Theos-Talk Archives (May 2006 Message tt00473)

Thank you for the compliment Carlos, but you give me more credit than I am due.  Having ideals is one thing, practically applying them is the key to perfection in my, not so humble, opinion, but it works for me!
Cass

carlosaveline <carlosaveline@terra.com.br> wrote: Cass,

Thanks. 

But, who says ideals NEVER lead to truth? 

Did you yourself "decree" it? 

Theosophy recomends the "ideal of human perfection". And so on. 

Take a look, for instance, in the GOLDEN STAIRS (BCW, vol XII). 

Have you heard about Plato? Good reading. Plotino, too. 


Regards,  Carlos. 


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C�pia:

Data:Thu, 11 May 2006 20:25:22 -0700 (PDT)

Assunto:[Spam] Re: Theos-World Theosophy and the U. N.

> But Carlos, these are "ideals" and "ideals" never lead to the truth.
> Cass
> 
> carlosaveline wrote: 
> 
> Sufilight,
> 
> 
> Thanks a lot for your commentaries.
> 
> I will tell you what I see in World Goddwil's ideas that is useful.
> 
> It is their premises, their starting point: the basic ideas that:
> 
> a) the esoteric movement can be conscious of its responsibility with the future of mankind;
> 
> b) that the future of m,ankind is bright, in spite of crisis.
> 
> It goes implicitly that as esotericists forget about their co-responsibility wirh regard to mankind, they get hypnotized by their own organizational or personal navels, so to say.
> 
> But as they emerge from personal mayas and think of mankind, their vision sight gets brighter.
> 
> This is the positive contribution I see in Alice Bailey's texts. And perhaps I should mention World Godwill's commitment to universal brotherhood, human rights and the United Nations (as a long-term project). 
> 
> As to their precise analysis, everone should make better ones !! 
> 
> We should NOT leave themes as the future of mankind to persons like 
> George Walker or Bin Laden, if you know what I mean. 
> 
> Some theosophists are so busy "being" saints, or scholars, that they can't think of anything else. 
> 
> I hope I clarified. Goals, premises and principles are of the essence in Occultism. 
> 
> Regards, Carlos. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> C�pia:
> 
> Data:Wed, 10 May 2006 23:10:42 +0200
> 
> Assunto:[Spam] Re: Theos-World Sufilight, Hitler and the U.N.
> 
> > Hallo Carlos and all,
> > 
> > My views are:
> > 
> > Allright I will write a more detailed e-mail.
> > 
> > 
> > 1. The Newsletter by the Arcane Group.
> > 
> > Carlos wrote:
> > "I got your suggestion and took a look at World Goodwill/Arcane School text, 
> > but failed to see your point. "
> > 
> > This is the newsletter:
> > http://www.lucistrust.org/goodwill/nl/2003/2/index.shtml
> > 
> > a) First example.
> > Let me quote the following from the text of the newsletter:
> > "We did not rush blindly into war; instead it was considered deliberately 
> > and passionately by all the many members of the world community 
> > demonstrating a noble attempt to solve this problem in a more enlightened 
> > way. And although we seemingly failed, nonetheless a process was initiated."
> > 
> > By using the word "We" and "we", I think the writer and the Arcane group
> > is way out of line. I wonder why these two sentences was implemented in the 
> > newsletter?
> > 
> > b) Second example:
> > Also this one from the same newsletter:
> > "That is not to say that force is never justified for, as we well know, the 
> > transition period through which we are manoeuvring is fraught with 
> > tremendous difficulties of which we are all too vividly aware. The terrorist 
> > threat does not yield to facile or immediate solutions. And as much as we 
> > might long for the cessation of warfare, due to the dangerous world in which 
> > we live there are times when it is justified. "
> > 
> > We will have to remember the year and day, this newsletter was published.
> > It was published year 2003 when the war on Iraq was started.
> > When I read the above quote and consider when it was published, I only find 
> > it to be a jesuistic justification supporting the invasion of Bhagdad.
> > Why else implement these sentences in the newsletter?
> > 
> > c)
> > About your refrence to a later newsletter by the Alice A. Bailey's.
> > Yes. They perhaps read my emails here at theos-talk which I posted earlier 
> > on in 2003 about these very same issues. And then they realised their 
> > mistakes.
> > 
