Theos-Talk Archives (November 2006 Message tt00214)

Ken, Konstantin, Friends, 


Thanks al lot to Ken.  Konstantin will see later why his name has been put here at the beginning. 


I will try to answer in numbered items.

1) Ken says " ULT associates apparently will not read Barborka's 'Divine Plan' which is pure HPB ", etc.   I guess, Ken, we can leave people to read what they prefer.  And --  if we allow our different groups to be imperfect, to be limited, to be in-the-learning-process, and we try to cooperate better to build a more open environment, everyone will gain by that, and all limitations will tend to be at least partially corrected.  I am sure some limitations could be pointed out by ULT associates with regards to other Blavatksy groups and institutions but that agenda, I guess, is useless and harmful, especially if its importance gets exaggerated. In the absence of a calm and authentic common good will, there is no point in mutual criticisms because it will but open way to 'indoor enemies' -- elementals, perhaps elementaries and more. Fingerpointing should be silently directed to ourselves and  our own groups unless there is a solid sense of common good will. We should start working for that good will.

2)  The world situation, the challenges facing us, the contents of Esoteric Philosophy and the buddhic activity in our minds should make us get above and ahead from mutual fingerpointing among Blavatsky students. Otherwise 
-- we will get to a situation in which we might  have "more accurate opinions" than our Leadbeaterian friends, but our part of the movement will show the same lack of higher vitality, narrow criticism, etc.  The matter of the fact is that -- if we can feel our responsbility over the whole of the movement, now 90 per cent still Leadbeaterian-involved  -- we will be able to do better than keeping  separate and dedicating part of our time to mutual frustration.  


3)  The same "general forgiveness" or more precisely "permission to be imperfect" should hold true with regard to Adyar -- with the exception of the unacceptable ritualistic devices called Masonry, E.R., etc.;  and that implies helping  more Adyar friends getting rid of Leadbeater/Besant literature, or seeing its limitations.   Having hundreds of Adyar people reading G. Barborka and HPB is good. It is excellent indeed. Yet as long as these friends cannnot creatively process and elaborate what happened with CWL/AB they will be always depending on the Leadbeaterian Maya,  and their efforts will be self-erasing, so to say.   That is true, in part, in my view, also of Geoffrey Farthing's efforts.   I have a strong admiration for Farthing, with whom I corresponded for many years,  and I believe he did a great job;  but each human generation has its dharma,  and its limits. 

4) As to the specific question of avoiding Barborka, I believe Barborka is perfectly OK in all of his books, yet I can see that the ULT  gives priority to studying HPB in her own words and books,  and I can allow  ULT associates to do that.  Speaking for me, perhaps I might disagree from Point Loma groups or Pasadena TS in this or that, too.  But this kind of thing is outside our common agenda.  We have more important things to do-- in cooperation. See an example in number 5. 

5) Perhaps you saw here one and two days ago the excellent and detailed report on theosophical activities in Russia and Ukraine given to us by Konstantin.  Being linked to Boris de Zirkoff, you are linked to one of the last strong links between Russia/Ukraine and the theosophical movement, in the early twentieth century.   Now, would you try to make contact with the 'HPB Center' en Ekaterinoslav, Ukraine, and with  theosophical groups in Russia (Moscow for instance), and help give them some deeper perspective of Theosophy?  They are open minded and decentralized as power-structures, they are open to new ideas, but they have, I guess, only Adyar's assistance so far.  Therefore you see that in Russia now you have more books published by Leadbeater than books by HPB, who was born there.  And this is not because they are "dominated by Adyar" and things like that.  It is because HPB groups have not been able to reach there.  I would like to have your commentaries about this specific issue.  You can write to me individual email if you prefer.  Whatever commentaries by Konstantin will be also most welcome.  Does he think people in Russia/Ukraine would receive well, or not welcome, other views of Theosophy, more in line with HPB? 


6) I believe any people who wants to understand the Adyar movement should get a copy of the well-documented book "The Elder Brother", a CWL's biography, and read enough of it to understand what is the real face of Mr. Leadbeater.  So far, Adyar leaders have produced nothing in defence of Leadbeater, after Tillett's book, and the reason for that is that against facts one cannot argue.  I am happy, Ken, you can provide copies of Tillett's book to Adyar people worldwide. 


