Theos-Talk Archives (November 2006 Message tt00387)

Carl,

Your points below:


1) Obvious.

2) Not being a Jesuit or an Opus Dei member myself, and not paying too much attention to the "work" of these two organizations,  I would not be able to discuss it in  details or with too much emphasis. 

3) No problem with that. 


Regards,  Carlos. 


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Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Cópia:

Data:Mon, 06 Nov 2006 13:57:24 -0000

Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World Re: JESUITS & VATICAN

> Carlos,
> 
> 1) The fact that SJ, has been closed shows that SJ and the 
> Vatican, not "always" had been on friendly foot with one another. 
> And the Vatican and SJ, are today in a big conflict, partly because 
> JP2 preferred the Opus Dei.
> 2) I know that the "Theology of Liberation" is more of 
> Franciscans, and even more an OMI thing. I don't totally agree with 
> you that "the classical task of Jesuits has been widely taken over 
> by the 'Opus Dei" and not that "Opus Dei' is the new version of the 
> classical Jesuits". Only that the Opus Dei has taken over al the 
> negative and "nasty" parts. SJ has an "esoteric" base in their 
> belief; the Opus Dei is fundamentalistic Roman Catholics. But that 
> we can leave. 
> 3) I don't study writings of HPB and Masters as historical 
> literature, but hence they contain esoteric knowledge and wisdom. 
> But I know very well what they are saying about the Jesuits. I agree 
> with them, but still, the SJ are very much misunderstood. Often, 
> even by Theosophists, it is missed their real inner, black magical 
> and "occult", spirit; that are the "Dugpas" of Christianity. 
> Cesarism was supported by SJ, but hardly not so much more today. 
> 
> Carl
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> wrote:
> >
> > Carl,
> > 
> > 1) The OFFICIAL closing of the Jesuits only happened for some 
> time. They had abused too much; they were involved, for instance, in 
> killing Portugal's king. They had to be stopped, at least in part. 
> > 
> > 2) The recent "Theology of Liberation" is more of Franciscans, and 
> Latin Americans. True, some Jesuits supported and still support 
> it. But, please, take into consideration the public fact that in 
> the 20th century the classical task of Jesuits has been widely taken 
> over by the 'Opus Dei'. This is obvious and public today and has 
> been so since the 1960s, say. 'Opus Dei' is the new version of the 
> classical Jesuits. Same methods, same 'personal loyalty to the 
> Pope', etc.
> > 
> > 3) If you study HPB and the Mahatma Letters, you will see the 
> Jesuits were the great allies to the Pope up to the 19th century. 
> They are historically linked to the very idea that the Popes are to 
> be seen as "absolute monarchs" -- of course, with the help of their 
> secret police and 'intelligence agency',the Jesuits... This is 
> well documented...
> > 
> > By the way, we have had long and fruitful discussions here on 
> Vatican, Jesuits and Opus Dei, earlier in 2006. 
> > 
> > 
> > Regards, Carlos. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Cópia:
> > 
> > Data:Mon, 06 Nov 2006 04:24:35 -0000
> > 
> > Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World Re: CARL AND CEREMONIALISM
> > 
> > > Carlos,
> > > 
> > > You say:
> > > "The Jesuits have almost always been most influential 
> (and 'loyal') 
> > > as to the Popes."
> > > 
> > > I say; not true.
> > > 
> > > "The Suppression of the Jesuits in Portugal, France, the Two 
> > > Sicilies, Parma and the Spanish Empire by 1767 was troubling to 
> the 
> > > Society's defender, Pope Clement XIII. Following a decree signed 
> by 
> > > Pope Clement XIV under secular pressure in July 1773, the 
> Jesuits 
> > > were suppressed in all countries except Russia, where Catherine 
> the 
> > > Great had forbidden the papal decree to be promulgated. Because 
> > > millions of Catholics (including many Jesuits) lived in the 
> Polish 
> > > western provinces of the Russian Empire, the Society was able to 
> > > maintain its legal existence and carry on its work all through 
> the 
> > > period of suppression."
> > > From" 