> > The indefatigable fools at Lucis Trust do not understand, that the world 
> > needs - firstly to stop this silly idea about nationality, when we talk 
> > about creating peace on this planet. Secondy, No nation is an island. And 
> > thirdly, - Dictatorship or non-democratic Priesthood is not an option 
> > anymore, beacuse people very easily can create a nuclear bomb. The world has 
> > to mobilise these views. And we can only do our best in this time of hour.
> > And I do not understand why your below reference should be anything but an 
> > attempt to simply water down the bad mistakes in the above earlier 
> > newsletter.
> > Carlos newsletter reference:
> > http://www.lucistrust.org/goodwill/nl/2003/2/2003nl2_p3.shtml
> > 
> > I agree, that most Alice A. Bailey followers do mean well, and that is very 
> > good.
> > If they just were more motivated to pull that stupid Christian branch out of 
> > their own eyes, so that they could
> > see the Middle Eastern part of the planet with the eyes of the Sufis. Oh 
> > what a waste of Newsmedia-heads!
> > 
> > 
> > 2. The Alice A. Bailey texts are a problem today 2006
> > 
> > We will have to understand the problems the Alice A. Bailey texts creates 
> > today in our present informations society of global cultural awareness. It 
> > is quite important to understand, that only a very few Seekers from the 
> > Middle East appreciates the books written by Alice A. Bailey, with their 
> > heavy use of Christian-like vocabulary. To promote such books on the 
> > Internet are not very helpful in these days with western and Middle Eastern 
> > tensions.
> > 
> > Try this
> > Alice A. Bailey's: Esoteric Psychology
> > ********************
> > "Every great religion which arises is under the influence of one or other of 
> > the rays, but it does not necessarily follow that each successive ray should 
> > have a great far-reaching religion as its outcome. We have heard that 
> > Brahmanism is the last great religion which arose under first ray influence; 
> > we do not know what may have been the religion which was the outcome of the 
> > last second ray period; but the Chaldean, the Egyptian and the Zoroastrian 
> > religions may be taken as representing the third, the fourth, and the fifth 
> > rays respectively. Christianity and probably Buddhism were the result of 
> > sixth ray influence. Mohammedanism, which numbers so large a following, is 
> > also under sixth ray influence, but it is not a great root religion, being a 
> > hybrid offshoot of Christianity with the tinge of Judaism."
> > (Esoteric Psychology vol. 1 - 1936 , page 167)
> > http://laluni.helloyou.ws/netnews/bk/psychology1/psyc1050.html
> > 
> > And Alice A. Baileys use of the word "NOT" in the above has been given
> > (uppercase) emphasis by me !
> > I somehow fail to understand that such a message could be compassionate 
> > today year 2006.
> > 
> > As long as the Middle East with its rich symbolical and esoterical teachings
> > are being trampled upon in the name of western prejudice about this 
> > culture -
> > by some pet-Bible books of a nature which is swarmed by Christian
> > vocabulary, (books written by Alice A. Bailey and a supposed 5th initiate),
> > how can anyone justify such teachings as being valid theosophy and giving
> > the Seekers after Wisdom and Truth a proper WORLD VIEW ?
> > The age old Secret Doctrine by Blavatsky is struggleing because it was 
> > written
> > with a European audience in mind. - This was somthing one of the
> > Mahatmas stated in a letter to A. P. Sinnett.
> > And because it was not written with a more global audience in mind, it is 
> > beginning
> > to struggle with time. It is not anymore that adequate a script to use if 
> > one has a global
> > adience in mind, and not only an european.
> > 
> > 
> > 3. Important knowledge about the Alice A. Bailey books today year 2006.
> > 
> > I - The Bailey books are not a balanced multicultural presentation on
> > Theosophy.
> > II - The Bailey books have a heavy use of Christian vocabulary.
> > The bad consequences of this will show itself in the present information
> > society.
> > III - The Middle East is hardly mentioned in the books, but the Christian
> > religion gets a whole lot of coverage.
> > IV - The books were NOT intended for a Middle Eastern audience. Today
> > communication is rapid - due to the Internet. The audience is different
> > today. And the physical world has changed.
> > V - Bailey groups are connected with work at The United Nations,
