Theos-Talk Archives (November 2006 Message tt00123)

Carlos,
I see your point, but I'm just following what my workbook is saying. 
And hence English is not my native language; I can, and do, 
mistakes. The colour of the word, you know.

Personally, I do believe Leadbeater (and Chakravarti) was in 
contract whit Mahatmas/Masters, those we also call the Brethren of 
the Shadow. 

Besant I only feel sorry for, hence I don't think she lied; she was 
fooled be the two persons mentioned above. 

Carl 

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
<carlosaveline@...> wrote:
>
> 
> Carl, 
> 
> HPB did not claim she was in contact with the Masters as one does 
not "claim" that the Sun uses to rise, or that it appears to rise 
everyday (from the viewpoint of a citizen in our planet).  
> 
> HPB said she had contact with Adepts as one says the Sun "rises" 
everyday.
> 
> Leadbeater claimed he was in contact with the Mahatmas.  
> 
> And Daniel Caldwell claims that "HPB might be a fraud".  He has 
been claiming that for a number of years, in case you do not know, 
Carl.  
> 
> Yet HPB students know better and say  that  HPB was NOT a fraud. 
> 
> 
> Regards,   Carlos. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Cópia:
> 
> Data:Thu, 02 Nov 2006 13:56:41 -0000
> 
> Assunto:Theos-World Re: MORE ON CLAIMS
> 
> > I remember Blavatsky was claiming a lot.
> > Claim is a neutral word. Its only mean that someone is saying 
that 
> > something is in a certain way, and word its self do not say if 
it is 
> > right or wrong. So Blavatsky claimed, and so did Judge, Crosbie, 
> > Besant, Leadbeater, Julius Cesar, Karl Marx, I do it and even 
> > Carlos. And we do it al the time. When we say that we believe 
that 
> > reincarnation is a fact in nature, we are actually claiming 
this. 
> > 
> > And about the national section of the Pasadena TS. In an e-mail, 
> > last week, from a European TS-fellow with regular contacts with 
the 
> > HQ in Pasadena it was written that the Finish Section was to be 
> > closed very soon. That makes nine sections. I see now that this 
> > section still is listed on Pasadena's webpage, but since there 
have 
> > been none activities in any form many years, I can see way it is 
to 
> > be closed. Sad, but the cold fact. 
> > 
> > Carl
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Friends,
> > > 
> > > I do not remember HPB "claiming" anything. Or Crosbie. Or the 
> > ULT. 
> > > 
> > > It was A. Besant who presented herself as an Adept -- HPB 
rarely 
> > or never stated that she was even a "Initiate". 
> > > 
> > > It was C.W. Leadbeater who claimed he had several initiations, 
> > visited Mars and Mercury and talked to "Mr.Christ" nearly every 
> > week. And this is in the Adyar literature -- with good sources! 
> > > 
> > > It was Besant and CWL who claimed Krishnamurti was the new 
> > Messiah, etc.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > It is the Coulombs who claimed HPB "claimed" this or that. It 
is 
> > the Coulomb and Soloviof publicizers who 'claim' that 
> > Crosbie 'claimed' this or that. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Regards, Carlos. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > 
> > > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > 
> > > Cópia:
> > > 
> > > Data:Thu, 02 Nov 2006 13:03:33 -0000
> > > 
> > > Assunto:Theos-World Re: To Carl (& maybe Carlos) --- R. 
Crosbie 
> > Acting UNDER THE DIRECTION of a Master??
> > > 
> > > > Thanks Daniel for this interesting posting.
> > > > 
> > > > Blavatsky claimed direct, and in no "cryptic ways, that she 
was 
> > an 
> > > > agent of the Masters, and acted on Their direct orders, both 
> > when 
> > > > she founded the TS in 1875, and when she founded the 
E.S.T.S. in 
> > > > 1888. She said this straight out. But with Crosbie it was 
> > something 
> > > > else. 
> > > > Crosbie was saying that some one was "one Witness" and "a 
> > Represent" 
> > > > of the Masters etc, but not that these one was him self. 
After 
> > his 
> > > > death, that ULT-people was claiming that this was Crosbie, 
but 
> > did 
> > > > he ever claimed that him self? I don't know, and answer is 
most 
> > > > probably hidden for the world in the archives of DES and 
> > Theosophy 
> > > > Company in Los Angeles. If not there is something in his 
> > writhing, 
> > > > that we have missed.
> > > > I'm just guessing now. Could there have been some one else? 
Was 
> > > > Crosbie alone? The fact that Crosbie was married, with a 
young 
> > child 
> > > > (as far as know, he only hade one daughter), was a direct 
> > > > disqualification for him, to be a Chela. Could he have been 
> > working 
> > > > together with a Chela? How knows? The fact that the official 
> > history 
> > > > of the ULT not is fully reliable does not make this easier. 
