Theos-Talk Archives (May 2006 Message tt00837)

Dear Dallas,


Please do read Plato.

Then you will see Socrates deserved to be Plato's master.

You saying Socrates did not purify his lower self seems to be a strong indication that you are not familiar with Plato's Dialogues.  

Socrates had frequent samadhis. And such a clarity as his can't come, as you well know, in the absence of purity in the lower self. 

Please do also some reading of Xenophon --  not a Platonist --  and Xenophon's  independent testimony of Socrates's great wisdom will duly impress you. 

In the average, HPB's and Masters' quotations/references on Socrates confirm that impression, as anyone can see by looking at them. 

Best regards,   Carlos.


De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Cópia:

Data:Sun, 28 May 2006 07:25:16 -0700

Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World RE: Socrates' Higher Self or "Nous" The E S

> 5/28/2006 6:18 AM
> 
> Dear Carlos:
> 
> You ask in conclusion:
> 
> " So Socrates’ Daimon was his own higher self, Monad, Atma-Buddhi.
> " 
> 
> Let me offer the following thoughts: It seems to me in this case that the
> personality we know of historically as Socrates had not undergone the
> process of Lower-Self [Kama-Manas] purification which the "Mystery schools"
> in Plato's time still made available. 
> 
> I believe he was called "mediumistic" and was not therefore in full
> Buddhi-Manasic control of the highest aspect of his personality
> (Kama-Manas).
> 
> Under the rules then in force in Plato's time (those of the Mystery Schools)
> he had violated (unknowingly to himself) these by offering openly some items
> that where still most secret. 
> 
> Looking for another and more recent example of this we can find how shocked
> Subba Row was when he was asked by HPB to review and edit the first pages of
> the SECRET DOCTRINE -- copied by C. Wachtmeister and sent to him in Mss. at
> Adyar. 
> 
> He (I conclude) must have found himself in conflict with his own pledges of
> secrecy as a Brahman. Yet it is said he had the same Guru as HPB.
> Apparently even such advanced chelas as SR have to develop and exert their
> independent Intuition over such matters . 
> 
> [ In any case, we are told that HPB had "special permission" granted to her
> to reveal facts that had hitherto been kept ESOTERIC -- see ISIS UNVEILED,
> Vol. II, p. 307 top ]
> 
> I will offer an opinion on what happened: 
> 
> There is a hint given by HPB, as she says that starting with the E S (1888)
> a change was given to the direction of exoteric theosophical work [The
> THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY in Adyar and Olcott swayed by the Council, had rejected
> her (1885) and the Masters directions and methods.] -- and she stated later
> that she would be solely responsible for the consequences of the changes she
> would make, and yet, retain fraternal relations with the many sections and
> branches of the THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY every one of which she declared to be
> independent, and united under Col. Olcott, as President for Life. 
> 
> She lived for 3 years thereafter, and designated Judge (with 13 years of
> successful chelaship embodied in him) to carry on and direct the Esoteric
> Section after her passing. His ability and power in America caused the
> THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY to expand rapidly and spread to some extent Europe and
> Australia. Yet he (WQJ) was an ill person and had no desire to usurp Olcott,
> or to go to Adyar. 
> 
> Col. Olcott, though given a charter for the Esoteric Section in the East,
> chose to have nothing to do with it. A B in England and Europe, chose at
> first to fully assist judge, but then fell (under one of the 'tests' of
> chelaship, under a Brahman's dark psychic influence, and the psychic
> phenomena he produced, and the hints he advanced stating that she ought to
> begin to doubt HPB's Masters and Judge's direct connections to Them, and
> their sincerity. More confusion. A B discovered Olcott had the same kind
> of doubts. They joined forces apparently, to open the "Judge Case." .
> 
