Theos-Talk Archives (February 2007 Message tt00306)

Dear Marie
Thanks for sharing again.
Yes, our brain is the great liberator and "entrapper". And how do we 
tell the difference?
Whether Bishop Leadbeater was a chela with difficulties, we may only 
know perhaps when we reach a deeper state of awareness.
Reading and thinking for ourselves in an atmosphere of genuine and 
unequivocal freedom of thought is to me the key to our individual and 
collective liberation. 
All the very best.
Kind regards
Nigel


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, MarieMAJ41@... wrote:
>
> Nigel, for me the most difficult thing about sifting about for 
Truth is to remain detached from my own brain! I am easily led, that 
is why I find so many writings of Leadbeater appealing, especially 
his "At The Feet of The Master." Could it be that Leadbeater was a 
chela? And could that be why his writings are so diverse and almost 
seem to have been brought about with alter-personalities? I 
understand that chelaship is truly difficult and that the worst that 
is in us is often brought out for the world to examine. I think the 
reason that is so is that people who are "spiritual" often do not 
want to see their own sins....and therefore commit them for the world 
to view?
>  
> Well, again, I don't know. The reason I joined the Adyar Society is 
because they had a picture hanging in the hall of a woman that looked 
very much like my grandmother. When I read the caption I discovered 
that her name was Helena Petrovna Blavatsky! I originally visited the 
Quest Book Shop in search of more new age books. The clerk there 
asked me if I had ever visited Headquarters building and suggested I 
visit the library. Her very timely suggestion was well taken, because 
I had been spending a large sum on books, believe me. So after seeing 
the picture of Helena, I entered the library and the rest is history 
in the making in my life.
>  
> So, in my search for truth, I probably do what our forum mate 
Daniel does. I read and think for myself. And I hugely appreciate 
this forum because of the many different points of view on so many 
topics. And I have learned so much more here that I ever did sitting 
in the lectures and in my study groups. And may I say now, I hope 
that our friend Carlos is alive and well. I miss his knowledgeable 
contributions.
>  
> Marie
>  
>  
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nhcareyta@...
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 7:41 PM
> Subject: Theos-World Re: CW Leadbeater website
> 
> 
> Dear Marie
> Thank you too for your response, based obviously in experience and 
> not mere speculation. I likewise agree with much of what you write. 
> 
> My statements concerning Bishop Leadbeater's lies and deceit 
however 
> are not referring to his supposedly psychic pronouncements although 
> many of these were demonstrably wild and fanciful as you allude. As 
> we know, psychic visions are notoriously unreliable whose 
> interpretation is largely subject to the worldview and mindset of 
the 
> investigator. 
> Bishop Leadbeater's worldview was very much Victorian English where 
> position and status were synonymous with power and prestige and 
> therefore prized possessions, hence the repeated lies and 
deceptions 
> as to his background and upbringing. 
> 
> His mindset was also of a kind, one which valued authority, 
> superiority, control, obedience and compliance. These qualities of 
> temperament usually have their roots in fear which produces a 
fertile 
> ground for blind belief and devotional following with commensurate 
> reliance on external power and authority, more particularly in his 
> case of the religious kind.
> An interesting irony is that Dr Annie Besant, a previously staunch 
> supporter of free thinking also eventually succumbed to this 
> insidiously authoritarian mindset, where power and not truth 
> sometimes became the priority.
> 
> From my current perspective, this style of mindset is distinctly 
> different and indeed anathema to that implicit and explicit in the 
> Theosophy of Madame Blavatsky. As a single example, whilst she used 
> literally thousands of references throughout her works embracing a 
> vast vision of the ageless wisdom, Bishop Leadbeater used 
> comparatively few, relying mostly on his own perceived authority. 
> Whilst the occult concepts reintroduced by Madame Blavatsky were 
> attempting to massively expand our minds out of their traditionally 
> simplistic and compliant state, Bishop Leadbeater effectively 
> misrepresented these and moreover produced a reduced version, much 
of 
> which at the level of romantic, religious simplicity. 
