Theos-Talk Archives (November 2006 Message tt00344)

Carl,

1) The OFFICIAL closing of the Jesuits only happened for some time. They had abused too much; they were involved, for instance, in killing Portugal's king. They had to be stopped, at least in part.   

2) The recent "Theology of Liberation" is more of Franciscans, and Latin Americans.  True, some Jesuits supported and still support it.  But, please, take into consideration the public fact that in the 20th century the classical task of Jesuits has been widely taken over by the 'Opus Dei'.  This is obvious and public today and has been so since the 1960s, say.   'Opus Dei' is the new version of the classical Jesuits. Same methods, same 'personal  loyalty to the Pope', etc.

3) If you study HPB and the Mahatma Letters, you will see the Jesuits were the great allies to the Pope up to the 19th century.  They are historically linked to the very  idea that the Popes are to be seen as "absolute monarchs" -- of course, with the help of their secret police and 'intelligence agency',the  Jesuits...  This is well documented...

By the way, we have had long and fruitful discussions here on Vatican, Jesuits and Opus Dei, earlier in 2006.  


Regards,  Carlos. 





De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Cópia:

Data:Mon, 06 Nov 2006 04:24:35 -0000

Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World Re: CARL AND CEREMONIALISM

> Carlos,
> 
> You say:
> "The Jesuits have almost always been most influential (and 'loyal') 
> as to the Popes."
> 
> I say; not true.
> 
> "The Suppression of the Jesuits in Portugal, France, the Two 
> Sicilies, Parma and the Spanish Empire by 1767 was troubling to the 
> Society's defender, Pope Clement XIII. Following a decree signed by 
> Pope Clement XIV under secular pressure in July 1773, the Jesuits 
> were suppressed in all countries except Russia, where Catherine the 
> Great had forbidden the papal decree to be promulgated. Because 
> millions of Catholics (including many Jesuits) lived in the Polish 
> western provinces of the Russian Empire, the Society was able to 
> maintain its legal existence and carry on its work all through the 
> period of suppression."
> From" 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuits
> See further:
> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14086a.htm
> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14099a.htm
> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14081a.htm
> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14096a.htm
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppression_of_the_Jesuits
> 
> "Jesuits have had significant influence in the development of 
> liberation theology, a movement which has been highly controversial 
> in the Catholic theological community and condemned by Pope John 
> Paul II on several fundamental aspects."
> 
> From: 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuits
> 
> 
> "In April 2005, Thomas J. Reese, SJ, editor of the American Jesuit 
> weekly magazine America, resigned at the request of the Society. The 
> move was widely published in the media as the result of pressure 
> from the Vatican, following years of criticism by the Congregation 
> for the Doctrine of the Faith on articles touching subjects such as 
> HIV/AIDS, religious pluralism, homosexuality and the right of life 
> for the unborn. Reese is currently on a year-long sabbatical at 
> Santa Clara University.
> 
> On February 2, 2006, Fr. Peter Hans Kolvenbach, informed members of 
> the Society of Jesus, that with the consent of Pope Benedict XVI, he 
> intends to step down as Superior General in 2008, the year he will 
> turn 80. The 35th General Congregation of the Society of Jesus that 
> will elect a new superior general, and decide other important policy 
> for the Jesuit order in the years to come, will convene on 5 January 
> 2008, in Rome."
> 
> From: 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuits
> 
> 
> "The Jesuits have frequently been described by their enemies (both 
> Catholic and Protestant) as engaged in various conspiracies. The 
> Monita secreta, published 1614 in Kraków, allegedly written by 
> Claudio Acquaviva, in reality by Jerome Zahorowski, were fabricated 
> to expose such a conspiracy. They have also been accused of using 
> casuistry to obtain justifications for the unjustifiable. In several 
> languages, "Jesuit" or "Jesuitical" therefore acquired a secondary 
> meaning of "devious." The Jesuits have also been targeted by many 