> All the rest followed -- fired by the single fact that never can the
> "esoteric" be proved or demonstrated by the exoteric. 
> 
> No one can PROVE the esoteric to anyone else. 
> 
> Each has to discover it IN HIMSELF: ATMA-BUDDHI the IMMORTAL HIGHER SELF.
> 
> The BUDDHI-MANAS is the MORAL INDIVIDUAL the ETERNAL Monad in incarnation.
> 
> All the virtues have to be lived openly and observed practically.
> 
> No personal claims have any value.
> 
> I write the above, it being only my opinion of the matters based on facts
> adduced.
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Dallas
> 
> ==========================================================
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: carlosaveline
> Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 8:19 AM
> To: 
> Subject: Socrates' Higher Self or "Nous"
> 
> 
> Dallas, Friends, 
> 
> 
> H. P. Blavatsky writes in "Isis Unveiled": 
> 
> “The daemonium of Socrates was his nous [in Greek in the original], mind,
> spirit, or understanding of the divine in it. ‘The nous [in Greek in the
> original] of Socrates’, says Plutarch, ‘was pure and mixed itself with the
> body no more than necessity required.... (...) The part that is plunged into
> the body is called soul. But the incorruptible part is called the nous and
> the vulgar think it is within them, as they likewise imagine the image from
> a glass [ that is, a mirror ] to be in that glass. But the more intelligent,
> who know it to be without, call it a Daemon’ (a god, a Spirit).” (1) 
> 
> And in the “Mahatma Letters”, this statement is confirmed. Writing about
> the seventh and sixth principles of human consciousness, which form one’s
> Monad or higher self, an Adept-Teachers explains:
> 
> “Neither Atma or Buddhi ever were within man, a little metaphisical axiom
> that you can study with advantage in Plutarch and Anaxagoras. The latter
> made his [ Greek words for ‘nous’ ] the spirit self-potent, the nous that
> alone recognized noumena whhile the former taught on the authority of Plato
> and Pythagoras that the semomnius or this nous always remained without the
> body; that it floated and overshadowed so to say the extreme part of the
> man’s head, it is only the vulgar who think it is within them.” (2)
> 
> In the Christian tradition, the aureoles above the heads of Saints, in
> their portraits, are unconscious references to this fact. (3) 
> 
> So Socrates’ Daimon was his own higher self, Monad, Atma-Buddhi. 
> Best regards, Carlos Cardoso Aveline 
> 
> NOTES: 
> 
> (1) “Isis Unveiled”, H. P. Blavatsky, T.U.P., Pasadena, CA, USA, 1988,
> Volume II, 284-285. 
> 
> (2) “The Mahatma Letters to A. P. Sinnett”, T.U.P., Letter CXXVII, p. 455
> (Letter 72 in the chronological edition, TPH, Philippines). 
> 
> (3) About the aureoles, see “Mahatma Letters”, T.U.P., Letter XXIII-B,
> item 9. (Letter 93-B, chronological edition). 
> 
> ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo 
> 
> 
> De:"W.Dallas TenBroeck" dalval14@earthlink.net
> 
> Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Cópia:
> 
> Data:Fri, 26 May 2006 07:59:59 -0700
> 
> Assunto:[Spam] RE: Socrates
> 
> > 5/26/2006 7:58 AM
> > 
> > Dear Friends:
> > 
> > Having appreciation for Ken's view (below)
> > 
> > Could these ideas also be considered?
> > 
> > INNER EGO.DOC
> > ===============
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > November 9, 2005
> > 
> > There are a number of terms used here and one ought to go to the 
> > THEOSOPHICAL GLOSSARY to secure more accurate description of them. That is
> > the starting base we all need. Next would be to go to the SECRET DOCTRINE
> > INDEX and look up all the references that throw light on this subject. It
> > is best that each student do this work for himself -- there are no
> > "short-cuts."
> > 
> > Allow me to offer this to be checked out and considered:
> > 
> > The SPIRIT (ATMA) which is universal (as MAHATMA) already exists as a
> basis
> > in every smallest aspect of Nature and also in Man, as the ATMA [a "Ray"
> of
> > the ABSOLUTE] is the base for the 6 + 3 other principles which extend
> > between SPIRIT and the "MATTER." of which our physical body is a
