Theos-Talk Archives (November 2006 Message tt00814)

I have the same book and I stay saying Leadbeater have nothing to do 
with racism and all things said about him.
That you see that different, say something about you.
Christina.









-- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
<carlosaveline@...> wrote:
>
> Christina,
> 
> Hi. 
> 
> As my written references say, I am working with the 
India/Adyar/TPH 1978 edition of "The Perfume". 
> 
> It is all there, the rascism, the contempt for black people, for 
indigenous people, the lack of basic information about the profound 
ethnic mixing which is the main characteristic in Brazil and in a 
great part of Latin America...
> 
> The pride in killing people with firearms...
> 
> 
> Best regards,   Carlos. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Cópia:
> 
> Data:Mon, 13 Nov 2006 18:56:38 -0000
> 
> Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World Re: CWL AGAINST BLACK/INDIGENOUS PEOPLES
> 
> > -I have no quest book , but the original from TPH Adyar
> > Other question:
> > If we read the conqueror stories of that Red Indians,Spains and 
so 
> > on who conquered South America,are they good civilized people?
> > Also the whites are not always, the only thing I can say 
Leadbeater 
> > better could not write is that the blank is the superior race.
> > That is not at all.
> > Christina
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "'Cuervo'" wrote:
> > >
> > > Carlos - Christina et al -
> > > 
> > > The publishing policy at Quest Books initiated by Helen Zahara 
> > when 
> > > she came around 1970 was to edit out all negative racial and 
> > ethnic 
> > > comments, especially in the writings of Leadbeater, though I 
think 
> > > also in Jinarajadasa's introductory book on Theosophy. There 
are 
> > > examples in most of CWL's writings, but it is difficult to 
find 
> > the 
> > > originals of some to compare with.
> > > 
> > > Ken
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Christina,
> > > > 
> > > > Please look at the pages 167 and 168 of your "The Perfume of 
> > > Egypt", TPH 1978 edition, and you will find these quotations 
which 
> > I 
> > > comment below:
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > ooooooooo
> > > > 
> > > > Leadbeater says about "red indians": 
> > > > 
> > > > "Of these many tribes had adopted a kind of squalid 
> > civilization, 
> > > but many others were still savages untamed and untamable ? men 
who 
> > > regarded work of any kind as the deepest degradation ? who 
hated 
> > the 
> > > white man with a traditional, unrelenting hatred, and (strange 
as 
> > it 
> > > may seen) more than reciprocated the boundless contempt of the 
> > blue-
> > > blooded hidalgo of Spain. It will be no doubt incomprehensible 
to 
> > > many of us that a half-naked savage can entertain any other 
> > feeling 
> > > than envy for our superior civilization, however much he may 
> > dislike 
> > > us; but I can only say that the quite genuine and unaffected 
> > feeling 
> > > of the Red Indian towards the white man is pure and 
unmitigated 
> > > contempt." 
> > > > 
> > > > But CWL proceeds (p. 168) to develop his unbrotherly view of 
> > human 
> > > beings: 
> > > > 
> > > > "Then came the negro race ? no inconsiderable portion of the 
> > > populations, and chiefly in a state of slavery, though the 
> > > Government was doing all in its power to remove that curse 
from 
> > its 
> > > territories; and last and worst came what were called the half-
> > > breeds or half-castes ? a mixed race which seemed, as mixed 
races 
> > > sometimes do, to combine all the worst qualities of both its 
> > parent 
> > > stocks. Indians, Spaniards, and Negro alike despised them; and 
> > they 
> > > in turn regarded all alike with a virulent hatred." 
> > > > 
> > > > We can see in these words some strong `pioneer elements' for 
the 
> > > future ideologies of Nazism and Fascism, and ultimately for 
the 
> > mass-
> > > murder attemtps of "ethnic cleansing". Look at it again: 
> > > > 
> > > > " (...) and last and worst came what were called the half-
breeds 
> > > or half-castes ? a mixed race which seemed (...) to combine 
all 
> > the 
> > > worst qualities of both its parent stocks." 
> > > > 
> > > > This is Leadbeater. 
> > > > 
> > > > Brazil has been from the very beginning a miscigenation 
people 
> > and 
> > > indigenous people here never present resintence or hated the 
white 
> > > people. Their culture was too primitive for that, say. We have 
> > never 
> > > had important racial tensions or hatred in Brazil, aas such, 
> > though 
> > > there was social violence. 
