Re:[Spam] Theos-World Re: JESUITS & VATICAN
Nov 06, 2006 06:20 AM
by carlosaveline
Carl,
1) This is obvious and I have said approximately the same here.
2) Not being a member of the Opus Dei or the Soc. of Jesus, and not being too much interested in them, either, I can't know too much about that. Yet one can sense Opus Dei methods are what they are.
3) I believe that what the HPB and the Masters had to say about the Jesuits was and is extremely clear for everyone who wants to see it. At the same time, many Jesuits did good things -- to each rule there are many exceptions, as the Masters wrote.
Last but not least, the Mahatma Letters contain a treasure of hints on all kinds of things related to Esoteric Philosophy and Theosophy as a day to day learning and probationary process.
Regards, Carlos.
De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Cópia:
Data:Mon, 06 Nov 2006 13:57:24 -0000
Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World Re: JESUITS & VATICAN
> Carlos,
>
> 1) The fact that SJ, has been closed shows that SJ and the
> Vatican, not "always" had been on friendly foot with one another.
> And the Vatican and SJ, are today in a big conflict, partly because
> JP2 preferred the Opus Dei.
> 2) I know that the "Theology of Liberation" is more of
> Franciscans, and even more an OMI thing. I don't totally agree with
> you that "the classical task of Jesuits has been widely taken over
> by the 'Opus Dei" and not that "Opus Dei' is the new version of the
> classical Jesuits". Only that the Opus Dei has taken over al the
> negative and "nasty" parts. SJ has an "esoteric" base in their
> belief; the Opus Dei is fundamentalistic Roman Catholics. But that
> we can leave.
> 3) I don't study writings of HPB and Masters as historical
> literature, but hence they contain esoteric knowledge and wisdom.
> But I know very well what they are saying about the Jesuits. I agree
> with them, but still, the SJ are very much misunderstood. Often,
> even by Theosophists, it is missed their real inner, black magical
> and "occult", spirit; that are the "Dugpas" of Christianity.
> Cesarism was supported by SJ, but hardly not so much more today.
>
> Carl
>
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline"
> wrote:
> >
> > Carl,
> >
> > 1) The OFFICIAL closing of the Jesuits only happened for some
> time. They had abused too much; they were involved, for instance, in
> killing Portugal's king. They had to be stopped, at least in part.
> >
> > 2) The recent "Theology of Liberation" is more of Franciscans, and
> Latin Americans. True, some Jesuits supported and still support
> it. But, please, take into consideration the public fact that in
> the 20th century the classical task of Jesuits has been widely taken
> over by the 'Opus Dei'. This is obvious and public today and has
> been so since the 1960s, say. 'Opus Dei' is the new version of the
> classical Jesuits. Same methods, same 'personal loyalty to the
> Pope', etc.
> >
> > 3) If you study HPB and the Mahatma Letters, you will see the
> Jesuits were the great allies to the Pope up to the 19th century.
> They are historically linked to the very idea that the Popes are to
> be seen as "absolute monarchs" -- of course, with the help of their
> secret police and 'intelligence agency',the Jesuits... This is
> well documented...
> >
> > By the way, we have had long and fruitful discussions here on
> Vatican, Jesuits and Opus Dei, earlier in 2006.
> >
> >
> > Regards, Carlos.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Cópia:
> >
> > Data:Mon, 06 Nov 2006 04:24:35 -0000
> >
> > Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World Re: CARL AND CEREMONIALISM
> >
> > > Carlos,
> > >
> > > You say:
> > > "The Jesuits have almost always been most influential
> (and 'loyal')
> > > as to the Popes."
> > >
> > > I say; not true.