Best regards,    Carlos. 

De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Cópia:

Data:Sat, 04 Nov 2006 07:33:08 -0000

Assunto:Theos-World Re: From 1923 to 2006

> Carlos -
> 
> I quite agree in general. However, there are 'minor blockages' that 
> I would hope the various Blavatsky linked groups should feel brave 
> enough to face and comfortable to communicate with each other. In 
> this area, while Daniel's 'presecuting attorney' style does not suit 
> all, I am glad that he places on public view alot that has been 
> swept under the carpet for so long. In this area the Tingley-Judge-
> Crosbie history has been covered MUCH too long and occasionally 
> produces negative results of uncooperative attitude betweenULT-Point 
> Loma or Pasadena today which I could describe: e.g. I have 
> discovered recently that ULT associates apparently will not read 
> Barborka's 'Divine Plan' which is pure HPB... this I still cannot 
> figure out....and part of this is a general avoidance of 
> the 'Mahatma Letters' and hence some serious 'lacunae' in 
> Theosophical philosophy like, as far as I know and anyone please 
> correct me if I am mis-informed, NOTHING written or discussed in ULT 
> regarding the teachings on the Outer Rounds ! see 'Divine Plan' 
> chapter on 'Outer Rounds' and also ML. Though admittedly a rather 
> esoteric subject it is in the Mahatma Letters and SD clear enough 
> and is truly a consciousness expanding wonderful teaching that 
> amplifies the understanding of the 'after death states' and our 
> integral unity with the Cosmos. It is ironic that Adyar members 
> studying HPB read a book that is passively avoided by ULT ! Anyhone 
> who would label 'The Divine Plan' as 'speclative' which I hear is 
> how it is dismissed, simply does not know how to think 
> Theosophically in my opinion !) Regarding Adyar - the what could be 
> called 'core group' of 'exiled' Point Loma individuals e.g. Small, 
> Plummer, Harris, deZirkoff, Barborka, Elsie Benjamin, Helen Todd and 
> others, felt that initiating another Theosophical Society -- an idea 
> they seriously discussed periodically (for example see also 
> Endersby's 'International Fraternity of Theosophists' of the late 
> 60's early 70's)was NOT necessary and working through and with 
> existing Theosophical groups, maintaining small study groups, 
> combined with publishing unavailable writings of Theosophic value, 
> with the primary focus on Adyar was the was to go. Hence, 
> deZirkoff's HPB Collected Writings being transferred from 
> independent and other publishers to Adyar/Wheaton, Barborka's work 
> published at Adyar etc. Gordon Plummers 'Mathematics of the Cosmic 
> Mind' and later his 'From Atom to Kosmos' published by TPH Wheaton 
> in the early 70's and the Theosophical manual on 'Reincarnation' by 
> Leoline Wright (who knew Judge) also published by Wheaton. The small 
> book on Judge by DeZirkoff and Sven Eek also at that time was 
> distributed by Wheaton. Judge's name as a founder and photo up at 
> Wheaton due to this influence. DeZirkoff visited Adyar at John Coats 
> invitation and even shared Point Loma 'Esoteric Teachings' at a 
> Winter Solstice gathering there hosted by (Bishop!)John Coats, who 
> really was a genuine Theosophist with the whole movement in 
> mind......etc. etc. Really there has been enormous transformation. 
> While it varies in different countries, Blavatsky is very much more 
> in the focus of Adyar now...! All this prior effort has continued 
> with books by Mills, Gomes, Caldwell, Farthing, Warcup, Hoskins, 
> Lancri, Humphreys,, Sri Krishna Prem etc. etc.......
> 
> Ken (Point Loma Publications www.wisdomtraditions.com)
> 
> PS - we were able to acquire a number of copies a few years ago of 
> Gregory Tillett's bio of CW Leadbeater ' Elder Brother '. From now 
> to the end of the year these will be on sale for 10 copies at $10 
> each or $15 for an individual hard cover copy plus postage.
> 
> 
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> wrote:
> >
> > Daniel,
> > 
> > This (see below) was thought to be important to be said in 1923. 
> It was during the Adyar Festival of Initiations. 
> > 
> > Everyone was talking to Christ and to the Maha-Chohan in Adyar. 
