Theos-Talk Archives (June 2006 Message tt00272)

Wednesday, June 14, 2006


Dear Friends:

These answers might be considered as THEOSOPHY might answer :


What transcends ?"light" and "dark" ?  in you / me, and in nature ?

Are not all expressions and all assumptions : ?finding out what
"interpreting itself" is all about ??

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CORRESPONDENCE  &  ANALOGY

Q.:	In what sense is the word ?correspond? used in Theosophical writings
and the works of Swedenborg? In the sense of ?cause and effect,? and that
things never ?correspond? unless this relation exists between them?

W.Q.J.?I presume the questioner refers to the use of the words ?it
corresponds,? ?there is a correspondence.? This does not refer [20 1 to
cause and effect, but rather to similarity or likeness, as: ?Good
corresponds to light, and evil to darkness?; ?Selfishness corresponds to
frigidity and iciness, and generosity to heat.? 

There is no relation of cause and effect between these, for generosity is
not the effect of heat nor its cause, nor is the light the effect or cause
of goodness. You are therefore essentially wrong in supposing the word
?correspondence? is used to express cause and effect. An examination of a
good dictionary discloses the meaning to be ?fitness, agreement,
proportion,? hence ?similarity.? 

The questioner should study this word and obtain a clear understanding of
its meaning and use, for if the conception of it remains so confused as the
question indicates, many other errors will result. A more or less complete
knowledge of correspondences gives the power to gain knowledge gradually
from one plane to another."  FORUM Ans.  pp 19-20 ]



OCCULTISM  & ALTRUISM


Q.:	Or is it, on the other hand, the operation of a KARMIC LAW upon the
character of the individual, making use of his PERSONAL VANITY as a fulcrum
for forcing the special weakness of his LOWER SELF into a reckless
expression of itself?   [ FORUM Ans.  p. 10  ]
	

	W.Q.J.?While the questioner answers his question himself, it only
gives half of the subject. The real study?on the path?of occultism not only
brings out latent evil but also latent good. The right way to express it is,
?the study of true occultism, or the walking on its path, brings up the
entire latent character of the person.? 

[ "UNTIL THE PRINCIPLES OF ALTRUISM ASSUME DEFINITE SWAY OVER HIS MIND AND
MOTIVES, THE INDIVIDUAL IS WITHOUT PRACTICAL AND EFFICIENT RESTRAINTS UPON
HIS LOWER SELF? "     [ F A.   p. 9 ]   ]


"Hence while some in this case suddenly seem to grow worse and worse, others
suddenly grow better, deeper, broader, and finer. It is customary to look at
the shadow in these matters. 

While it is true that the majority of men are inherently bad, there are
examples of the opposite. 

The study of occultism does not destroy rules of right and wrong, but the
student, having opened up the fires below the surface, may be easily carried
away in the sudden heat engendered. 

The dweller of the threshold in Zanoni is no fiction. It is ever with each
student, for it is the baser part of humanity that he begins in real earnest
as never before to fight. At the same time, the brightly shining Adonai is
also there to help and save if we will let that be done. 

Karma that might not operate except after years or lives is called upon and
falls, as H.P.B. has so clearly stated, in one mass upon the head of him who
has called upon immutable law. ?Fools rush in where angels fear to tread,?
and, rushing in before they have the slightest idea of their own character,
even on its surface, they are often destroyed. 

But the practice of altruism is not by itself occultism, and it saves from
danger and prepares one for another incarnation in some body and age when
everything will favor us. We have yet left some few hundred thousand of
mortal years, and ought not to be too precipitous."
	FORUM ANSWERS,  p. 10  		WQJ


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SPIRIT  &  MATTER


Q.:	If every one starts from and returns into ?that? (spirit) what is
the object of existence in matter? Is this the only way to fulfill the
soul?s desire?

W.Q.J.?The questioner should enquire a little further as to the meaning of
?matter,? for if thereby mere mortal material life is meant, the truth about
matter has not been grasped.