> > Headquarters. Because of that they are politically involved, and that on an
> > international level.
> > VI - True theosophical or esoteric teachings are always taking time, place, 
> > people,
> > circumstances, teacher and audience into account. The Alice A. Bailey books 
> > are
> > dangerous and irrelevant to a global audience on the Internet.
> > VII -This is today some of the problems the books of Bailey creates in 
> > TODAYS
> > international information society, where there are clearly visible
> > political tensions between the Western politicians and The Middle Eastern 
> > ones."
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 4. About Bailey and World War II.
> > Ok. Your point is taken to heart. But nevertheless...
> > 
> > I would be hesitate about stating that Alice A. Bailey was clearly anti 
> > Hitler in her books. Some of the earliere books by Bailey, have their 
> > content heavily marked by Hitler's influence upon the world. In her later 
> > books she was anti-Hitler, Yes I agree. And when viewing all her books - all 
> > in all - I would say, that she was clearly not 100% anti-Hitler.
> > Try to read Alice A. Bailey's: Esoteric Psychology vol. I. In it you will 
> > find references to the jews forwarded in a manner, which are not taking the 
> > jew racism theories of Hitler into account, they rather support them between 
> > the lines. This book was published in 1936 ! Only 3 years
> > before that, Hitler was named Reich Chancellor of Germany. His racism-like 
> > politics was already leaning on Christianity, which he and his friends later
> > rejected. And remember - that the atmosphere of racism was growing in EU and 
> > even in USA near the years 1933-36. This should at least tell you something. 
> > When Hitler later on got too ugly to the Alice A. Bailey taste and mindset, 
> > she wrote differently and clearly stated her views about this facist. 
> > However, a beginner Seeker or a scholar might get confused while reading the 
> > below quotes.
> > 
> > The chronology of the creation of the books at least gives one good reason 
> > to adopt this impression. And because of this - the book or books which were 
> > available in 1936 had great possibilities of being misunderstood. We are at 
> > least talking about the years 1936-1942 as being problematic. Even the book 
> > White Magic (1934) contains faults, something Alice A. Bailey later admitted 
> > in her book Esoteric Healing.
> > 
> > 
> > A quote about the Shamballa force:
> > "In the second group of changing ideologies and of reaction to mass need, 
> > you will find France, Germany, Italy, Spain and Portugal, all of whom have 
> > altered their ancient policies, changed their forms of government and 
> > reacted gradually and slowly to the Shamballa force. They have, however, 
> > reacted to that force through the medium of certain great and outstanding 
> > personalities who were peculiarly sensitive to the will-to-power and the 
> > will-to-change and who (during the past 150 years) have altered the 
> > character of their national life, and emphasized increasingly the wider 
> > human values. The men who inspired the initiating French revolution; the 
> > great conqueror, Napoleon; Bismarck, the creator of a nation; Mussolini, the 
> > regenerator of his people; Hitler who lifted a distressed people upon his 
> > shoulders; Lenin, the idealist, Stalin and Franco are all expressions of the 
> > Shamballa force and of certain little understood energies. These have 
> > wrought significant changes in their day and generation and altered the face 
> > of Europe, incidentally affecting Asia and conditioning attitudes and 
> > policies in America."
> > http://laluni.helloyou.ws/netnews/bk/externalisation/exte1054.html
> > (The Externalization of the Hierarchy - 1947/1957, page 133)
> > 
> > The Jews in 1936:
> > "In connection with the nations and the rays I want now to indicate to you 
> > certain fundamental conditions which partially account for the (so-called) 
> > Jewish problem, - a problem which has existed for centuries, and which is, 
> > at this time, causing the deepest possible concern to many, including 
> > members of the planetary Hierarchy. If this problem can be solved, it will 
> > be one of the potent factors in the restoration of world understanding and 
> > harmony."
> > ... and ...reading further...
> > "
> > 1.. The Semitic race or races of Biblical and modern times; the Arabs, the 
