disturbance is essential for understanding and any attempt to 
> find security is a hindrance to understanding."
> 
> From my experience, this is just so axiomatic in spiritual 
pathwork. 
> Too often as adults we remain within our conditioned parent/child 
> mindset. The vulnerable child state which lacks confidence, feels 
> insecure and feels the need to be rescued and saved, hence the 
> saviour myth, and the overly confident, all-knowing parental 
mindset 
> which thinks it knows and rests "secure" in its knowledge, hence 
the 
> role of priest/guru.
> Each of these mindsets appear to emanate from a primal need for 
> physical, psychological and emotional security and will accept 
almost 
> anything to placate what they perceive as the insecurity demon. And 
I 
> would suggest it is perhaps from these motivations that the desire 
> for security can be such a hindrance?
> 
> Kind regards
> Nigel
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Perry
> > I note that Krishnamurti also said that "First, one must be 
> disturbed, and it is obvious that most os us do not like to be 
> disturbed. We think we have found a pattern of life - the Master, 
> the belief, whatever it is - and there we settle down. It is like 
> having a good bureaucratic job and functioning there for the rest 
of 
> one's life. With that same mentality we approach various qualities 
> of which we want to be rid. WE DO NOT SEE THE IMPORTANCE OF BEING 
> DISTURBED, OF BEING INWARDLY INSECURE, OF NOT BEING DEPENDANT. 
> Surely it is only in insecurity that you discover, that you see, 
that 
> you understand. We want to be like a man with plenty of money, at 
> ease; he will not be disturbed; he doesn't want to be disturbed. 
> Disturbance is essential for understanding and any attempt to find 
> security is a hindrance to understanding."
> > 
> > Cass
> > 
> > plcoles1 <plcoles1@> wrote:
> > Hi Anton,
> > You wrote :
> > "I believe that the Theosophical Society was founded with the 
> purpose
> > to spread the knowledge of Theosophy in the world and that the
> > Objects of the Society are the necessary means to accomplish that
> > purpose. In other words, that the "inner" work of the lodge
> > (individual study, lodge meetings and so on) is the preparation 
for
> > its "outer" work, for the interaction with the community."
> > 
> > I agree and I think that really most of the structures are there 
> > within the society to help fulfill those goals.
> > For example the Theosophical Order of Service (TOS) in an avenue 
> with 
> > which people can help promote active altruism, or they can join 
> > institutions already established exclusively along those lines.
> > 
> > Amnesty International is one I was involved with for a short 
period.
> > 
> > As each person will have a different approach to theosophy 
everyone 
> > will resonate more strongly in one area than another.
> > Some are more predisposed to meditation for example; some are 
more 
> > intellectual in their approach, some more artistic ?.
> > 
> > What I personally would like to see developed in the TS is more 
> > scholarly freedom within the publications for all the reasons I 
> have 
> > discussed here at theos talk.
> > 
> > Perhaps a journal that allows more penetrating examination of 
> > different theosophical ideas much along the lines of Lucifer.
> > 
> > This is not everyone's cup of tea I realize however there is a 
> > definite need for it in my opinion.
> > 
> > People should not feel that they are `heretics' because they hold 
> to 
> > certain views either about past teachers (be that HPB, CWL or 
> > whomever), the teachings, historical issues or because of a 
> personal 
> > opinion of what they may feel is wrong with the society as it is, 
> > this surely is something no member should feel threatened by in a 
> > theosophical society.
> > 
> > You wrote :
> > "Nicholas Roerich said something like this: With the creative 
> process
> > there comes the quality of tolerance we need so much. If we 
include
> > the tolerance only conventionally and superficially we create
> > hypocrisy. Only with the noble creative process, with constant
> > realization, comes that wonderful guest: the tolerance."
> > 
> > Great quotation and very apt.
> > 
> > Best Wishes
> > 
> > Perry
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Anton Rozman" <anton_rozman@> 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Perry,
> > > 
> > > Thank you for your thoughts. Let me address the problem you 
> defined 
> > > as the conflict between expansiveness and traditionalism from 
> > another 
> > > perspective.