The worlds of heaven, of the ?devas? or ?angels,? are worlds of matter, and
yet such worlds are sought after by those who ask the question under
consideration.

Furthermore the occultists hold that spirit has not as yet incarnated fully
in the existing race, but will do so in future ages; then men can say that
they have a spirit. 

At present the men who are incarnated spirits are Adepts or Mahatmas. 

Toward the moment of this grand incarnation we are hastening, and the
experience now being undergone is to settle the question whether we will
become fit for such a tremendous event or whether we will fail. Assuredly
all are called to this grand work, but just as certainly some will not be
chosen.?   FORUM ANSWERS,  p. 2  		WQJ

-----------------------------

W.Q.J.?This question is one of deep importance to those who are in earnest.
My answer to it would be ?yes.? Bulwer Lytton says, in the Strange Story,
that man?s first initiation comes in dreams. In The BOOK OF JOB it is
written (c. iv, 12.13); ?Now a thing was secretly brought to me, and mine
ear received a little thereof. In thought from the visions of the night,
when deep sleep falleth on men.? And (c. xxxiii, 14): ?For God speaketh
once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not. In a dream, in a vision of the
night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed.? 

The state spoken of in Job is the same as that called Sushupti [deep,
dreamless sleep] by the Hindus. 

Man has three principal states or conditions?waking, dreaming, and dreamless
or deep slumber. 

In the last it is held that communion is enjoyed with the Spirit, and that
the inner man, returning or changing from that condition, goes into a dream,
short or long, from which he changes into the waking state. The influences
of Sushupti are highly spiritual. They are common to all men. 

The greatest villain on the earth, as well as the most virtuous man, goes
into Sushupti and receives benefit from it. If it were not so, wickedness
would triumph in the earth through the overpowering influence of the body
and its constant downward tendency. 

Now, if this is believed and the reality of the Higher Self admitted, it
follows from what is called the mysterious power of meditation that a
sincerely devoted man who earnestly calls upon the Higher Self for aid in
right conduct will receive in the dream state that succeeds the condition of
Sushupti the aid asked for, in other words, one can make the dream
impressions received out of the highest?or Sushupti?state more clear and
valuable than is usual with those who think nothing about it. 

But the questions asked and impressions desired must be high and altruistic,
because the Higher Self has no concern with material things nor with any
temporal affairs. This power will of course vary with each man according to
his nature and the various combinations between his physical, astral, and
psychical planes.	FORUM And. pp. 7-8   WQJ


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ATTAINING ?PERFECTION?


Q.:	A teacher of Theosophy says that not more than one in ten thousand
is immortal. Is the statement correct? if so, what is the use of
reincarnation, and for what are Theosophists working?


	W.Q.J.?The second of the questions would not have been asked if more
attention had been paid to the acquirement of an accurate understanding of
the Theosophical philosophy. 

It has never been a secret doctrine that ?but few among mortals strive for
perfection and out of those only one in ten thousand reaches the end
desired.? These words are to be found in the BHAGAVAD-GITA, [ p. 56 ] which
was printed first in English 100 years ago. But even if we did not have the
direct statement in the Bhagavad-Gita, the fundamental Theosophical
doctrines compel us to the conclusion that many will fail to reach
immortality. 

Since, however, the same doctrines teach us to analyze and determine as to
what ?many? or ?us? means, we find that the theory under discussion applies
solely to the lower or strictly human ego and not to Spirit. 

The object, therefore, of reincarnation is that all the possible egos may
have the chance to become immortal by uniting themselves with Spirit. 

If they do not, they lose. But further yet, it is laid down that the periods
of evolution succeed each other in endless succession, and all who are ?left
over? unsaved at the end of any one of such periods are taken up again, in
the succeeding evolution, for the purpose of working up to perfection. 