> Whilst Madame Blavatsky railed against the disempowering activities 
> of the Christian religious institutions, Bishop Leadbeater helped 
> form his own pseudo theosophical Christian church complete with 
male 
> hierarchy and superiority.
> 
> The crucial questions to me are whether much of the worldview and 
> mindset of Bishop Leadbeater and Dr Besant can be relied upon to 
> state the truth or indeed to elicit freedom which might lead to 
truth 
> and, if not, should they be supported and promoted? 
> 
> According to some in this forum, this is not an issue. According to 
> them, they are dead, it all happened a long time ago, so it doesn't 
> matter. 
> Yes they are dead and long gone however most of their writings are 
> not and are not only currently available and published but are 
highly 
> recommended by many in the Adyar Society.
> 
> Marie, I particularly appreciated your statement "I don't know" 
when 
> referring to whether your membership condones the "Leadbeater and 
> Besant debacle". 
> My journey through this dilemma was long and arduous over a number 
of 
> years with many subtleties and nuances arising from lengthy 
> discussions with numerous committed members. In my experience, most 
> of the members of the Adyar Society were normal, everyday people 
with 
> inquiring minds and respectful attitudes. Those in positions of 
> responsibility however were often quite different.
> The argument recently posted here that many people have arrived at 
> Theosophy through the theosophy of Bishop Leadbeater has not been 
my 
> experience in the Adyar Society. 
> Most people came seeking simple answers to the radically complex 
> propositions of life. Bishop Leadbeater offers these putative 
> representations through his aforementioned methodology. 
> As mentioned in a previous posting, during my time within the 
> organisation, of the approximately ten percent of Adyar Society 
> members who had any interest in theosophy only five percent of 
those 
> showed interest in Madame Blavatsky's work. Ninety five percent 
> remained satisfied with the works of Bishop Leadbeater and Dr 
Besant 
> and many would argue defensively in their favour and often act 
> politically when exposed to the innumerable contradictions and 
> deceptions. The argument for simplification became the mantra for 
> personal comfort and the genuine and ongoing search for truth 
mostly 
> became lost in the maelstrom.
> 
> Marie, my decision not to support the Adyar Society as a member at 
> the present time was not taken lightly as you might imagine. There 
> are many good and well-intentioned members, many of whom work 
> honourably, tirelessly and compassionately to "alleviate suffering".
> Unfortunately the Freedom of Thought statement was interpreted by 
> most in positions of significant responsibility as liberty to 
> actively support and promote thoroughly discredited theosophical 
> writings and writers. 
> This I could no longer countenance
> 
> And herein perhaps lies our broader dilemma as a human race. 
> Too often we surrender our freedom and independence of thought to 
> leaders for such reasons as fear, insecurity, feelings of 
inferiority 
> and a programmed mindset of reliance on external power and 
authority 
> for our safety and security. However untruthful and deceptive these 
> leaders may be, nonetheless we so often mindlessly, powerlessly and 
> obediently defer to their authority.
> 
> Until we begin to truly think for ourselves and actively support 
and 
> encourage others so to do, our minds will remain the puppets of 
power 
> brokers who well understand the tendencies of human nature and 
whose 
> ethic is so often based in power, not wisdom.
> 
> As budding Theosophists, perhaps we have a greater responsibility 
> than most to support the ideal of Truth, in all its forms, in 
> whichever way we can, for the sake of all.
> 
> Kind regards
> Nigel
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, MarieMAJ41@ wrote:
> >
> > Thank you Nigel. I want to tell you that I agree almost 
completely 
> with your assessment and reasoning. However, I cannot know whether 
or 
> not he lied deliberately, or misinterpreted his visions into the 
> astral world. It is entirely conceivable that being a fairly naive 
> and impressionable person, as I perceive people who become clergy 
to 
> be, Leadbeater had an entirely different world-view than most of 
us. 