> Dozens of "high initiates", and some of them with sex scandals, 
> too. 
> > 
> > It was important, then, to show the difference between the part od 
> the movement which kept sober and parts of the movement. 
> > 
> > Nowadays, the historical context is different. 
> > 
> > There is no reason now, as I see it, to keep feeding old rivalries 
> between, for instance, Pasadena TS, Point Loma Groups and the ULT 
> people.
> > 
> > They have much more in common than otherwise. We are all brothers, 
> and none of us is perfect. 
> > 
> > As to the Adyar TS, its members should be fraternally helped, as 
> much as possible, to go beyond the Leadbeaterian Illusions. 
> > 
> > In the long run, the Adyar TS is a friend to be helped and which 
> will help us ("us" being Pasadena TS, ULT, Point Loma groups, etc.) 
> > 
> > I am sure you are not living in 1923, but open to the immense 
> positive possibilities that the 21st century opens to all sincere 
> theosophists. 
> > 
> > Regards, Carlos. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Cópia:
> > 
> > Data:Thu, 02 Nov 2006 19:14:58 -0000
> > 
> > Assunto:Theos-World Theosophy Company on Crosbie & Tingley
> > 
> > > In the 1923 edition of "The United Lodge of Theosophists: Its 
> Mission 
> > > and its Future" (published by the Theosophy Company, Los 
> Angeles, 
> > > California), the reader will find on page 7 the following 
> > > statements:
> > > 
> > > "On the death of Mr. Judge in 1896, Mr. Crosbie did what was 
> possible 
> > > to induce those most prominent in the T.S.A. to heed the dying 
> words 
> > > of Judge - 'There should be calmness. Hold fast; go slow.' But 
> the 
> > > same influences held sway as had produced all former wrong 
> courses. 
> > > Ambition and the desire to lead on the part of the few caused 
> Mrs. 
> > > Katherine Tingley to be heralded to the membership as 
> the 'successor' 
> > > of Mr. Judge, as Mrs. Besant had claimed to be the 'successor' 
> of 
> > > H.P.B. As ninety-eight per cent of the members accepted the 
> > > representations made, Mr. Crosbie could only go with the 
> majority if 
> > > he would not desert the work built up by the sacrifices of 
> H.P.B. and 
> > > Mr. Judge before him.
> > > 
> > > "Then ensued two painful years of rivalry - first between the 
> T.S.A., 
> > > under the leadership of Mrs. Tingley, and the Olcott-Besant 
> society; 
> > > then of violent dissentions between Mrs. Tingley and those who 
> had 
> > > been responsible for foisting her upon the confidence of the 
> members 
> > > of the T.S.A. This latter war of clashing ambitions and 
> pretensions 
> > > to apostolic authority, culminated in the Chicago convention in 
> > > February, 1898, where by the vote of more than ninety per cent 
> of the 
> > > delegates, the name of T.S.A. was changed to that of 'The 
> Universal 
> > > Brotherhood and Theosophical Society' and a new constitution 
> adopted 
> > > giving to Madame Tingley absolute autocratic control over all 
> the 
> > > activities of the society. A handful of the delegates - those 
> who 
> > > had originally vouched for Madame Tingley - 'bolted' the 
> > > Convention, and thereafter called themselves the T.S.A.
> > > 
> > > "Of all these events Mr. Crosbie was a witness and, as before, 
> found 
> > > no way open but to abide by the decision of the majority. For 
> the 
> > > ensuing six years he worked to the fullest extent possible to 
> keep 
> > > alive the spirit of fraternity and theosophical propagandum. By 
> 1904 
> > > the once strong membership had dwindled away under the lurid 
> > > management of Mrs. Tingley until there remained but a few 
> hundred out 
> > > of thousands Further efforts being useless, Mr. Crosbie left the 
> > > Tingley society and removed to Los Angeles, California."
> > > 
> > > In my next posting I will give Dr. H.N. Stokes' comments on the 
> above 
> > > statements. 
> > > 
> > > Daniel
> > > http://hpb.cc
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
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> 
> 
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> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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