Thus in every Manvantara numbers of egos reach perfection, for that period
is very long as mortals count years. I say ?numbers? because in fact the
number is very large, although, if compared to the entire whole, they may
not seem to be many. 

This is what Theosophists are working for? not only to reach perfection
themselves but to help all other men to do so likewise. 

And they should remember that whether they like it or not, the laws of life
will bring them upon earth again and again until they believe in the
doctrine, and acquire aspiration, and turn both into action.

But who is the ?teacher of Theosophy? spoken of by the questioner?


Q.:	The ?Guardians of the Gods? opposite to the entrances to the temples
in India are represented as having one foot on the head of a cobra; is this
typical of the triumph of the Hindu religion over the worship of the
serpent?or not?


W.Q.J.?I should say it is not. The serpent has many meanings, and to stand
with the foot on its head might mean that you have obtained complete mastery
over the lower nature, for the snake then stands for nature and its powers.
And as the Hindu religion has a good deal in it about the serpent, the
figures spoken of can not mean the triumph of that religion over serpent
worship.		[F A.  pp. 11-12 ]


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What is ATMA ?


ATMA


Q.:	Is the seventh principle, the Atma, ever incarnated, or are our
bodies simply projections of that principle and formed by it, as was the
statue Galat?a by Pygmalion? From some Theosophical books I gather that the
seven principles are all incarnated from the beginning, and that each
principle is evolved in turn. From others it would seem that the higher
principles are never incarnated.

W.Q.J.?The fiction of the formation of Galataea by Pygmalion is such a faint
and inadequate symbol or illustration that there is [19] nothing to be
gained by its use, as it will surely mislead.

The evolution of the bodily form came about in the same way as that of all
other forms; as said in the Bhagavad-Gita, ?All is due to the mystic power
of self-ideation, the eternal thought in the eternal mind,? and only in the
sense that all forms are projections from the eternal can we say that ?our
bodies are projections of that principle? (Atma). 

The second sentence of the question shows that here is another case in which
the very materialistic view of the sevenfold constitution of man given in
Esoteric Buddhism and used by so many thereafter has resulted in inducing
the notion that there is a separation between the so-called ?principles.? 

This idea of seven distinct things, entities, or principles in man ought to
be abandoned, and is due almost wholly to erroneous nomenclature, as was
strongly urged in several papers published in the Path. 

There can only be one principle, and all the rest are but aspects of it, or
vehicles for it to work and manifest through. 

Therefore but the one principle is involved in generation, when it takes to
itself six sheaths or vehicles, or shows itself under six aspects. But as it
is Theosophic doctrine that this one principle? call it Atma?is in essence
the Supreme, then its involution in matter is but partial. 

In order to understand nature and to reach self-consciousness, it is
necessary that the six vehicles be found to work through, and what is meant
in some Theosophical books by the statement that each ?principle evolves in
turn? is that from the beginning of a Manvantara the six material vehicles
have to be evolved one after the other in due order and in correspondence
with the rest of nature, none lagging behind and none ahead. 

For instance, at that period in evolution when we might assume that but one
vehicle had been fully evolved, then man (so-called) would not be man as we
know him. So we. see in the Secret Doctrine that man, strictly as such, is
not spoken of until several races or vehicles had been first fully evolved
in due order and proportion.

>From these considerations the old Hindu idea that what we see of man is but
the inner (or outer) hard core?the material body?and that he, in fact, in
his whole nature reaches even to the moon, would seem to gain some support.
And I should incline to the opinion that Atma is never incarnated, but
overshadows and shines into the being called man whom it has chosen to
connect itself with.     [ F A.  pp 19-20 ]

	[ see also  W Q J ART  I  298   --  on  7 "Principles"] 

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What is ATMA-BUDDHI ?

What is BUDDHI-MANAS ?


W.Q.J.? ... if the question turns on ?suffering,? then I should say that
that does not deprive of memory. This leaves for discussion the other query:
How does the surviving entity carry with it into Devachan the recollections
[ 26 ] of the earthly personality? 