> > representative.
> > 
> > Our Consciousness is ONE. Yet it is said to pierce up and down the 7
> planes
> > of being and serves to uphold the memory of the Souls' experience on any
> > plane and in every state. The vehicle USED BY THIS One Consciousness on
> > any plane or any state of matter, depends on the effort made by the
> > Individual to refine and purify the matter that he uses there in each of
> > those states or planes. 
> > 
> > It seems that our personal life always shields and secretes the moral
> > Chooser who is the eternal PERCEIVER [ATMA-BUDDHI] that resides within. It
> > is the employer of the human Mind [BUDDHI-MANAS], the Psyche [KAMA-MANAS]
> > and Astral-Physical body as its amanuensis. [And these in turn are
> composed
> > of innumerable immortal Monads, each at its appropriate position in this
> > enormous and all encompassing evolutionary scheme [ see S D I 632 ] -- a
> > scheme that is based on an individual balance point of exactitude so
> > sensitive, that any and all deviations from harmony reverberate throughout
> > the vast whole and affect the advance of all the rest. 
> > 
> > If this is true, then nothing is unimportant. The "Moment of Choice" is
> > always Now, and is a moral imperative which no one can escape. 
> > 
> > This is the "magic" or, the WISDOM of the esoteric or that which is called
> > "occult wisdom," and, we may try to begin to grasp some of its parameters.
> 
> > 
> > One might consider that the real "magic" is wisdom and is obtained from
> > within, shunning any exoteric practices or "selfish black-magic"
> whatsoever.
> > 
> > 
> > By focusing on the Divine ATMA within, we allow the spirit-Life (Jiva) of 
> > Divine Universal Compassion and Love to work in us and then we may diffuse
> 
> > it amidst neighbours. kin and the rest of humankind. We may, without
> > personal expectations, serve the processes of the great Law of Karma.
> > 
> > What is TRUTH for us the "embodied minds"? Is it an endless quest ?
> > 
> > If one takes Karma and Reincarnation into account, and the concept that
> the
> > REAL MAN is an eternal Monad, the paradox unravels.
> > 
> > An immortal being [Monad (Atma-Buddhi), such as we all are fundamentally 
> > is not concerned with time -- as it uses many bodies in which to assist
> any 
> > brother Monad (as a reference source) to "perfect" its own Wisdom. This
> for
> > 
> > it, is true independence - without losing any of its own heard-earned
> wisdom
> > and responsibility, it seeks to make of its organism a useful helper in
> > Nature´s continual struggle to provide an equilibrated, harmonious flow of
> > existence, and assist 
> > in the process of general evolution. This is brotherhood in action. 
> > 
> > It seems to be based on the free gift of mutual assistance and service. An
> > example of this kind of sublime SERVICE is offered to us to consider in
> > SECRET DOCTRINE, Vol. I, pp. 207-210. There the nature, function and
> > devotion of a Planetary Spirit is described. 
> > 
> > An impersonal channel of Karma is opened by acting for a just desire, when
> > that is seen in another Yogi´s mind. No personal benefit or acquisition is
> > expected.
> > 
> > This effort marks the evolution and progress of Nature and the important
> > service that each human performs in this process. 
> > 
> > Consider the task as outlined in the SECRET DOCTRINE :
> > 
> > It is the process of lifting the whole mass of "matter" up to the
> > condition, nature and stature of CONSCIOUS GOD-HOOD. 
> > 
> > It is the "gift of mind" passed on by the original and primordial Dhyanis 
> > to the host of Monads that are "ready." Are they thus not encouraged to 
> > assume again the true "Gods" that they were before they plunged 
> > voluntarily again into the experiences of diversified material existence
> > (consisting of those Monads which are now entering the period and process
> of
> > a self-willed development of Manas) where the "maya" of illusion (desires,
> > feelings, passions - Kama makes all that is real appear evanescent and
> > seemingly incomprehensible. 
> > 
> > It appears, when presented with an event or a report, we ought to ask:
> "What
> > caused this ? What Laws are involved? Why am I involved? What should be
> > the ideal reaction?" -- In other words, we have to universalize and
> > impersonalize our concepts. One of the best guides will be fund in the
> > close study of PATANJALI'S YOGA SUTRAS translated by Mr. W. Q. Judge, and
> > The VOICE OF THE SILENCE by H P B . These cause us to delve into causes.
> > 
> > Shall we say: One of the problems is now identified. How do we, as
> > embodied
> > Minds, forced to work in and use a brain of matter [living Monads], view
> the
> > period and
> > condition of our existence beyond the birth and death of the personality
> it
> > is now
> > living in.? It becomes clear that the Personality of this present
> existence
> > has limits to its memories and views, but no limits to its intuitive
> > potentials. These it derives from the immortal and universal fund of
> > "wisdom" 
> > BUDDHI. Buddhi-Manas is then the "link." 
> > 
> > We may well ask ourselves: "How did I derive the knowledge, character and
> > capacities I have surrounding me, the Perceiver and the Thinker, as my
> > abilities and disabilities? We can logically derive their source as having
> > been fashioned in previous lives. 
> > 
> > 
> > Theoretically, may we consider: our INDIVIDUALITY (ATMA-BUDDHI-MANAS)
> > periodically illuminates (when appealed to) with its wisdom the
> Personality
> > -- when this latter seeks for DIVINE WISDOM. All true wisdom comes from
> > within. I (our INDIVIDUALITY) is one with the UNIVERSAL OCEAN of BUDDHIC
> > WISDOM which are manifesting through the great LAWS of KARMA, Evolution
> > and Eternal Life.
> > 
> > Because our embodied mind is a spark of the UNIVERSAL MIND [or MAHAT] --
> > which is an attribute of the ABSOLUTE, there are no barriers that it
> cannot
> > traverse or planes that it may link to, as needed.
> > 
> > We find it taught that the records of the great Buddha's teachings show us
> > that our present limitations and incapacities are explained by the concept
> > of "universal MAYA" -- when the UNIVERSE is in its temporary phase of
> > "manifestation." The "vestures" come and go as ages of experience pass by
> > and we work in and through them - the SELF is always stable and ONE with
> the
> > WHOLE. But why does this occur? Is not the concept of mutual assistance
> and
> > cooperation, bathed in the light of COMPASSION ABSOLUTE, a good basic
> > reason? 
> > 
> > The "maya" is dispersed by the (wisdom) innate to the BUDDHI principle
> (when
> > linked to MANAS). Every component of Nature (the UNIVERSE in
> manifestation)
> > has this as a part of its essential constitution. 
> > 
> > If we can consider using the designation Monad for these innumerable
> > constituents, and grasp the concept that they are of seven "grades" of
> > "primordial differentiation," [S D I 570-575] then the Monad that is in
> > the human stage (or grade), is at present undergoing the trials and
> > tribulations of self-mastery, self-knowledge and learning the unlimited
> > extent of its true responsibility.
> > 
> > To consider that the UNIVERSE, as radiated from the ABSOLUTE operates
> under
> > universal, immutable and compassionate LAWS cannot be demeaning to any
> > Monad, since each is a radiation of the same qualities from that one
> single
> > source? Is it not, for itself, in its essence, an administrator of the
> same
> > universal impersonal and altruistic LAWS? 
> > 
> > Are we not also faced with a seeming paradox, as the material of which our
> > evanescent and mayavic forms are composed are themselves Monads each in
> its
> > own level and place of perfect need. How is this to be regulated in such
> an
> > incomprehensibly vast SPACE where incomprehensibly small units swarm? --
> > Unless each is both a mirror of the grand WHOLE, and in itself, is a
> > UNIVERSE to still more minute forms and aspects of LIFE ? 
> > 
> > It seems this ever existent balancing point of consciousness, intelligence
> > and progress synthesizes the actual work that a period of Manvantaric
> > evolution for the entire WHOLE demands. No wonder that a grasp and