> > > > 
> > > > For some years ago, one group president of the DES told me 
that 
> > they 
> > > > (the DES) consider "H.P.B." as their "sole Head" (no talk 
there 
> > > > about any I.H. or O.H., and their highest officer was 
a "simple 
> > > > Secretary", his words not mine), and that this was the case 
when 
> > it 
> > > > was founded (1909) and that this still is the case. If we 
take 
> > this 
> > > > by it word, it doesn't make sense. H.P.B. was the Master 
S.B. 
> > how 
> > > > was the Head of the First Section, and not of the Second 
Section 
> > > > (the ES). Master M. was I.H. of the ES, and H.P. Blavatsky 
was 
> > the 
> > > > O.H. And if we believe the he was meaning H.P. Blavatsky, it 
> > still 
> > > > doesn't make any sense. Only if H.P. Blavatsky today is a 
> > Master, 
> > > > but then the ULT-people know something the rest of the 
> > Theosophical 
> > > > world doesn't know anything about. 
> > > > 
> > > > I haven't seen much of the DES-material, but is there 
something 
> > that 
> > > > not is to be found the material of Blavatsky's and Judge's 
EST, 
> > or 
> > > > not in common is known? If there is nothing, which I think, 
the 
> > ULT-
> > > > people can say what they wants, for in a "new start" of an 
> > Esoteric 
> > > > body, direct under the leadership of the Master, there must 
be 
> > > > something. Further instructions or explanations etc. I know 
that 
> > > > P.B. Wadia wrote new material for the DES, but I haven't 
seen 
> > this, 
> > > > so I don't know that this is about. 
> > > > 
> > > > About claims within the ULT. One other thing is that some 
> > leading 
> > > > ULT-associates are saying that Mr. Judge immediately after 
hid 
> > death 
> > > > took over the body after a young boy in New York City, who 
just 
> > dead 
> > > > in ammonia, and that this boy when he was older joined the 
ULT. 
> > So 
> > > > maybe this boy was the Chela Crosbie was working together 
whit? 
> > Who 
> > > > knows? 
> > > > 
> > > > I just said that "some leading ULT-associates" are saying 
this, 
> > and 
> > > > NOT that the ULT is saying it. So please, don't make me to 
> > repeat 
> > > > this. 
> > > > 
> > > > Carl
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "danielhcaldwell" 
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > To Carl (& maybe Carlos)--- 
> > > > > Robert Crosbie Acting UNDER THE DIRECTION of a Master??
> > > > > -------------------------------------------------------
> > > > > 
> > > > > In 1887, H.P. Blavatsky wrote to Countess Constance 
> > Wachtmeister 
> > > > the 
> > > > > following:
> > > > > 
> > > > > "After a long conversation with Master....either I have to 
> > return 
> > > > to 
> > > > > India to die . . . or I have to form ... a nucleus of true 
> > > > > Theosophists, a school of my own ... with as many mystics 
as I 
> > can 
> > > > > get to teach them...."
> > > > > 
> > > > > Later in Sept. 1888 in a letter to John Ransom Bridge, HPB 
> > wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > "...I am organizing...a special centre ... of exclusively 
> > occult 
> > > > > students, willing to accept...the teachings of which I am 
the 
> > > > channel 
> > > > > and which I cannot impart except to pledged members...."
> > > > > 
> > > > > In the "Preliminary Memorandum" issued in Dec. 1888, one 
finds 
> > the 
> > > > > following: 
> > > > > 
> > > > > "The real Head of the Esoteric Section is a Master, of 
whom 
> > H.P. 
> > > > > Blavatsky is the mouthpiece for this Section. He is one of 
> > those 
> > > > > Adepts referred to in theosophical literature, and 
concerned 
> > in 
> > > > the 
> > > > > formation of the Theosophical Society. It is through H.P. 
> > > > Blavatsky 
> > > > > that each member of this section will be brought more 
closely 
> > than 
> > > > > hitherto under His influence and care if found worthy of 
it." 
> > > > > Quoted from: 
> > http://www.katinkahesselink.net/esinstr.htm#prelim1
> > > > > 
> > > > > From the above, one sees that H.P. Blavatsky formed the 
> > Esoteric 
> > > > > Section AT THE DIRECTION of the Master. And the Master was 
the 
> > > > REAL 
> > > > > Head of the Section and H.P. Blavatsky was the MOUTHPIECE 
of 
> > this 
> > > > > Master for the Section.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Now consider what the historian Gregory Tillett has 
written 
> > about 
> > > > > Robert Crosbie and the Dzyan Esoteric School:
> > > > > 
> > > > > "Within the ULT a separate ES, claiming continuity with 
that 
> > of 
> > > > HPB, 
> > > > > was established in 1909 with the title 'Dzyan Esoteric 
> > School', 
> > > > which 
> > > > > it claimed was the proper title of the Second [Esoteric] 
> > Section 
> > > > of 
> > > > > the Theosophical Society."
> > > > > 