The KEY TO THEOSOPHY in Chap. IX [ p. 148 ] describes the process in general
to which the question refers. There it appears that at death the body,
life-force, and astral body are lost, and the middle principle (Kama-rupa),
together with Manas, Buddhi, and Atma, is in [26]	Kama-Loka, which is
a state or condition and not a place. 

Then the separation between Kama-rupa and the higher triad begins, after the
completion of which 
Manas-Buddhi-Atma fall into the Devachanic state. 

Turning to page 92 of the same book ["Key"], we find in the column
?explanatory? that if the Manas naturally gravitates to Buddhi and away from
Kama-rupa, [26] the ?Ego goes into Devachanic bliss.? This gives the
process. It can not be said to be suffering or painful. 

The only point left, then, is as to memory. [or] .... rightly says
?recollections.? 

Chapter VIII of THE KEY makes this clear. 

?Memory? is the physical brain- memory; 

Reminiscence is the ?memory of the soul.? 

Each new brain makes a new physical memory used by Manas in each life, but
Manas itself is the seat of memory proper, called by H. P. Blavatsky
?reminiscence.? 

It is not meant that Manas takes into Devachan the remembrance of every
circumstance in life, but ONLY THE EFFLORESCENCE OF ITS LIFE, the
reminiscence of its best hours, leaving the painful and evil portions to the
dying brain and to Kama-rupa. 

If the questioner desires, as a help, an objective illustration of what
happens to Manas through the separation from Kama-rupa, this may do:
Imagine Manas as attached on its lower side to Kama-rupa just as a
photograph may be attached to a glass plate. When dry, the paper can be
taken from the plate, leaving on it the film of the picture. 

Thus when Manas is separated, its lower film may be left attached to
Kama-rupa, its higher portion going into Devachan. And it is in Higher Manas
that real memory is."  [ F A. pp. 26-8]


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CONDEMNING OTHERS

Q.:	Is it a fact that we have no right to condemn men, and should only
condemn their conduct?

W.Q.J.?I fail to see that in order to train the moral sense one has to
practice condemnation of others. The necessity for condemnation will never
pass away if we occupy ourselves in such practice while waiting for the
world to grow so good that there will be no one to condemn. 

It appears to me to be an untheosophical doctrine that our moral sense is to
be or can be properly cultivated by engaging in condemnation of others.

The maxim cited in the Question was never intended by the writer or writers
as one for application in the State, but solely for earnest disciples who
endeavor to follow the very highest rules of conduct. 

We are so prone to condemn others and let our own faults go by that
??sincere disciples are taught, as a discipline, to cultivate their moral
sense by inspecting their own faults, and let others do the same for
themselves, but when the occasion demands condemnation, that it shall be of
the wrong act. 

This cannot apply to a judge, or any other proper inquisitor, teacher, or
guide. It is meant solely for those who, believing that our span of life is
so short that there will be no time left if we busy ourselves with faults of
others, prefer to improve their opportunity by purging them selves, by
cleaning their own doorway, by taking the beam out of their own eye. 

For all sages and occult practitioners declare that among the necessary
facts to be known is the fact that ??each time a man indulges in
condemnation of another he is himself prevented by his own act from seeing
his own faults, and that sooner or later his faults increase. 

If a sincere student thinks this be true he will hesitate about others and
occupy himself with self-examination and self-conquest. This will take all
of his time. 

We are not born as universal reformers of all people?s faults and abuses, 

and theosophists can not waste their energies in criticizing others.
Furthermore I strongly doubt if anyone was ever improved by the
fault-finding of his acquaintances. 

It is natural discipline that makes the improvement, and that only. 

Indeed, I have observed in much experience with those who constantly
criticize others that nothing results in 99 cases out of 100 but a smirking
self-satisfaction in the breast of the critic, and anger or contempt in the
heart of the victim of the fault-finding. 

