Theos-Talk Archives (March 2007 Message tt00227)

plcoles1 <plcoles1@yahoo.com.au> wrote:          Dear Cass and Nigel,
Thanks for your both your comments.

Genuine transformation I think will always involve some form of 
letting go and that means a disturbance in what we may have grown 
used to.
  Cass: Agreed

It may mean that certain ideas we once held to as being true are 
actually holding us back from progressing further or may even be 
harmful in some way.
  Cass: Agreed

I have always found it interesting that one of the great spiritual 
classics the Bhagavad Gita is set on a battle field and that the hero 
Arjuna has to fight courageously, even against those near and dear to 
him.
  Cass: "Self Knowledge is the beginning of wisdom, and therefore the beginning of transformation or regeneration"  JK

The quality of courage, firmly focused and penetrating awareness are 
depicted as important in the in the fight against ignorance.

The allegory of Kurukshetra is a strong one and implies that we will 
have to face all sorts of obstacles and develop a courageous and 
focused attitude if we are to attain Self Realization and see through 
our own ignorance and long held attachments.

Lots of bumps ahead I'd say.
  Cass: Bring em on!
  Cheers
  Cass

Best Wishes

Perry

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Perry
> I note that Krishnamurti also said that "First, one must be 
disturbed, and it is obvious that most os us do not like to be 
disturbed. We think we have found a pattern of life - the Master, 
the belief, whatever it is - and there we settle down. It is like 
having a good bureaucratic job and functioning there for the rest of 
one's life. With that same mentality we approach various qualities 
of which we want to be rid. WE DO NOT SEE THE IMPORTANCE OF BEING 
DISTURBED, OF BEING INWARDLY INSECURE, OF NOT BEING DEPENDANT. 
Surely it is only in insecurity that you discover, that you see, that 
you understand. We want to be like a man with plenty of money, at 
ease; he will not be disturbed; he doesn't want to be disturbed. 
Disturbance is essential for understanding and any attempt to find 
security is a hindrance to understanding."
> 
> Cass
> 
> plcoles1 <plcoles1@...> wrote:
> Hi Anton,
> You wrote :
> "I believe that the Theosophical Society was founded with the 
purpose
> to spread the knowledge of Theosophy in the world and that the
> Objects of the Society are the necessary means to accomplish that
> purpose. In other words, that the "inner" work of the lodge
> (individual study, lodge meetings and so on) is the preparation for
> its "outer" work, for the interaction with the community."
> 
> I agree and I think that really most of the structures are there 
> within the society to help fulfill those goals.
> For example the Theosophical Order of Service (TOS) in an avenue 
with 
> which people can help promote active altruism, or they can join 
> institutions already established exclusively along those lines.
> 
> Amnesty International is one I was involved with for a short period.
> 
> As each person will have a different approach to theosophy everyone 
> will resonate more strongly in one area than another.
> Some are more predisposed to meditation for example; some are more 
> intellectual in their approach, some more artistic ?.
> 
> What I personally would like to see developed in the TS is more 
> scholarly freedom within the publications for all the reasons I 
have 
> discussed here at theos talk.
> 
> Perhaps a journal that allows more penetrating examination of 
> different theosophical ideas much along the lines of Lucifer.
> 
> This is not everyone's cup of tea I realize however there is a 
> definite need for it in my opinion.
> 
> People should not feel that they are `heretics' because they hold 
to 
> certain views either about past teachers (be that HPB, CWL or 
> whomever), the teachings, historical issues or because of a 
personal 
> opinion of what they may feel is wrong with the society as it is, 
> this surely is something no member should feel threatened by in a 
> theosophical society.
> 
> You wrote :
> "Nicholas Roerich said something like this: With the creative 
process
> there comes the quality of tolerance we need so much. If we include
> the tolerance only conventionally and superficially we create
> hypocrisy. Only with the noble creative process, with constant
> realization, comes that wonderful guest: the tolerance."
> 
> Great quotation and very apt.
> 
> Best Wishes
> 
> Perry
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "Anton Rozman" <anton_rozman@> 