> > >
> > > "The Suppression of the Jesuits in Portugal, France, the Two
> > > Sicilies, Parma and the Spanish Empire by 1767 was troubling to
> the
> > > Society's defender, Pope Clement XIII. Following a decree signed
> by
> > > Pope Clement XIV under secular pressure in July 1773, the
> Jesuits
> > > were suppressed in all countries except Russia, where Catherine
> the
> > > Great had forbidden the papal decree to be promulgated. Because
> > > millions of Catholics (including many Jesuits) lived in the
> Polish
> > > western provinces of the Russian Empire, the Society was able to
> > > maintain its legal existence and carry on its work all through
> the
> > > period of suppression."
> > > From"
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuits
> > > See further:
> > > http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14086a.htm
> > > http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14099a.htm
> > > http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14081a.htm
> > > http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14096a.htm
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppression_of_the_Jesuits
> > >
> > > "Jesuits have had significant influence in the development of
> > > liberation theology, a movement which has been highly
> controversial
> > > in the Catholic theological community and condemned by Pope John
> > > Paul II on several fundamental aspects."
> > >
> > > From:
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuits
> > >
> > >
> > > "In April 2005, Thomas J. Reese, SJ, editor of the American
> Jesuit
> > > weekly magazine America, resigned at the request of the Society.
> The
> > > move was widely published in the media as the result of pressure
> > > from the Vatican, following years of criticism by the
> Congregation
> > > for the Doctrine of the Faith on articles touching subjects such
> as
> > > HIV/AIDS, religious pluralism, homosexuality and the right of
> life
> > > for the unborn. Reese is currently on a year-long sabbatical at
> > > Santa Clara University.
> > >
> > > On February 2, 2006, Fr. Peter Hans Kolvenbach, informed members
> of
> > > the Society of Jesus, that with the consent of Pope Benedict
> XVI, he
> > > intends to step down as Superior General in 2008, the year he
> will
> > > turn 80. The 35th General Congregation of the Society of Jesus
> that
> > > will elect a new superior general, and decide other important
> policy
> > > for the Jesuit order in the years to come, will convene on 5
> January
> > > 2008, in Rome."
> > >
> > > From:
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuits
> > >
> > >
> > > "The Jesuits have frequently been described by their enemies
> (both
> > > Catholic and Protestant) as engaged in various conspiracies. The
> > > Monita secreta, published 1614 in Kraków, allegedly written by
> > > Claudio Acquaviva, in reality by Jerome Zahorowski, were
> fabricated
> > > to expose such a conspiracy. They have also been accused of
> using
> > > casuistry to obtain justifications for the unjustifiable. In
> several
> > > languages, "Jesuit" or "Jesuitical" therefore acquired a
> secondary
> > > meaning of "devious." The Jesuits have also been targeted by
> many
> > > anti-Catholics like Jack Chick, Avro Manhattan, and Alberto
> Rivera.
> > > Among other things they point to the text of an extreme oath
> > > allegedly taken by advanced members of the order, which can be
> > > construed to justify any action including infiltration of other
> > > faiths as legitimate in the name of the "greater good." The
> Jesuits
> > > have been accused of murdering Popes and presidents, causing
> wars,
> > > and toppling governments. There is also a claim common among
> many
> > > anti-Catholics that the Jesuit Superior General rules the
> Vatican
> > > behind the scenes.
> > >
> > > Within the Catholic Church, some Jesuits are criticized by some
> > > parties for being overly liberal and deviating substantially
> from
> > > official Church teaching and papal directives, especially on
> such
> > > issues as abortion, priestly celibacy, homosexuality, and
> liberation
> > > theology.[13] Pope Benedict XVI, like his predecessor John Paul
> II,
> > > has been particularly critical of the order.[14] Indeed, it is
> not
> > > unusual, especially in more conservative Catholic outlets, to
> hear
> > > calls for the outright abolishment of the Jesuit order. Thus,
> some
> > > may argue that the future influence of the Jesuits in the
> Catholic
> > > community, and perhaps their very existence, remains uncertain,
> > > while others may note that the Jesuit Order is well established
> in
> > > the Church and the communities where they intervene."