One illustration will do for all, and it is this: One evening I was leaving
the elevated railroad car with a friend who hardly misses a chance for
pointing out omission or commission by others. As he went out first a
roughly-dressed man blocked the way, appearing as if attempting to enter. My
friend, being strong, caught him by the shoulders, shoved him back, and
said, ?The rule is that passengers are let out first.? Result: as he walked
off feeling that he had properly corrected a fault, the man cursed him
loudly, and audibly asked for an opportunity to kick him. Thus naught
resulted but anger and malice in one heart? perhaps in the heart of a man
born in adversity?and in the critic a self-satisfaction which is known to be
the handmaid of delusion."	[ F A  26-8 ]

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27	Q.:	In FORUM 16 it says: ?Virtue leads only to heaven. Wisdom
leads

28	to union with the whole.? What is here meant by virtue?


VIRTUE AND KNOWLEDGE  


W.Q.J.?According to the dictionaries 

P. 28	the radical meaning of virtue is strength. Other meanings are
bravery, efficacy, valor, moral goodness, the abstaining from vice, or
conforming to the moral law. In this last sense the word is used. There is
nothing synonymous between virtue and wisdom. 

In the Christian scheme fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. There is the
mere wisdom of erudition, but properly wisdom means having knowledge or to
know; or skilled in arts, science, or philosophy, or in magic and
divination. (2 Samuel XIV.) 

In homely language, then, 

P. 28	to be virtuous is to be good; to be wise is to possess knowledge. 

If the kingdom of God is the perfectness of evolution, then knowledge is
what leads to it sooner than virtue. Of course these terms are used with the
theosophical scheme of man and nature in view, and in that light it appears
that 

P. 28	??in addition to virtue we must have knowledge, for a life of virtue
leads to pleasures of devachan, with good karma for next life and thus
through many lives; but knowledge added to virtue shows how to use virtue
and its results in finding and treading the path leading to the Supreme
which is all.


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	WHITE MAGIC  /  BLACK


Q.:	Would true Occultists and sincere Theosophists countenance or
practice any lawful arts of White Magic for pay?

W.Q.J.?My reply to this would be that the taking of pay for any act of
?White Magic? is untheosophical and injurious to the taker. 

The example of all great men known to history or Scripture is against the
taking of pay in such cases. Jesus would not take it, nor Apollonius, nor
Buddha, although, if persons insisted, they were allowed to donate food or
for food. 

Buddha depended upon voluntary contributions of food, and accepted the gift
of a garden or park from a rich man for the use of the disciples, but not
for himself. 

A ?right means of livelihood? does not permit the practice of powers
belonging to another plane than this for pay. If we have to starve unless we
take pay for what the querist calls ?arts of White Magic,? then, I say,
starve, and you will be the better off.

The accepting of pay at once takes away the character of White Magic from
the act and makes it Black, for there is a selfish purpose in receiving the
pay which no amount of argument or self-cheating can remove. 

There are many degrees of ?Black Magic,? running all the way from effort to
get money for food up to deliberate, conscious work for self alone. 


	GIFT  OF   HEALING

If one has the natural gift of healing and then takes pay for its use, he is
cheating. This is wide apart from the practise of medicine, which you have
to give effort, time, and money to acquire.

But if a natural healer or a ?spiritual healer??to use a most absurd term
now in vogue in America?practices healing, and takes of alms only enough for
sustenance, there is no Black Magic. 

But all such healers can ask themselves if they have made money, saved
money, bought property, lived in luxury on the proceeds of their art or
practice?or whatever they call it?and, if they have, then certainly they
have ?robbed the gods,? who gave freely a power and compelled no pay. The
?gods? see these things, and have a time and place when and where the stolen
property has to be accounted for.		[ F A.  p. 20 ]

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EFFECT  OF  WAR  ---   KAMA - LOCA


Q.:	What was the effect of our civil war on the astral plane, and
reflexively on ourselves?