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuits
> > > See further:
> > > http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14086a.htm
> > > http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14099a.htm
> > > http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14081a.htm
> > > http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14096a.htm
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppression_of_the_Jesuits
> > > 
> > > "Jesuits have had significant influence in the development of 
> > > liberation theology, a movement which has been highly 
> controversial 
> > > in the Catholic theological community and condemned by Pope John 
> > > Paul II on several fundamental aspects."
> > > 
> > > From: 
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuits
> > > 
> > > 
> > > "In April 2005, Thomas J. Reese, SJ, editor of the American 
> Jesuit 
> > > weekly magazine America, resigned at the request of the Society. 
> The 
> > > move was widely published in the media as the result of pressure 
> > > from the Vatican, following years of criticism by the 
> Congregation 
> > > for the Doctrine of the Faith on articles touching subjects such 
> as 
> > > HIV/AIDS, religious pluralism, homosexuality and the right of 
> life 
> > > for the unborn. Reese is currently on a year-long sabbatical at 
> > > Santa Clara University.
> > > 
> > > On February 2, 2006, Fr. Peter Hans Kolvenbach, informed members 
> of 
> > > the Society of Jesus, that with the consent of Pope Benedict 
> XVI, he 
> > > intends to step down as Superior General in 2008, the year he 
> will 
> > > turn 80. The 35th General Congregation of the Society of Jesus 
> that 
> > > will elect a new superior general, and decide other important 
> policy 
> > > for the Jesuit order in the years to come, will convene on 5 
> January 
> > > 2008, in Rome."
> > > 
> > > From: 
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuits
> > > 
> > > 
> > > "The Jesuits have frequently been described by their enemies 
> (both 
> > > Catholic and Protestant) as engaged in various conspiracies. The 
> > > Monita secreta, published 1614 in Kraków, allegedly written by 
> > > Claudio Acquaviva, in reality by Jerome Zahorowski, were 
> fabricated 
> > > to expose such a conspiracy. They have also been accused of 
> using 
> > > casuistry to obtain justifications for the unjustifiable. In 
> several 
> > > languages, "Jesuit" or "Jesuitical" therefore acquired a 
> secondary 
> > > meaning of "devious." The Jesuits have also been targeted by 
> many 
> > > anti-Catholics like Jack Chick, Avro Manhattan, and Alberto 
> Rivera. 
> > > Among other things they point to the text of an extreme oath 
> > > allegedly taken by advanced members of the order, which can be 
> > > construed to justify any action including infiltration of other 
> > > faiths as legitimate in the name of the "greater good." The 
> Jesuits 
> > > have been accused of murdering Popes and presidents, causing 
> wars, 
> > > and toppling governments. There is also a claim common among 
> many 
> > > anti-Catholics that the Jesuit Superior General rules the 
> Vatican 
> > > behind the scenes.
> > > 
> > > Within the Catholic Church, some Jesuits are criticized by some 
> > > parties for being overly liberal and deviating substantially 
> from 
> > > official Church teaching and papal directives, especially on 
> such 
> > > issues as abortion, priestly celibacy, homosexuality, and 
> liberation 
> > > theology.[13] Pope Benedict XVI, like his predecessor John Paul 
> II, 
> > > has been particularly critical of the order.[14] Indeed, it is 
> not 
> > > unusual, especially in more conservative Catholic outlets, to 
> hear 
> > > calls for the outright abolishment of the Jesuit order. Thus, 
> some 
> > > may argue that the future influence of the Jesuits in the 
> Catholic 
> > > community, and perhaps their very existence, remains uncertain, 
> > > while others may note that the Jesuit Order is well established 
> in 
> > > the Church and the communities where they intervene."
> > > 
> > > From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuits#Controversies
> > > 
> > > See further:
> > > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?
> > > 
> xml=/news/2005/05/08/wjes08.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/05/08/ixworld.html
> > > http://www.cwnews.com/offtherecord/offtherecord.cfm?
> > > task=singledisplay&recnum=2627
> > > http://www.nationalreview.com/kurtz/kurtz031302.asp
> > > http://www.nationalreview.com/kurtz/kurtz031302.asp
> > > http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives/081100/081100e.htm
> > > http://www.sspx.ca/Angelus/1984_November/Pope_Jesuits.htm
> > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/pope/obit/theo_authority.shtml
> > > 
> > > In a review of "The Pope and the Jesuits" by James Hitchcock by 
> > > Father Philip M. Stark we read:
> > > "The outline of the book is simple. After a brief glance, we see 
> > > Pope John Paul II putting his own representative (an Italian 
> Jesuit) 
> > > at the head of the Order until a new superior general can be 
> elected 
> > > to replace the permanently incapacitated Father Pedro Arrupe. 
> There 
> > > was great indignation in the ranks when this happened, I well 
> > > remember. I also remember thinking how ironic it was that 
> resentment 
> > > should be directed at a Pope who was worried enough about the 
> > > activities of the Order to intervene in its government?the very 
> > > Order founded to give unquestioning obedience to the Holy See. 
> It 
> > > seemed like treason to think it, but I thought it: the Jesuits 
> have 
> > > lost sight of the reason for their existence. Professor 
> Hitchcock 
> > > has now confirmed that impression for me."
> > > From: http://www.sspx.ca/Angelus/1984_November/Pope_Jesuits.htm
> > > "I must add, as a parenthesis, that reading this painful record 
> of 
> > > the trouble the Jesuits are giving poor Pope John Paul has given 
> me 
> > > a new respect for him."
> > > 
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Carl,
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > You say: 
> > > > 
> > > > " I can see that you are not a Mason, and therefore you have a 
> > > good 
> > > > reason to not know real Meaning of Freemasonry."
> > > > 
> > > > I say:
> > > > 
> > > > "I am not. But about it I know for a fact more than I feel at 
> > > ease to write about in Theos-talk; so please do not jump to 
> final 
> > > conclusions."
> > > > 
> > > > You say: 
> > > > 
> > > > "I know HPB said that Freemasonry was infiltrated by the 
> Jesuits, 
> > > but this has nothing to do with the Vatican, hence the Vatican 
> and 
> > > Jesuits often don't like one another." 
> > > > 
> > > > I say:
> > > > 
> > > > "Not true. The Jesuits have almost always been most 
> influential 
> > > (and 'loyal') as to the Popes. They have worked as the Popes' 
> CIA 
> > > or 'M.I. 5', say. HPB wrote about that. Anyway, the true fact 
> > > remains that the Masonry has been utterly infiltrated by its 
> > > enemies; and by HPB's enemies; although individual Masons, 
> > > including some influential ones, were real Occultists amid the 
> bad 
> > > stuff; id est, the exception to the rule. "
> > > > 
> > > > As to living in a "Catholic" country -- again this is jumping 
> and 
> > > personalizing conclusions. 
> > > > 
> > > > In order to illustrate that, I will tell you that I was never 
> > > baptized in any Church, Christian or otherwise, in this 
> lifetime, 
> > > which is more than many people can say about their ' original 
> non-
> > > churchianity'. And never believed in any Christian "God", too. 
> > > > 
> > > > Try to think impersonally, please. Personalistic projections 
> end 
> > > up by making the game of you-know-whom (lower level 
> elementals) . 
> > > > 
> > > > I see you as a sincere truth-seeker and I respect you for 
> that. 
> > > > 
> > > > We are exchanging views. Neither of us is the truth-owner, I 
> > > guess, on any subject. We are searching for a better 
> understanding 
> > > of life. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Carlos. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > 
> > > > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > 
> > > > Cópia:
> > > > 
> > > > Data:Sat, 04 Nov 2006 16:36:12 -0000
> > > > 