> > >
> > > From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuits#Controversies
> > >
> > > See further:
> > > http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?
> > >
> xml=/news/2005/05/08/wjes08.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/05/08/ixworld.html
> > > http://www.cwnews.com/offtherecord/offtherecord.cfm?
> > > task=singledisplay&recnum=2627
> > > http://www.nationalreview.com/kurtz/kurtz031302.asp
> > > http://www.nationalreview.com/kurtz/kurtz031302.asp
> > > http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives/081100/081100e.htm
> > > http://www.sspx.ca/Angelus/1984_November/Pope_Jesuits.htm
> > > http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/pope/obit/theo_authority.shtml
> > >
> > > In a review of "The Pope and the Jesuits" by James Hitchcock by
> > > Father Philip M. Stark we read:
> > > "The outline of the book is simple. After a brief glance, we see
> > > Pope John Paul II putting his own representative (an Italian
> Jesuit)
> > > at the head of the Order until a new superior general can be
> elected
> > > to replace the permanently incapacitated Father Pedro Arrupe.
> There
> > > was great indignation in the ranks when this happened, I well
> > > remember. I also remember thinking how ironic it was that
> resentment
> > > should be directed at a Pope who was worried enough about the
> > > activities of the Order to intervene in its government?the very
> > > Order founded to give unquestioning obedience to the Holy See.
> It
> > > seemed like treason to think it, but I thought it: the Jesuits
> have
> > > lost sight of the reason for their existence. Professor
> Hitchcock
> > > has now confirmed that impression for me."
> > > From: http://www.sspx.ca/Angelus/1984_November/Pope_Jesuits.htm
> > > "I must add, as a parenthesis, that reading this painful record
> of
> > > the trouble the Jesuits are giving poor Pope John Paul has given
> me
> > > a new respect for him."
> > >
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline"
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Carl,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > You say:
> > > >
> > > > " I can see that you are not a Mason, and therefore you have a
> > > good
> > > > reason to not know real Meaning of Freemasonry."
> > > >
> > > > I say:
> > > >
> > > > "I am not. But about it I know for a fact more than I feel at
> > > ease to write about in Theos-talk; so please do not jump to
> final
> > > conclusions."
> > > >
> > > > You say:
> > > >
> > > > "I know HPB said that Freemasonry was infiltrated by the
> Jesuits,
> > > but this has nothing to do with the Vatican, hence the Vatican
> and
> > > Jesuits often don't like one another."
> > > >
> > > > I say:
> > > >
> > > > "Not true. The Jesuits have almost always been most
> influential
> > > (and 'loyal') as to the Popes. They have worked as the Popes'
> CIA
> > > or 'M.I. 5', say. HPB wrote about that. Anyway, the true fact
> > > remains that the Masonry has been utterly infiltrated by its
> > > enemies; and by HPB's enemies; although individual Masons,
> > > including some influential ones, were real Occultists amid the
> bad
> > > stuff; id est, the exception to the rule. "
> > > >
> > > > As to living in a "Catholic" country -- again this is jumping
> and
> > > personalizing conclusions.
> > > >
> > > > In order to illustrate that, I will tell you that I was never
> > > baptized in any Church, Christian or otherwise, in this
> lifetime,
> > > which is more than many people can say about their ' original
> non-
> > > churchianity'. And never believed in any Christian "God", too.
> > > >
> > > > Try to think impersonally, please. Personalistic projections
> end
> > > up by making the game of you-know-whom (lower level
> elementals) .
> > > >
> > > > I see you as a sincere truth-seeker and I respect you for
> that.
> > > >
> > > > We are exchanging views. Neither of us is the truth-owner, I
> > > guess, on any subject. We are searching for a better
> understanding
> > > of life.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Carlos.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > >
> > > > Cópia:
> > > >
> > > > Data:Sat, 04 Nov 2006 16:36:12 -0000
> > > >
> > > > Assunto:Theos-World Re: CEREMONIALISM and HPB
> > > >
> > > > > Carlos,
> > > > >
> > > > > I can see that you are not a Mason, and therefore you have a
> > > good
> > > > > reason to not know real Meaning of Freemasonry.