> anti-Catholics like Jack Chick, Avro Manhattan, and Alberto Rivera. 
> Among other things they point to the text of an extreme oath 
> allegedly taken by advanced members of the order, which can be 
> construed to justify any action including infiltration of other 
> faiths as legitimate in the name of the "greater good." The Jesuits 
> have been accused of murdering Popes and presidents, causing wars, 
> and toppling governments. There is also a claim common among many 
> anti-Catholics that the Jesuit Superior General rules the Vatican 
> behind the scenes.
> 
> Within the Catholic Church, some Jesuits are criticized by some 
> parties for being overly liberal and deviating substantially from 
> official Church teaching and papal directives, especially on such 
> issues as abortion, priestly celibacy, homosexuality, and liberation 
> theology.[13] Pope Benedict XVI, like his predecessor John Paul II, 
> has been particularly critical of the order.[14] Indeed, it is not 
> unusual, especially in more conservative Catholic outlets, to hear 
> calls for the outright abolishment of the Jesuit order. Thus, some 
> may argue that the future influence of the Jesuits in the Catholic 
> community, and perhaps their very existence, remains uncertain, 
> while others may note that the Jesuit Order is well established in 
> the Church and the communities where they intervene."
> 
> From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuits#Controversies
> 
> See further:
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?
> xml=/news/2005/05/08/wjes08.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/05/08/ixworld.html
> http://www.cwnews.com/offtherecord/offtherecord.cfm?
> task=singledisplay&recnum=2627
> http://www.nationalreview.com/kurtz/kurtz031302.asp
> http://www.nationalreview.com/kurtz/kurtz031302.asp
> http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives/081100/081100e.htm
> http://www.sspx.ca/Angelus/1984_November/Pope_Jesuits.htm
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/pope/obit/theo_authority.shtml
> 
> In a review of "The Pope and the Jesuits" by James Hitchcock by 
> Father Philip M. Stark we read:
> "The outline of the book is simple. After a brief glance, we see 
> Pope John Paul II putting his own representative (an Italian Jesuit) 
> at the head of the Order until a new superior general can be elected 
> to replace the permanently incapacitated Father Pedro Arrupe. There 
> was great indignation in the ranks when this happened, I well 
> remember. I also remember thinking how ironic it was that resentment 
> should be directed at a Pope who was worried enough about the 
> activities of the Order to intervene in its government?the very 
> Order founded to give unquestioning obedience to the Holy See. It 
> seemed like treason to think it, but I thought it: the Jesuits have 
> lost sight of the reason for their existence. Professor Hitchcock 
> has now confirmed that impression for me."
> From: http://www.sspx.ca/Angelus/1984_November/Pope_Jesuits.htm
> "I must add, as a parenthesis, that reading this painful record of 
> the trouble the Jesuits are giving poor Pope John Paul has given me 
> a new respect for him."
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> wrote:
> >
> > Carl,
> > 
> > 
> > You say: 
> > 
> > " I can see that you are not a Mason, and therefore you have a 
> good 
> > reason to not know real Meaning of Freemasonry."
> > 
> > I say:
> > 
> > "I am not. But about it I know for a fact more than I feel at 
> ease to write about in Theos-talk; so please do not jump to final 
> conclusions."
> > 
> > You say: 
> > 
> > "I know HPB said that Freemasonry was infiltrated by the Jesuits, 
> but this has nothing to do with the Vatican, hence the Vatican and 
> Jesuits often don't like one another." 
> > 
> > I say:
> > 
> > "Not true. The Jesuits have almost always been most influential 
> (and 'loyal') as to the Popes. They have worked as the Popes' CIA 
> or 'M.I. 5', say. HPB wrote about that. Anyway, the true fact 
> remains that the Masonry has been utterly infiltrated by its 
> enemies; and by HPB's enemies; although individual Masons, 
> including some influential ones, were real Occultists amid the bad 
> stuff; id est, the exception to the rule. "
> > 
> > As to living in a "Catholic" country -- again this is jumping and 
> personalizing conclusions. 
> > 
> > In order to illustrate that, I will tell you that I was never 