> > > > Assunto:Theos-World Re: CEREMONIALISM and HPB
> > > > 
> > > > > Carlos,
> > > > > 
> > > > > I can see that you are not a Mason, and therefore you have a 
> > > good 
> > > > > reason to not know real Meaning of Freemasonry.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Second, please, stop talk about Leadbeater in these matters. 
> He 
> > > has 
> > > > > nothing to do in a serious discussion. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > And further. You writ; "the Masonry was so heavily and
> > > > > freely infiltrated by the Vatican Jesuits centuries ago, as 
> you 
> > > > > certainly know
> > > > > HPB says." I know she said that Freemasonry infiltrated by 
> the 
> > > > > Jesuits, but this has nothing to do with the Vatican, hence 
> the 
> > > > > Vatican and Jesuits often don't like one another. To 
> > > say "heavily 
> > > > > and freely" is to over react. There is only one 
> know "Jesuit" 
> > > (he 
> > > > > was not even a real Jesuit, but something similar to a 
> tertiary 
> > > > > member, even if SJ don't have that officially), that have 
> made a 
> > > > > carrier in Masonry, and that was Magister Johann August 
> Starck, 
> > > > > active mason ca. 1750-70. This connection Jesuits ? 
> Freemason is 
> > > > > untrue, as the Nazis Freemasons ? Jews is untrue. That is al 
> > > based, 
> > > > > and with its routs, in Anti-Masonry (from low-church 
> > > protestants, in 
> > > > > the US). 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Carlos, I think you are mixing things up. This could be 
> hence 
> > > you 
> > > > > are from a Catholic country, but no I'm only guessing. 
> Ritual 
> > > and 
> > > > > ritual is not always the same thing.
> > > > > 
> > > > > You wrote; "Jesus, Buddha and Lao Tzu -- 2,500 years ago -- 
> were 
> > > > > already critical of their time ritualisms and sacerdotal 
> > > > > hierarchies. So this thing is not 'entirely new'." On this 
> is my 
> > > > > comment that one find, what one is looking for.
> > > > > 
> > > > > And: "Still, I did not see HPB writing about ritualism, or 
> > > defending 
> > > > > it as a practice
> > > > > for theosophists. Did you?" And still she wrote several 
> rituals 
> > > here 
> > > > > self, fore the use in the ES, and let Olcott write rituals 
> for 
> > > TS. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > And: "I am generally friendly toward Masons, but I do not 
> think 
> > > > > there should be any
> > > > > confusion between the theosophical movement and any Rites 
> and 
> > > > > Ritualisms,
> > > > > masonic or otherwise.
> > > > > 
> > > > > These are two quite different movements..." 
> > > > > 
> > > > > As said above about to know real Meaning of Freemasonry. 
> They 
> > > are 
> > > > > not as different as you may think (in Spirit). And I don't 
> share 
> > > > > your opinion on nether rituals, or your opinion on what 
> > > Theosophy is 
> > > > > saying about it. The problem is that Masonry, as HBP said, 
> > > soulless 
> > > > > without the Philosophy of the East, but still it the last 
> > > reaming 
> > > > > part of the Western Mystery Schools. One most see masonry as 
> it 
> > > > > really is, and what is it origin. And very, very few Masons 
> know 
> > > > > this today. (And the second thing is that the church (and 
> more 
> > > the 
> > > > > protestant, then the catholic) partly has done great harm on 
> > > > > Freemasonry.) This got very clear for me, with the help of 
> > > > > Theosophy. Freemasonry has no occult secrets any more, but 
> still 
> > > > > some secrets, those one find in every true Brothers heart. 
> And 
> > > the 
> > > > > Freemasons are the Guardians of a Tradition, the Western 
> > > Initiatoric 
> > > > > Tradition of the ancient Mystery School. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > And, Carlos, don forget. That to study Western Freemasonry 
> is 
> > > > > obligatory for every student in a Mystery School in the 
> East, 
> > > and 
> > > > > for every Chela.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Best regards,
> > > > > 
> > > > > Carl
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
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