> > > > 
> > > > Miscigenation is part of the preparation for the next sub-
race, 
> > as 
> > > HPB writes in the "Secret Doctrine". 
> > > > 
> > > > Regards, Carlos. 
> > > > 
> > > > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > 
> > > > Para:"theos-talk" theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > 
> > > > Cópia:"carlosaveline" carlosaveline@
> > > > 
> > > > Data:Mon, 13 Nov 2006 11:00:40 -0300
> > > > 
> > > > Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World CWL AGAINST BLACK AND INDIGENOUS 
> > PEOPLES
> > > > 
> > > > > Dear Friends, 
> > > > > 
> > > > > This is about Bishop Leadbeater and his imaginary 
adventures 
> > in 
> > > South America. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > C. Jinarajadasa believed he was there with Leadbeater in a 
> > > previous body, and that he was his biological younger brother, 
who 
> > > was allegedly killed and 'rediscovered' by CWL in Ceylon. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > In fact, in a footnote to his autobiographical Postface in 
the 
> > > book "The Seven Veils of Consciousness", C. Jinarajadasa 
states 
> > that 
> > > that the true story of his own "previous (and glorious) death 
in 
> > > Brazil" is narrated in the chapter "Saved by a Ghost", of the 
> > > book "The Perfume of Egypt" (2). 
> > > > > 
> > > > > C.J. believed everything CWL said, and he also writes in 
the 
> > > note that the same old silver crucifix which is mentioned in 
that 
> > > story was in his possession, as he wrote "The Seven Veils of 
> > > Consciousness". 
> > > > > 
> > > > > As to Leadbeater, in the preface of his 'The Perfume of 
> > Egypt", 
> > > he makes a solemn statement: 
> > > > > 
> > > > > "The stories in this book happen to be true." 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Along "Saved By a Ghost", the longest story of the volume, 
> > > Leadbeater proudly describes how he killed numerous black 
people 
> > and 
> > > indigenous people in South America during his youth. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Of course, common sense says that the story is as illusory 
as 
> > > the visits Leabeater made to physical plane civilizations in 
Mars 
> > > and Mercury. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > But even if it were presented as a `short novel' pure and 
> > > simple, and not as an autobiographical narration, the content 
of 
> > the 
> > > text reveals too much of racism and disrespect against black 
> > people, 
> > > indigenous people and their right to live. Leadbeater also 
uses 
> > the 
> > > term "race" not in its theosophical meaning, but in the 
> > > nationalistic way, as if each country had its own 'race', 
> > > anticipating what Adolf Hitler would do decades later. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > At p. 167 of the Adyar edition, one starts to read his 
> > > description of Brazilian people: 
> > > > > 
> > > > > "First came the descendants of Spanish and Portuguese 
> > > conquerors ? a haughty, indolent race; a race courtly and 
> > > hospitable, by no means without its good qualities, but yet 
one 
> > > whose strongest characteristic was an immeasurable contempt 
(or 
> > the 
> > > affectation of it) for all other races whatsoever". 
> > > > > 
> > > > > The amount of illusions-per-line is outstanding here. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > First, Spanish people were never `conquerors' in Brazil. 
The 
> > > country was `discovered' and made a colony by Portugal. 
Second, 
> > > Portuguese people are not a race; and they cannot be easily 
> > > described as `indolent'. Third, Portuguese people generaly did 
not 
> > > show `contempt' for other `races', and it is for this reason 
that 
> > > miscigenation ? intermarriage ? was from the first the main 
> > > anthropological characteristic of the emerging Brazilian 
nation. 
> > > Portuguese people easily created strong personal links with 
black 
> > > people and indigenous people. (Of course, colonization was 
also 
> > > violent.)
> > > > > 
> > > > > In the next paragraph, "bishop" Leadbeater is even more 
> > > surprising: 
> > > > > 
> > > > > "Next came red indians". 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Well, there are no `red indians' in Brazil, although the 
term 
> > is 
> > > very common in old North American Far West bang-bang stories, 
in 
> > > which hundreds of "bad" Indians get typically killed by a few 
> > white 
> > > men usually presented as brave heros. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Leadbeater says about "red indians": 
> > > > > 
> > > > > "Of these many tribes had adopted a kind of squalid 
> > > civilization, but many others were still savages untamed and 
> > > untamable ? men who regarded work of any kind as the deepest 
> > > degradation ? who hated the white man with a traditional, 
> > > unrelenting hatred, and (strange as it may seen) more than 
> > > reciprocated the boundless contempt of the blue-blooded 
hidalgo of 
> > > Spain. It will be no doubt incomprehensible to many of us that 
a 
> > > half-naked savage can entertain any other feeling than envy 
for 
> > our 
> > > superior civilization, however much he may dislike us; but I 
can 
> > > only say that the quite genuine and unaffected feeling of the 
Red 
> > > Indian towards the white man is pure and unmitigated 
contempt." 