> > comprehension of this as a pattern, a schema, a living WORK is startling
> and
> > almost incomprehensible as our present brain-mind equipment is very much
> > attached to our recent personalities and their very limited experience
> this
> > life around. 
> > 
> > It seems that what we (as human minds) are discovering this fact and
> > beginning to acquire a concept of how responsible we actually are. We not
> > only receive our "karma," but as Spiritual beings, resident in material
> > forms, we are also one of the many out-posts of KARMA - and thus we
> > represent the ever-active LAW of cooperation, benevolence and BROTHERHOOD.
> 
> > 
> > "There is only one Perceiver [ATMA-BUDDHI]; the sights are modified by the
> > channels [ principles ] through which the Perceiver looks...
> > 
> > The power of seeing is the Soul [BUDDHI-MANAS] the power of the Soul [
> > CHOICE, DISCRIMINATION, WILL ] goes into the seeing, hence what It "sees"
> > are to it real, because seen; as sights, each is a reality; 
> > but the nature of the Soul is different from any and all "sights." 
> > 
> > A study of the seven-fold Constitution of Man finds that there is of
> > necessity a constant definition of the relations between any one
> "principle"
> > and the rest, which serve in several cooperative relations to it. Some
> > duplication of references is inevitable. Interactions constantly occur.
> > 
> > The following references to Buddhi and its function as an active link
> > between Atma and Manas in man. They are Buddhi made "active." It has a
> > "passive" aspect as the `vehicle´ (sheath, kosha, sthula) of Atma, without
> > which, Atma would be forever an abstraction to matter.
> > 
> > Yet we find, HPB in the SECRET DOCTRINE, draws attention to a secondary
> base
> > of a "desire" in the aggregation of "Matter." 
> > 
> > "Kama (the Makara-ketu) is "Aja" (the unborn), and "Atma-bhu" (the
> > self-existent), and Aja is the LOGOS in the Rig-Veda, as he is shown
> therein
> > to be the first manifestation of the ONE: "Desire first arose in IT, which
> > was the germ of mind," that "which connects entity with non-entity" (or
> > Manas, the fifth, with Atma, the seventh, esoterically) say the Sages. " S
> > D II 167, Glos 170-1.
> > 
> > This might be called the first stage. 
> > 
> > And we could consider the second, on the following plane of manifestation,
> > that shows Brahma (whom we select as a representative for all the other
> > first gods of the nations) as causing to issue from his body his mind-born
> > sons: "Sanandana and others," who, in the fifth "creation," and again in
> the
> > ninth (for purposes of blind) become the Kumara. " 
> > S D II 578-9
> > 
> > "Let us note one more thing in relation to the mysterious number five. It
> > symbolizes at one and the same time the Spirit of life eternal and the
> > Spirit of life and love terrestrial - in the human compound; and, it
> > includes divine and infernal magic, and the universal and the individual
> > quintessence of being. Thus, the five mystic words or vowels (vide infra)
> > uttered by Brahma at "creation," which forthwith became the Panchadasa
> > (certain Vedic hymns, attributed to that God) are in their creative and
> > magical potentiality, the white side of the black Tantrik five "makaras,"
> or
> > the five m's. "Makara," the constellation, is a seemingly meaningless and
> > absurd name. 
> > 
> > Yet, even besides its [MA] anagrammatical significance in conjunction with
> > the term "Kumara," the numerical value of its first syllable and its
> > esoteric resolution into five has a very great and occult meaning in the
> > mysteries of nature. 
> > 
> > Suffice it to say, that as the sign of Makara is connected with the birth
> of
> > the spiritual "microcosm," and the death or dissolution of the physical
> > Universe (its passage into the realm of the Spiritual) *; so the Dhyan
> > Chohans, called in India Kumara, are connected with both. Moreover, in the
> > exoteric religions, they have become the synonyms of the Angels of
> Darkness.
> > Mara is the God of Darkness, the Fallen One, and Death +; and yet it is
> one
> > of the names of Kama, the first god in the Vedas, the Logos, from whom