> > > 
> > > I believe that the Theosophical Society was founded with the 
> > purpose 
> > > to spread the knowledge of Theosophy in the world and that the 
> > > Objects of the Society are the necessary means to accomplish 
that 
> > > purpose. In other words, that the "inner" work of the lodge 
> > > (individual study, lodge meetings and so on) is the preparation 
> for 
> > > its "outer" work, for the interaction with the community. If 
the 
> > > lodge limits itself to the "inner" work then the mentioned 
> problems 
> > > becomes immanent. If instead it opens itself to the community 
it 
> > > necessarily involves itself in some creative process which 
> absorbs 
> > > and directs all the energies towards the ends which transcends 
> > > personal interests of its members.
> > > 
> > > Nicholas Roerich said something like this: With the creative 
> > process 
> > > there comes the quality of tolerance we need so much. If we 
> include 
> > > the tolerance only conventionally and superficially we create 
> > > hypocrisy. Only with the noble creative process, with constant 
> > > realization, comes that wonderful guest: the tolerance.
> > > 
> > > Warmest regards,
> > > Anton
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "plcoles1" <plcoles1@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Thanks Anton, I know that the ES is a point of contention for 
> > some 
> > > > within the TS.
> > > > 
> > > > I personally have not felt that the problems in the TS come 
> > > > specifically from the ES.
> > > > However there is I am sure much I don't know about it.
> > > > 
> > > > I'll try and briefly explain where I feel some of the 
conflicts 
> > > come 
> > > > from, leaving aside the Leadbeater issue.
> > > > 
> > > > One of the problems I think that continues to play itself is 
> that 
> > > > when some new people join the society they feel it is a kind 
of 
> > > > platform for anything and everything.
> > > > 
> > > > When the TS doesn't live up to their expectations of what 
they 
> > > think 
> > > > it should be they can cause quite a bit of turbulence within 
> the 
> > > > branch especially if they have joined with a preexisting 
> agenda, 
> > > like 
> > > > promoting some particular hobbyhorse they may be on at the 
time.
> > > > 
> > > > Then you get those who have been involved with the society 
for 
> > some 
> > > > years, read a lot of the traditional literature of the 
> > > society?.they 
> > > > may appear to newcomers as being stuck in the past or not 
> > > > progressive. 
> > > > 
> > > > On the one side there maybe what seems to be a force of 
> > > expansiveness 
> > > > and on the other traditionalism.
> > > > 
> > > > Expansiveness and traditionalism have this constant grappling 
> > with 
> > > > each other.
> > > > 
> > > > I would suggest both have a place, however both need to use 
> > wisdom, 
> > > > otherwise what you get is either lack of direction and 
purpose 
> on 
> > > the 
> > > > one hand or stagnation and mindless rigidity on the other.
> > > > 
> > > > Sometimes we need to drop some aspects that may no longer be 
> > > > appropriate.
> > > > 
> > > > For example in our branch the speaker used to stand on a 
stage 
> > > > towering above the audience and the president used to sit in 
a 
> > big 
> > > > chair on the stage like a king on a throne.
> > > > 
> > > > This thankfully was changed so that the president sat with 
> > everyone 
> > > > else and the speaker stood on the level with rest of the 
> audience.
> > > > 
> > > > This was a break from the old hierarchical mindset of 
> superiority 
> > > and 
> > > > a movement towards equality and brotherhood at least in 
> symbolic 
> > > > terms as to how the lodge was setup.
> > > > 
> > > > Also the invocation was changed to a more gender sensitive 
and 
> > > > inclusive form, once again a symbol of inclusiveness and 
> equality.
> > > > 
> > > > The other side of the coin is when people want to overturn 
> > > everything 
> > > > simply because its old.
> > > > 
> > > > When we are at a theosophical society set up to study the 
> ANCIENT 
> > > > Wisdom this could be problematic however.
> > > > 
> > > > Theosophy does speak of a spiritual path although I know 
> > > Krishnamurti 
> > > > spoke very eloquently about moving beyond rigid and 
> superstitious 
> > > > ideas about it.
> > > > Just a few thoughts 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Cheers
> > > > 
> > > > Perry
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
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> 
>          
> 
>  
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