> baptized in any Church, Christian or otherwise, in this lifetime, 
> which is more than many people can say about their ' original non-
> churchianity'. And never believed in any Christian "God", too. 
> > 
> > Try to think impersonally, please. Personalistic projections end 
> up by making the game of you-know-whom (lower level elementals) . 
> > 
> > I see you as a sincere truth-seeker and I respect you for that. 
> > 
> > We are exchanging views. Neither of us is the truth-owner, I 
> guess, on any subject. We are searching for a better understanding 
> of life. 
> > 
> > 
> > Carlos. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Cópia:
> > 
> > Data:Sat, 04 Nov 2006 16:36:12 -0000
> > 
> > Assunto:Theos-World Re: CEREMONIALISM and HPB
> > 
> > > Carlos,
> > > 
> > > I can see that you are not a Mason, and therefore you have a 
> good 
> > > reason to not know real Meaning of Freemasonry.
> > > 
> > > Second, please, stop talk about Leadbeater in these matters. He 
> has 
> > > nothing to do in a serious discussion. 
> > > 
> > > And further. You writ; "the Masonry was so heavily and
> > > freely infiltrated by the Vatican Jesuits centuries ago, as you 
> > > certainly know
> > > HPB says." I know she said that Freemasonry infiltrated by the 
> > > Jesuits, but this has nothing to do with the Vatican, hence the 
> > > Vatican and Jesuits often don't like one another. To 
> say "heavily 
> > > and freely" is to over react. There is only one know "Jesuit" 
> (he 
> > > was not even a real Jesuit, but something similar to a tertiary 
> > > member, even if SJ don't have that officially), that have made a 
> > > carrier in Masonry, and that was Magister Johann August Starck, 
> > > active mason ca. 1750-70. This connection Jesuits ? Freemason is 
> > > untrue, as the Nazis Freemasons ? Jews is untrue. That is al 
> based, 
> > > and with its routs, in Anti-Masonry (from low-church 
> protestants, in 
> > > the US). 
> > > 
> > > Carlos, I think you are mixing things up. This could be hence 
> you 
> > > are from a Catholic country, but no I'm only guessing. Ritual 
> and 
> > > ritual is not always the same thing.
> > > 
> > > You wrote; "Jesus, Buddha and Lao Tzu -- 2,500 years ago -- were 
> > > already critical of their time ritualisms and sacerdotal 
> > > hierarchies. So this thing is not 'entirely new'." On this is my 
> > > comment that one find, what one is looking for.
> > > 
> > > And: "Still, I did not see HPB writing about ritualism, or 
> defending 
> > > it as a practice
> > > for theosophists. Did you?" And still she wrote several rituals 
> here 
> > > self, fore the use in the ES, and let Olcott write rituals for 
> TS. 
> > > 
> > > And: "I am generally friendly toward Masons, but I do not think 
> > > there should be any
> > > confusion between the theosophical movement and any Rites and 
> > > Ritualisms,
> > > masonic or otherwise.
> > > 
> > > These are two quite different movements..." 
> > > 
> > > As said above about to know real Meaning of Freemasonry. They 
> are 
> > > not as different as you may think (in Spirit). And I don't share 
> > > your opinion on nether rituals, or your opinion on what 
> Theosophy is 
> > > saying about it. The problem is that Masonry, as HBP said, 
> soulless 
> > > without the Philosophy of the East, but still it the last 
> reaming 
> > > part of the Western Mystery Schools. One most see masonry as it 
> > > really is, and what is it origin. And very, very few Masons know 
> > > this today. (And the second thing is that the church (and more 
> the 
> > > protestant, then the catholic) partly has done great harm on 
> > > Freemasonry.) This got very clear for me, with the help of 
> > > Theosophy. Freemasonry has no occult secrets any more, but still 
> > > some secrets, those one find in every true Brothers heart. And 
> the 
> > > Freemasons are the Guardians of a Tradition, the Western 
> Initiatoric 
> > > Tradition of the ancient Mystery School. 
> > > 
> > > And, Carlos, don forget. That to study Western Freemasonry is 
> > > obligatory for every student in a Mystery School in the East, 
> and 
> > > for every Chela.
> > > 
> > > Best regards,
> > > 
> > > Carl
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra.
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> > > 
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> > 
> > 
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> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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