W.Q.J.?-To answer this Question aright would require the powers of an Adept
who could see into the astral light and measure the exact results. 

But SUDDEN DEATHS IN WAR are not the same in effect as the killing of a
murderer or a wicked man who has violated the law. 

The men destroyed in battle are engaged in the moving of troops, the
arrangement of batteries, firing of volleys, and using the sword. Their
attention is almost wholly thus occupied, and when they are suddenly killed
it is with this idea of present attack and defence fixed in their nature. 


	The ASTRAL WARRIOR confines himself to the repetition of attack and
defence, 

If we suppose them as lingering in the astral plane, then they will there
continue the same actions which occupied them at the time of death. 

But the CRIMINAL, who has led a criminal life, who is full of evil passions,
and who steps off into the other world with a heart full of passion and
revenge, will linger on the other plane full of those unsatisfied desires,
and not overmastered, as is the warrior, by a single strong idea. ?the
CRIMINAL seeks to satisfy his revenge and bad instincts in general

The ASTRAL WARRIOR confines himself to the repetition of attack and defence,


while the CRIMINAL seeks to satisfy his revenge and bad instincts in
general. 

These considerations seem to me to point out a difference. I do not pretend
to answer the whole question, however, as to the effect of war acting from
other planes."


---------------------------------------------------

W.Q.J.?The septenary scheme of man?s constitution and the conclusions as to
how the separation of the so-called principles takes place, as well as their
?fate? after death of the body, seem to be against the assumption that it is
superstition to suppose that evil results from suicides and those dead by
accident being drawn to séance rooms. 


VIOLENT DEATH   --  SUICIDE  --  MURDER


It is well known that after violent death of the body the principles above
the material do not separate as in other cases, do not go to Devachan, do
not dissipate. 

In a case of natural ordinary demise the astral body dissipates, so does
Kama-rupa; with the other cases it is not so. 


SUICIDE

The man who kills himself is not really dead. Only his body is dead; he
remains a living man in the astral spheres close to us, minus a body. 

If left alone he comes to his end in due course, but a long way off,
generally measured by the length of years he would have lived if he had not
raised hand against himself. 

But if he is drawn into a medium, he is given a new attraction which ties
him to earth and makes him drunk, as it were, with the fumes of life. This
retards him and causes him to live long, long years in Kama Loka, and
curses, too, the one who draws him thus further down. 

How does ?the orderly working of Karma? go against this? It is his Karma
that made him a suicide, that put it in the power of mediums to disturb him.
It is exactly the case of a man who drinks to excess, and who thus puts
himself where he may be harmed by other evil influences. "
	

ACCIDENTAL DEATH


Also in the case of accidental death. Karma made by the same person decrees
that he shall so punish himself and so lay himself open to all the
consequences that may follow. 

That is no reason why we should ignore the law and pay a dollar to gratify
our whims and at the same time hurt a fellow-being. "		[ FORUM Ans.
pp.  24-5 ]


-----------------------------------------------

Best wishes,


Dallas

===========================

-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald Schueler 
Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 6:35 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: Chaos

<<My name isn't Dal, but ... seems to me that "light" and "dark" are samples
of dualistic/mayavic thinking,>>
 
of course they are.
 
 
<< so could be seen to exist only in some relative/interpretive sense. >>
 
Do you know of any other mode of existence?
 
 
<<   The way I tend to see it ... I suspect that the Esoteric/Wisdom
Tradition and Theosophy are about, among other things, finding out what
"interpreting itself" is all about.  >>
 
The ET is, but Theosophy is not because it is itself an interpretation.
 
 
<<My "interpreting interpreting" comments lately have been about how one
might realize what else might be at the root of interpreting interpreting,
besides notions about "initial assumptions" >>
 
Try as you may, you cannot avoid making assumptions. Initial assumptions
have to do with logic, and logic only functions within them.
I have already providing several models of interpreting interpreting. 
 
 			snip