Theos-Talk Archives (November 2006 Message tt00107)

Thanks Daniel for this interesting posting.

Blavatsky claimed direct, and in no "cryptic ways, that she was an 
agent of the Masters, and acted on Their direct orders, both when 
she founded the TS in 1875, and when she founded the E.S.T.S. in 
1888.  She said this straight out. But with Crosbie it was something 
else. 
Crosbie was saying that some one was "one Witness" and "a Represent" 
of the Masters etc, but not that these one was him self. After his 
death, that ULT-people was claiming that this was Crosbie, but did 
he ever claimed that him self? I don't know, and answer is most 
probably hidden for the world in the archives of DES and Theosophy 
Company in Los Angeles. If not there is something in his writhing, 
that we have missed.
I'm just guessing now. Could there have been some one else? Was 
Crosbie alone? The fact that Crosbie was married, with a young child 
(as far as know, he only hade one daughter), was a direct 
disqualification for him, to be a Chela. Could he have been working 
together with a Chela? How knows? The fact that the official history 
of the ULT not is fully reliable does not make this easier. 

For some years ago, one group president of the DES told me that they 
(the DES) consider "H.P.B." as their "sole Head" (no talk there 
about any I.H. or O.H., and their highest officer was a "simple 
Secretary", his words not mine), and that this was the case when it 
was founded (1909) and that this still is the case. If we take this 
by it word, it doesn't make sense. H.P.B. was the Master S.B. how 
was the Head of the First Section, and not of the Second Section 
(the ES). Master M. was I.H. of the ES, and H.P. Blavatsky was the 
O.H. And if we believe the he was meaning H.P. Blavatsky, it still 
doesn't make any sense. Only if H.P. Blavatsky today is a Master, 
but then the ULT-people know something the rest of the Theosophical 
world doesn't know anything about. 

I haven't seen much of the DES-material, but is there something that 
not is to be found the material of Blavatsky's and Judge's EST, or 
not in common is known? If there is nothing, which I think, the ULT-
people can say what they wants, for in a "new start" of an Esoteric 
body, direct under the leadership of the Master, there must be 
something. Further instructions or explanations etc. I know that 
P.B. Wadia wrote new material for the DES, but I haven't seen this, 
so I don't know that this is about. 

About claims within the ULT. One other thing is that some leading 
ULT-associates are saying that Mr. Judge immediately after hid death 
took over the body after a young boy in New York City, who just dead 
in ammonia, and that this boy when he was older joined the ULT. So 
maybe this boy was the Chela Crosbie was working together whit? Who 
knows? 

I just said that "some leading ULT-associates" are saying this, and 
NOT that the ULT is saying it. So please, don't make me to repeat 
this. 