> I say all this with tongue in cheek however, because most of what 
> Leadbeater has written about life on Mars and such is simply "poppy-
> cock". And the past lives, LOL. But some of his books are even 
> inspiring? 
> > 
> > I do think that Leadbeater was a pedophile. But he may not have 
> known it. The Adyar Society is a little like Leadbeater [and his 
> cohort Annie Besant] in fact. Ambitious people are at the head of 
it, 
> and only ambitious people will ever be in charge They will do what 
> they must to stay in power and lead the sheeple. But that is not to 
> say that those same people have not done good for the spreading of 
> theosophy. I think they count on the fact that many, if not most, 
> people who join the Society will never find out about the various 
> controversies and the different splinter groups that have arisen. 
> When I joined the Adyar Society, it was because it was there, I had 
> not way of knowing that there were choices, and I was never 
informed 
> about any choices. So I became a Life-Member. So, am I through my 
> membership condoning the Leadbeater and Besant debacle? I don't 
> know. And at this point, since Blavatsky, Judge, Olcott, Leadbeater 
> and Besant have gone to their reward, I don't care. I will just 
have 
> to make do with the literature and my own intuitions.
> > 
> > Marie
> > 
> >
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: nhcareyta@
> > To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 7:40 PM
> > Subject: Theos-World Re: CW Leadbeater website
> > 
> > 
> > Dear Marie
> > Thank you for alerting us to this website. It is a worthwhile 
> > contribution to an interesting debate.
> > 
> > On this site, Pedro takes what appears to be at first glance a 
> > reasoned approach to some of the issues surrounding Bishop 
> > Leadbeater. For the uninformed or faithful some of the ideas he 
> > presents sound entirely reasonable and supportable by any fair 
> minded 
> > person.
> > However for me, Pedro's work is an extraordinary minimisation of 
> some 
> > real issues. 
> > 
> > As has been mentioned so many times in this forum, Bishop 
> Leadbeater 
> > produced utterly contradictory accounts of occult teachings from 
> > Madame Blavatsky and her occult teachers, despite claiming to be 
in 
> > direct contact with those very same teachers. He also lied and 
> > deceived people on numerous occasions as is well documented and 
> > validated. 
> > 
> > Unfortunately and yet again it needs to be stated that this is in 
> no 
> > way suggesting that Madame Blavatsky and her teachers are in 
> > possession of absolute truth and that their students are, in 
> effect, 
> > blind devotees as Pedro and others seem concerned about. This is 
an 
> > age old diversionary tactic, used consciously or unconsciously, 
of 
> > subtly suggesting something where often no such thing exists.
> > 
> > Furthermore and once again, it is not suggesting that Bishop 
> > Leadbeater was all bad and contributed nothing of any value. He 
was 
> a 
> > dedicated and hard worker for his version of theosophy, his 
Society 
> > and his church.
> > 
> > However, Pedro either doesn't understand or doesn't want to 
> > understand the gravity of Bishop Leadbeater's many intellectual 
> > indiscretions and manifest incidents of breach of trust.
> > It seems that matters of honour, integrity and truth are 
> unimportant 
> > with respect to spiritual teachers and teachings despite the good 
> > Bishop's ardent professions to the contrary in most of his works.
> > 
> > Kind regards
> > Nigel
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, MarieMAJ41@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Friends, I received this from another forum from Pedro 
> > Oliveira, but thought u all might enjoy this.
> > > 
> > > Please find below the URL for a website dedicated to C. W. 
> > Leadbeater.
> > > 
> > > http://www.cwlworld.info/index.html
> > > 
> > > 
> > > With warm and fraternal regards to all,
> > > 
> > > Marie and Pedro Oliveira
> > > 
> > __________________________________________________________
> > __
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> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> __________________________________________________________
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> >
> 
> 
>  
> 
______________________________________________________________________
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