> > > > > 
> > > > > What are the problems in these few lines? First, again 
comes 
> > the 
> > > Spanish `hidalgo' (nobleman) apparently ruling Brazil, a 
country 
> > > which was independent from Portugal (not Spain), since 1822, 
and 
> > was 
> > > never under any "Spanish' ruling class. Second, the `red 
Indian' 
> > > again. Third, indigenous people and did not express hate 
against 
> > > white people, and never actively resisted the domination of 
> > European 
> > > rulers in Brazil. These two paragraphs simply can't refer to 
any 
> > > South American country. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > But CWL proceeds (p. 168) to develop his unbrotherly view 
of 
> > > human beings: 
> > > > > 
> > > > > "Then came the negro race ? no inconsiderable portion of 
the 
> > > populations, and chiefly in a state of slavery, though the 
> > > Government was doing all in its power to remove that curse 
from 
> > its 
> > > territories; and last and worst came what were called the half-
> > > breeds or half-castes ? a mixed race which seemed, as mixed 
races 
> > > sometimes do, to combine all the worst qualities of both its 
> > parent 
> > > stocks. Indians, Spaniards, and Negro alike despised them; and 
> > they 
> > > in turn regarded all alike with a virulent hatred." 
> > > > > 
> > > > > We can see in these words some strong `pioneer elements' 
for 
> > the 
> > > future ideologies of Nazism and Fascism, and ultimately for 
the 
> > mass-
> > > murder attemtps of "ethnic cleansing". Look at it again: 
> > > > > 
> > > > > " (...) and last and worst came what were called the half-
> > breeds 
> > > or half-castes ? a mixed race which seemed (...) to combine 
all 
> > the 
> > > worst qualities of both its parent stocks." 
> > > > > 
> > > > > This is Leadbeater. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > But -- what about Theosophy? What does esoteric philosophy 
> > > really say about the relations between rich and poor nations 
and 
> > > among all different ethnical groups, with their varied kinds 
of 
> > > colours in the skin? In the "Letters from the Masters", the 
famous 
> > > letter known as coming from the "Great Master" says: 
> > > > > 
> > > > > "To achieve the proposed object, a greater, a wiser, and 
> > > especially a more benevolent intermingling of the high and the 
> > low, 
> > > of the Alpha and the Omega of Society, was determined upon. 
The 
> > > white race must be the first to stretch out the hand of 
fellowship 
> > > to the dark nations, to call the poor despised `nigger' 
brother. 
> > > This prospect may not smile to all, but he is no Theosophist 
who 
> > > objects to his principle" (2) 
> > > > > 
> > > > > One can only conclude, then, that in writing that 
paragraph 
> > > Leadbeater was "no theosophist". 
> > > > > 
> > > > > In fact, Leadbeater's vision of human beings as presented 
in 
> > > that long story is not only ethically and culturally 
unacceptable. 
> > > It is also legally criminal, for racism and stimulation of 
hatred 
> > > among people of different skin-colours has been defined as 
crime 
> > in 
> > > Brazil a few years ago. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > One can understand why the Brazilian edition of "Saved By 
a 
> > > Ghost" cannot be found in Brazilian bookshops any longer. Yet 
it 
> > is 
> > > still for sale at Adyar, it seems. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > ( In another posting, I should refer to Leadbeater's 
proudly 
> > > alleged acts of violence leading to death, which, even if seen 
as 
> > > fictional, are profoundly untheosophical. ) 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Best regards, Carlos. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > NOTE:
> > > > > 
> > > > > (1) "The Perfume of Egypt", by C. W. Leadbeater, whose 
sixth 
> > > edition (TPH Adyar, 265 pp.) is dated 1978. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > (2) "Letters From the Masters of the Wisdom", compiled by 
C. 
> > > Jinarajadasa, Adyar TPH, first series, Letter number one, 
known 
> > > as `the Maha-Chohan Letter' or "the Great Master Letter'. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente 
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