> > > > >
> > > > > Second, please, stop talk about Leadbeater in these matters.
> He
> > > has
> > > > > nothing to do in a serious discussion.
> > > > >
> > > > > And further. You writ; "the Masonry was so heavily and
> > > > > freely infiltrated by the Vatican Jesuits centuries ago, as
> you
> > > > > certainly know
> > > > > HPB says." I know she said that Freemasonry infiltrated by
> the
> > > > > Jesuits, but this has nothing to do with the Vatican, hence
> the
> > > > > Vatican and Jesuits often don't like one another. To
> > > say "heavily
> > > > > and freely" is to over react. There is only one
> know "Jesuit"
> > > (he
> > > > > was not even a real Jesuit, but something similar to a
> tertiary
> > > > > member, even if SJ don't have that officially), that have
> made a
> > > > > carrier in Masonry, and that was Magister Johann August
> Starck,
> > > > > active mason ca. 1750-70. This connection Jesuits ?
> Freemason is
> > > > > untrue, as the Nazis Freemasons ? Jews is untrue. That is al
> > > based,
> > > > > and with its routs, in Anti-Masonry (from low-church
> > > protestants, in
> > > > > the US).
> > > > >
> > > > > Carlos, I think you are mixing things up. This could be
> hence
> > > you
> > > > > are from a Catholic country, but no I'm only guessing.
> Ritual
> > > and
> > > > > ritual is not always the same thing.
> > > > >
> > > > > You wrote; "Jesus, Buddha and Lao Tzu -- 2,500 years ago --
> were
> > > > > already critical of their time ritualisms and sacerdotal
> > > > > hierarchies. So this thing is not 'entirely new'." On this
> is my
> > > > > comment that one find, what one is looking for.
> > > > >
> > > > > And: "Still, I did not see HPB writing about ritualism, or
> > > defending
> > > > > it as a practice
> > > > > for theosophists. Did you?" And still she wrote several
> rituals
> > > here
> > > > > self, fore the use in the ES, and let Olcott write rituals
> for
> > > TS.
> > > > >
> > > > > And: "I am generally friendly toward Masons, but I do not
> think
> > > > > there should be any
> > > > > confusion between the theosophical movement and any Rites
> and
> > > > > Ritualisms,
> > > > > masonic or otherwise.
> > > > >
> > > > > These are two quite different movements..."
> > > > >
> > > > > As said above about to know real Meaning of Freemasonry.
> They
> > > are
> > > > > not as different as you may think (in Spirit). And I don't
> share
> > > > > your opinion on nether rituals, or your opinion on what
> > > Theosophy is
> > > > > saying about it. The problem is that Masonry, as HBP said,
> > > soulless
> > > > > without the Philosophy of the East, but still it the last
> > > reaming
> > > > > part of the Western Mystery Schools. One most see masonry as
> it
> > > > > really is, and what is it origin. And very, very few Masons
> know
> > > > > this today. (And the second thing is that the church (and
> more
> > > the
> > > > > protestant, then the catholic) partly has done great harm on
> > > > > Freemasonry.) This got very clear for me, with the help of
> > > > > Theosophy. Freemasonry has no occult secrets any more, but
> still
> > > > > some secrets, those one find in every true Brothers heart.
> And
> > > the
> > > > > Freemasons are the Guardians of a Tradition, the Western
> > > Initiatoric
> > > > > Tradition of the ancient Mystery School.
> > > > >
> > > > > And, Carlos, don forget. That to study Western Freemasonry
> is
> > > > > obligatory for every student in a Mystery School in the
> East,
> > > and
> > > > > for every Chela.
> > > > >
> > > > > Best regards,
> > > > >
> > > > > Carl
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
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