> > > > > Dr. Tillett also wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > "The first DES group was established in Los Angeles by 
Robert 
> > > > Crosbie 
> > > > > in November 1909...."
> > > > > 
> > > > > Quoted from:
> > > > > "DES", http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-
talk/message/36730
> > > > > Posted on Theos-Talk, Tues Oct 31, 2006, 1:19 pm
> > > > > 
> > > > > Notice that Dr. Tillett writes that the DES claimed 
CONTINUITY 
> > > > with 
> > > > > the ES of HPB.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Now ponder this:
> > > > > 
> > > > > If H.P. Blavatsky formed the Esoteric Section in 1888 
UNDER 
> > THE 
> > > > > DIRECTION of her Master, then under WHOSE DIRECTION did 
Robert 
> > > > > Crosbie form in 1909 the Dzyan Esoteric School?
> > > > > 
> > > > > And was there a Master who was actually the real Head of 
the 
> > Dzyan 
> > > > > Esoteric School?
> > > > > 
> > > > > And if H.P. Blavatsky was the MOUTHPIECE of her Master for 
the 
> > > > > Esoteric Section, was Robert Crosbie the "mouthpiece" of a 
> > Master 
> > > > for 
> > > > > the Dzyan Esoteric School?
> > > > > 
> > > > > These questions seem very relevant and appropriate to ask 
in 
> > light 
> > > > of 
> > > > > what H.P. Blavatsky wrote and especially since Robert 
Crosbie 
> > > > himself 
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > "If, then, the true Theosophical Movement, and THE TRUE 
CHELAS 
> > of 
> > > > the 
> > > > > School of the Masters are NOT to be found among those 
> > [persons, 
> > > > for 
> > > > > example, Mrs. Besant and Mrs. Tingley] who have lost the 
point 
> > of 
> > > > > contact with the Masters, while yet loudly proclaiming 
> > themselves 
> > > > > Initiates and Outer and Inner Heads of this, that, and the 
> > other 
> > > > > theosophical society and esoteric section, WHERE MAY THEY 
> > [ ... 
> > > > THE 
> > > > > TRUE CHELAS ...] BE DISCERNED? . . ." Theosophy, March 
1915. 
> > > > caps 
> > > > > added.
> > > > > 
> > > > > ". . . The various theosophical societies and esoteric 
> > sections OF 
> > > > > THE DAY are in no sense representative of the School of 
the 
> > > > Masters 
> > > > > or the Theosophical Movement. . . The Anciently universal 
> > Wisdom- 
> > > > > Religion, the School of the Masters and the Theosophical 
> > Movement 
> > > > are 
> > > > > in unbroken continuity of existence to-day as 
always. . . ."
> > > > > 
> > > > > "NOW, as always, they have THEIR REPRESENTATIVES AND 
AGENTS 
> > AMONG 
> > > > > MEN, who cannot be found out by any but those who have 
earned 
> > the 
> > > > > right to know them. . . ." Theosophy, February 1915. caps 
> > added.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Since Crosbie founded this secret Dzyan Esoteric School, 
was 
> > he 
> > > > > himself a "true chela", a "representative" and "agent" of 
the 
> > > > > Masters among men? 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Especially since he had in so many words stated that Mrs. 
> > Besant, 
> > > > > Mrs. Tingley, etc had "lost the point of contact with the 
> > > > Masters". 
> > > > > 
> > > > > So was he NOW "the point of contact with the Masters"?
> > > > > 
> > > > > Also keep in mind that at his death, THEOSOPHY magazine 
> > proclaimed 
> > > > in 
> > > > > no uncertain terms:
> > > > > 
> > > > > "Robert Crosbie preserved unbroken the link of the Second 
> > > > [Esoteric] 
> > > > > Section of the Theosophical Movement from the passing of 
Mr. 
> > Judge 
> > > > in 
> > > > > 1896, and in 1907 - just eleven years later - made that 
link 
> > once 
> > > > > more Four Square amongst men. In the year 1909 the Third 
> > Section 
> > > > was 
> > > > > restored by the formation of the United Lodge of 
> > Theosophists ...."
> > > > > 
> > > > > "...There is always one Witness on the scene. After the 
death 
> > of 
> > > > Mr. 
> > > > > Judge, Robert Crosbie kept the link unbroken." Theosophy 
> > > > magazine, 
> > > > > August, 1919.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Crosbie believed Judge was the agent and representative of 
the 
> > > > > Masters when he was still alive. So if indeed Crosbie kept 
the 
> > > > > [esoteric?] link unbroken after Mr. Judge's death, was 
Crosbie 
> > > > > really the "one Witness"? And what exactly does that term 
mean?
> > > > > 
> > > > > one Witness = true Chela = Representative = Agent of the 
> > > > Masters ????
> > > > > 
> > > > > Daniel
> > > > > http://hpb.cc
> > > > >
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente 
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> > 
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> > 
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> > 
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> > 
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