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Perry,
> > 
> > Thank you for your thoughts. Let me address the problem you 
defined 
> > as the conflict between expansiveness and traditionalism from 
> another 
> > perspective.
> > 
> > I believe that the Theosophical Society was founded with the 
> purpose 
> > to spread the knowledge of Theosophy in the world and that the 
> > Objects of the Society are the necessary means to accomplish that 
> > purpose. In other words, that the "inner" work of the lodge 
> > (individual study, lodge meetings and so on) is the preparation 
for 
> > its "outer" work, for the interaction with the community. If the 
> > lodge limits itself to the "inner" work then the mentioned 
problems 
> > becomes immanent. If instead it opens itself to the community it 
> > necessarily involves itself in some creative process which 
absorbs 
> > and directs all the energies towards the ends which transcends 
> > personal interests of its members.
> > 
> > Nicholas Roerich said something like this: With the creative 
> process 
> > there comes the quality of tolerance we need so much. If we 
include 
> > the tolerance only conventionally and superficially we create 
> > hypocrisy. Only with the noble creative process, with constant 
> > realization, comes that wonderful guest: the tolerance.
> > 
> > Warmest regards,
> > Anton
> > 
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "plcoles1" <plcoles1@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks Anton, I know that the ES is a point of contention for 
> some 
> > > within the TS.
> > > 
> > > I personally have not felt that the problems in the TS come 
> > > specifically from the ES.
> > > However there is I am sure much I don't know about it.
> > > 
> > > I'll try and briefly explain where I feel some of the conflicts 
> > come 
> > > from, leaving aside the Leadbeater issue.
> > > 
> > > One of the problems I think that continues to play itself is 
that 
> > > when some new people join the society they feel it is a kind of 
> > > platform for anything and everything.
> > > 
> > > When the TS doesn't live up to their expectations of what they 
> > think 
> > > it should be they can cause quite a bit of turbulence within 
the 
> > > branch especially if they have joined with a preexisting 
agenda, 
> > like 
> > > promoting some particular hobbyhorse they may be on at the time.
> > > 
> > > Then you get those who have been involved with the society for 
> some 
> > > years, read a lot of the traditional literature of the 
> > society?.they 
> > > may appear to newcomers as being stuck in the past or not 
> > > progressive. 
> > > 
> > > On the one side there maybe what seems to be a force of 
> > expansiveness 
> > > and on the other traditionalism.
> > > 
> > > Expansiveness and traditionalism have this constant grappling 
> with 
> > > each other.
> > > 
> > > I would suggest both have a place, however both need to use 
> wisdom, 
> > > otherwise what you get is either lack of direction and purpose 
on 
> > the 
> > > one hand or stagnation and mindless rigidity on the other.
> > > 
> > > Sometimes we need to drop some aspects that may no longer be 
> > > appropriate.
> > > 
> > > For example in our branch the speaker used to stand on a stage 
> > > towering above the audience and the president used to sit in a 
> big 
> > > chair on the stage like a king on a throne.
> > > 
> > > This thankfully was changed so that the president sat with 
> everyone 
> > > else and the speaker stood on the level with rest of the 
audience.
> > > 
> > > This was a break from the old hierarchical mindset of 
superiority 
> > and 
> > > a movement towards equality and brotherhood at least in 
symbolic 
> > > terms as to how the lodge was setup.
> > > 
> > > Also the invocation was changed to a more gender sensitive and 
> > > inclusive form, once again a symbol of inclusiveness and 
equality.
> > > 
> > > The other side of the coin is when people want to overturn 
> > everything 
> > > simply because its old.
> > > 
> > > When we are at a theosophical society set up to study the 
ANCIENT 
> > > Wisdom this could be problematic however.
> > > 
> > > Theosophy does speak of a spiritual path although I know 
> > Krishnamurti 
> > > spoke very eloquently about moving beyond rigid and 
superstitious 
> > > ideas about it.
> > > Just a few thoughts 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Cheers
> > > 
> > > Perry
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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