Carl


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "danielhcaldwell" 
<danielhcaldwell@...> wrote:
>
> To Carl (& maybe Carlos)---  
> Robert Crosbie Acting UNDER THE DIRECTION of a Master??
> -------------------------------------------------------
> 
> In 1887, H.P. Blavatsky wrote to Countess Constance Wachtmeister 
the 
> following:
> 
> "After a long conversation with Master....either I have to return 
to 
> India to die . . . or I have to form ... a nucleus of true 
> Theosophists, a school of my own ... with as many mystics as I can 
> get to teach them...."
> 
> Later in Sept. 1888 in a letter to John Ransom Bridge, HPB wrote:
> 
> "...I am organizing...a special centre ... of exclusively occult 
> students, willing to accept...the teachings of which I am the 
channel 
> and which I cannot impart except to pledged members...."
> 
> In the "Preliminary Memorandum" issued in Dec. 1888, one finds the 
> following: 
> 
> "The real Head of the Esoteric Section is a Master, of whom H.P. 
> Blavatsky is the mouthpiece for this Section. He is one of those 
> Adepts referred to in theosophical literature, and concerned in 
the 
> formation of the Theosophical Society. It is through H.P. 
Blavatsky 
> that each member of this section will be brought more closely than 
> hitherto under His influence and care if found worthy of it." 
> Quoted from:  http://www.katinkahesselink.net/esinstr.htm#prelim1
> 
> From the above, one sees that H.P. Blavatsky formed the Esoteric 
> Section AT THE DIRECTION of the Master.  And the Master was the 
REAL 
> Head of the Section and H.P. Blavatsky was the MOUTHPIECE of this 
> Master for the Section.
> 
> Now consider what the historian Gregory Tillett has written about 
> Robert Crosbie and the Dzyan Esoteric School:
> 
> "Within the ULT a separate ES, claiming continuity with that of 
HPB, 
> was established in 1909 with the title 'Dzyan Esoteric School', 
which 
> it claimed was the proper title of the Second [Esoteric] Section 
of 
> the Theosophical Society."
> 
> Dr. Tillett also wrote:
> 
> "The first DES group was established in Los Angeles by Robert 
Crosbie 
> in November 1909...."
> 
> Quoted from:
> "DES", http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theos-talk/message/36730
> Posted on Theos-Talk, Tues Oct 31, 2006, 1:19 pm
> 
> Notice that Dr. Tillett writes that the DES claimed CONTINUITY 
with 
> the ES of HPB.
> 
> Now ponder this:
> 
> If H.P. Blavatsky formed the Esoteric Section in 1888 UNDER THE 
> DIRECTION of her Master, then under WHOSE DIRECTION did Robert 
> Crosbie form in 1909 the Dzyan Esoteric School?
> 
> And was there a Master who was actually the real Head of the Dzyan 
> Esoteric School?
> 
> And if H.P. Blavatsky was the MOUTHPIECE of her Master for the 
> Esoteric Section, was Robert Crosbie the "mouthpiece" of a Master 
for 
> the Dzyan Esoteric School?
> 
> These questions seem very relevant and appropriate to ask in light 
of 
> what H.P. Blavatsky wrote and especially since Robert Crosbie 
himself 
> wrote:
> 
> "If, then, the true Theosophical Movement, and THE TRUE CHELAS of 
the 
> School of the Masters are NOT to be found among those [persons, 
for 
> example, Mrs. Besant and Mrs. Tingley] who have lost the point of 
> contact with the Masters, while yet loudly proclaiming themselves 
> Initiates and Outer and Inner Heads of this, that, and the other 
> theosophical society and esoteric section, WHERE MAY THEY [ ... 
THE 
> TRUE CHELAS ...] BE DISCERNED? . . ." Theosophy, March 1915.  
caps  
> added.
> 
> ". . . The various theosophical societies and esoteric sections OF 
> THE DAY are in no sense representative of the School of the 
Masters 
> or the Theosophical Movement. . . The Anciently universal Wisdom- 
> Religion, the School of the Masters and the Theosophical Movement 
are 
> in unbroken continuity of existence to-day as always. . . ."
> 
> "NOW, as always, they have THEIR REPRESENTATIVES AND AGENTS AMONG 
> MEN, who cannot be found out by any but those who have earned the 
> right to know them. . . ." Theosophy, February 1915. caps added.
> 
> Since Crosbie founded this secret Dzyan Esoteric School, was he 
> himself a "true chela", a "representative" and "agent"  of the 
> Masters among men?  
> 
> Especially since he had in so many words stated that Mrs. Besant, 
> Mrs. Tingley, etc had "lost the point of contact with the 
Masters".  
> 
> So was he NOW "the point of contact with the Masters"?
> 
> Also keep in mind that at his death, THEOSOPHY magazine proclaimed 
in 
> no uncertain terms:
> 
> "Robert Crosbie preserved unbroken the link of the Second 
[Esoteric] 
> Section of the Theosophical Movement from the passing of Mr. Judge 
in 
> 1896, and in 1907 - just eleven years later - made that link once 
> more Four Square amongst men. In the year 1909 the Third Section 
was 
> restored by the formation of the United Lodge of Theosophists ...."
> 
> "...There is always one Witness on the scene. After the death of 
Mr. 
> Judge, Robert Crosbie kept the link unbroken."  Theosophy 
magazine, 
> August, 1919.
> 
> Crosbie believed Judge was the agent and representative of the 
> Masters when he was still alive.  So if indeed Crosbie kept the 
> [esoteric?] link unbroken after Mr. Judge's death, was Crosbie 
> really the "one Witness"?  And what exactly does that term mean?
> 
> one Witness = true Chela = Representative = Agent of the 
Masters  ????
> 
> Daniel
> http://hpb.cc
>