> have
> > sprung the Kumaras, and this [ Death of every physical thing truly; but
> Mara
> > is also the unconscious quickener of the birth of the Spiritual. connects
> > them still more with our "fabulous" Indian Makara, ] S D I 580-1
> > 
> > "The five words (Panchadasa) of Brahma have become with the Gnostics the
> > "Five Words" written upon the akasic (shining) garment of Jesus at his
> > glorification: the words ZAMA ZAMA OZZA PAXAMA, OZAI , translated by the
> > Orientalists "the robe, the glorious robe of my strength." 
> > 
> > These words were, in their turn, the anagrammatic blind of the five mystic
> > powers represented on the robe of the "resurrected" Initiate after his
> last
> > trial of three days' trance; the five becoming seven only after his
> > S D I 579-80
> > 
> > I hope this may be of some help,
> > 
> > 
> > Dallas
> > 
> > ================================================
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Cass Silva
> > Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 5:22 PM
> > To: 
> > Subject: Re: Socrates
> > 
> > Thanks Ken, I guess in the words of the master, this seals the debate. I
> am
> > purely speculating here, but I am thinking that the spiritual test of
> > arrogance is whether or not we can silence the daemon to open up to true
> > universal knowledge. That rather than rely on our daemon, we are able to
> > source the true records in the Akashic should we decide that daemon
> doesn't
> > necessarily know everything. It would be a true test of humility letting
> go
> > of a source that ensures we are more knowledgable than the bulk of
> humanity?
> > 
> > On Socrates (M L) :
> > 
> > 
> > "Plato was right to readmit every element of speculation which Socrates
> had
> > discarded. The problems of universal being are not unattainable or
> > worthless if attained." 
> > M L, p 400 Letter 117 Dec. 1883 from KH to Sinnett
> > 
> > 
> > "Suby Ramï¿" truly good man�yet a devotee of another error. Not his
> > guru�s
> > voice�his own. The voice of a pure , unselfish, earnest soul, absorbed
> in
> > misguided, misdirected mysticism. Add to it a chronic disorder in that
> > portion of the brain which responds to clear vision and the secret is soon
> > told: that disorder was developed by forced visions; by hatha yog and
> > prolonged asceticism. S. Ram is the chief medium and at same time the
> > principal magnetic factor, who spreads his disease by
> > infection unconsciously to himself; who inoculates with his vision all the
> > other disciples. There is one general law of vision physical and mental or
> > spiritual) but there is a qualifying special law proving that all vision
> > must be determined by the quality or grade of man�s spirit and soul, and
> > also by the ability to translate diverse qualities of waves of astral
> light
> > into consciousness. There is but one general law of life, but innumerable
> > laws qualify and determine the myriad forms perceived and of sounds heard.
> > There are those who are willingly and others who are unwillingly--blind.
> > Mediums belong to the former, sensitives to the latter. Unless regularly
> > initiated and trained--concerning the spiritual insight of things and the
> > supposed revelations made unto man in all ages from Socrates down to
> > Swedenborg and "Fern"-- no self tutored seer or clairaudient ever saw or
> > heard quite correctly." M L, p.98 letter 31 Nov. 1881 Morya to
> > Sinnett
> > 
> > "Conscience, as it was already remarked may be well compared to that demon
> > whose dictates were so zealously listened to and so promptly obeyed by
> > Socrates. Like that demon, conscience may perchance tell us what we must
> > not do; yet it never guides us as to what we ought to perform, nor gives
> > any definite object to our activety. And�nothing can be more easily
> lulled
> > to sleep and even completely paralyzed, that this same conscience by a
> > trained will stronger than that of its possessor."
> > p. 36 letter 11 K.H. to Hume , Dec. 1880
> > 
> > Ken
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
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