Theos-Talk Archives (November 2006 Message tt00301)

Carl, 

Thanks. 

The idea of  HSO and HPB being 'honorary members' of mason-like organizations came earlier,  not from you, but from Dr. Tillett, with whom you agreed in that. 

Now I see you also claim her to have been more than that. 

The idea of HPB being an active member, let alone "head",of any mason-like
organization in her lifetime as Helena has yet to be demonstrated by you, as long as Theosophical Sources are concerned.  You have more than 20 volumes written by HPB to show any evidence about that. Plus Olcott, Damodar, etc. 

Could you find any theosophical statement about her being an active member of any "masonic organization" in the 19th century? 

In the 1880s, she was showing masonry to be widely a Jesuitic tool! (Save individual exceptions of course. And she had a general respect for Masonry in spite of that: the theosophical movement also had infiltration problems...) 


Regards,  Carlos. 


De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Cópia:

Data:Sat, 04 Nov 2006 15:13:41 -0000

Assunto:Theos-World Re: HPB and Sat B'hai

> Carlos,
> 
> How could you talk about HPB and Freemasonry, and her view on it 
> without having read this text!? I have never said anything about 
> any "revolutionary statement". You are the one that make 
> revolutionary thing buy chancing the Constitution of Sat Bhai 
> (without being a member, and not even a mason), by saying that there 
> were honorary members. This is not true.
> 
> And to be an honorary member, don't have to mean that that person 
> necessarily have to be inactive (example; the honorary members of 
> The Royal Society, or the honorary members of the early TS).
> 
> Read the text and tell us tomorrow, if you still believe that HBP 
> was negative, or what you now think, to Freemasonry. And there are 
> some interesting tings about HBP's personal connections with 
> Freemasonry, and I have already given you two quotes here in a 
> previous posting. 
> 
> Carl
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> wrote:
> >
> > Carl, 
> > 
> > 
> > Tell us what is said there. Is it worthwile looking for it? I'm 
> not at home.
> > 
> > If you have such a revolutionary statement, you could kindly help 
> us bibliographically. 
> > 
> > Carlos. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Cópia:
> > 
> > Data:Sat, 04 Nov 2006 13:28:13 -0000
> > 
> > Assunto:Theos-World Re: HPB and Sat B'hai
> > 
> > > Again read: HPB on Freemasonry see "HPB Speaks, vol. I, chapter 
> VII, 
> > > pp. 27-36".
> > > 
> > > Carl
> > > 
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Carl, Tillett, Friends, 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Thanks.
> > > > 
> > > > OK. 
> > > > 
> > > > So HPB was an "honorary member" of the Sat Bhai, and this, as 
> > > early as 1877.
> > > > 
> > > > Honorary member is no active member; it means that a homage 
> was 
> > > made to her. 
> > > > 
> > > > Not the only one -- as she had a diploma from "Adoption 
> Masonry", 
> > > too. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Honorary titles.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Best regards, Carlos. 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > 
> > > > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > 
> > > > Cópia:
> > > > 
> > > > Data:Sat, 4 Nov 2006 07:12:20 +1100 (EST)
> > > > 
> > > > Assunto:Theos-World HPB and Sat B'hai
> > > > 
> > > > > In April, 1878, HPB and Colonel Olcott discussed this 
> > > possibility, and
> > > > > concluded that it would serve to restore "the vital element 
> of 
> > > Oriental
> > > > > Mysticism" to the higher degrees. But there were objections 
> from 
> > > Indian
> > > > > members of the TS, and the scheme was abandoned. However, 
> both 
> > > HPB and
> > > > > Olcott were made Honorary Members of the Sat B'hai, on 
> August 9, 
> > > 1877. 
> > > > > HPB was made a member of the sixth degree, level one, Arch 
> > > Auditor; the
> > > > > name of this degree and level was Rad, and, like the fifth 
> and 
> > > seventh
> > > > > degrees, was open both non-Masons and to women. HSO was made 
> a 
> > > member of
> > > > > the second degree, sixth level. Arch Courier; the name of 
> this 
> > > degree was
> > > > > Garuda, and it was open only to Master Masons (as was the 
> first 
> > > degree). 
> > > > > In Sat B'hai the first degree was the highest, and the 
> seventh 
> > > the lowest.
> > > > > 
> > > > > The Royal Oriental Order of Sikha (Apex) and the Sat B'hai 
> seems 
> > > to have
> > > > > been founded by an Anglo-Indian, Captain James Henry 
> Lawrence 
> > > Archer of
> > > > > the Indian Army, but the organization of the Order was 
> largely 
> > > of the work
> > > > > of Kenneth Robert Henderson Mackenzie (1833-86), author of 
> > > the "Royal
> > > > > Masonic Cyclopaedia" (1877), and a member of the TS. The 
> first 
> > > public
> > > > > statements about the Order appeared in correspondence 
> in "The 
> > > Freemason"
> > > > > in early 1871, however although great claims were made for 
> its 
> > > antiquity
> > > > > and importance, and despite Mackenzie's efforts to establish 
> it 
> > > as a
> > > > > working organization, it does not seem to have moved much 
> beyond 
> > > being a
> > > > > plan. By January, 1879, Mackenzie had concluded that the 
> Order 
> > > had
> > > > > finished.
> > > > > 
> > > > > The Sat B'hai was never adopted for use within the TS.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Information on the membership of HPB and HSO in Sat B'hai 
> comes 
> > > from the
> > > > > archives of the Order which were (and, I believe, still are) 
> in 
> > > the Yarker
> > > > > archives in London, where I had access to them.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Dr Gregory Tillett
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente 
> Terra.
> > > > > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite
> > > > > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?
> > > 
> +_u=carlosaveline&_l=1,1162584750.900794.6252.balcomo.hst.terra.com.b
> > > r,5563,Des15,Des15
> > > > > 
> > > > > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra.
> > > > > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 03/11/2006 / 
> > > Versão: 4.4.00/4888
> > > > > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra.
> > > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite
> > > http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?
> +_u=carlosaveline&_l=1,1162647256.104601.9272.vacoas.hst.terra.com.br
> ,6907,Des15,Des15
> > > 
> > > Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra.
> > > Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 03/11/2006 / 
> Versão: 4.4.00/4888
> > > Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra.
> Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite
> http://mail.terra.com.br/protected_email/imail/imail.cgi?+_u=carlosaveline&_l=1,1162653345.593187.6977.morondava.hst.terra.com.br,9561,Des15,Des15
> 
> Esta mensagem foi verificada pelo E-mail Protegido Terra.
> Scan engine: McAfee VirusScan / Atualizado em 03/11/2006 / Versão: 4.4.00/4888
> Proteja o seu e-mail Terra: http://mail.terra.com.br/
> 


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]