> > Afghans, the Moors and the offshoots and affiliations of those peoples, 
> > including the modern Egyptians. These are all descended from the eldest of 
> > the three disciples.
> > 2.. The Latin peoples and their various branches throughout the world, and 
> > also the Celtic races wherever found. These are descended from the second of 
> > the three disciples.
> > 3.. The Teutons, the Scandinavians, and the Anglo-Saxons, who are the 
> > descendants of the third of the three disciples."
> > (Esoteric Psychology vol. 1 - 1936 , page 394-5)
> > http://laluni.helloyou.ws/netnews/bk/psychology1/psyc1121.html
> > 
> > The Jews in 1947:
> > "Let us look for a moment at the situation of the Jews, prior to the bitter 
> > and unpardonable attack made upon them by Hitler and prior to the war 
> > 1939-1945. They were to be found in every land and claimed citizenship in 
> > every country; within the nation of their birth, they preserved intact their 
> > own racial identity, their own peculiar way of life, their own national 
> > religion (which is everybody's privilege) and a close adherence to those of 
> > their own race. Other groups have done this but to a much lesser degree and 
> > have been eventually absorbed and assimilated by the land of their 
> > citizenship. The Jews have always constituted a nation within a nation, 
> > though this has been less marked in Great Britain, Holland, France and Italy 
> > than elsewhere, and therefore, in none of these countries has there been any 
> > strong anti-Semitic feeling."
> > (Problems of Humanity - 1947, page 96)
> > http://laluni.helloyou.ws/netnews/bk/problems/prob1042.html
> > 
> > 
> > The stimulation of dictators:
> > "The force pouring through Darjeeling at this time is that of the first Ray 
> > of Will or Power. The soul ray of India is the first ray and hence the 
> > immediate effect of the inpouring Shamballa force is to stimulate the 
> > will-to-power of all dictators, whether they are the would-be world 
> > dictators such as Hitler and his group of evil men, ecclesiastical dictators 
> > in any religion, business dictators in any business group in any part of the 
> > world, or those minor dictators, the tyrants in the home."
> > (The Destiny of the Nations - 1949, page 98)
> > http://laluni.helloyou.ws/netnews/bk/destiny/dest1045.html
> > 
> > 
> > I hold it to be true, that the quotes from the Alice A. Bailey books in the 
> > above tell their own tale about, what theosophical beginner Seekers and 
> > Scholars of various religious backgrounds are being offered on the Internet 
> > today year 2006.
> > 
> > 
> > 5. So very important: The use of ideas, FOR INSTANCE BOOKS and WRITTEN
> > MATERIAL of ALL sorts is to shape a man and woman, and their 
> > thought-patterns,
> > not to support a system - which is viewed in a limited manner. This is one 
> > way in
> > which the Wisdom Tradition is 'living', and not just the perpetuations of 
> > ideas and movements
> > - LIKE FOR INSTANCE THE THEOSOPHICAL SOCIETY or a ALICE A. BAILEY GROUP.
> > This seems important to understand and know about.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > from
> > M. Sufilight with peace and love...and feeling like the ugly duckling...
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "carlosaveline" 
> > To: "theos-talk" 
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 5:31 PM
> > Subject: Theos-World Sufilight, Hitler and the U.N.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Sufilight, Friends,
> > 
> > Thanks for your commentaries.
> > 
> > We all must be careful in the search for truth.
> > 
> > I got your suggestion and took a look at World Goodwill/Arcane School text, 
> > but failed to see your point.
> > 
> > My own point is that Alice Bailey was and her followers are pro-democracy 
> > and anti-Hitler. I understand this is a fact.
> > 
> > As to an assessment of Alice Bailey's work from an occult and esoteric view, 
> > well, that is another issue. I have read the various critical studies 
> > extant -- Victor Endersby, Alice Cleather and so on. But this was not my 
> > point. If we were to examine some of the occult views present in A. Bailey's 
> > books, it should be made with care, calm, and in a documented way.
> > 
> > My point was limited to Hitler and the II World War, and to democracies x 
> > Nazi-Fascism with regard to theosophists, OK?
> > 
> > 
> > As to the positive side of World Goodwill/Arcane School, I guess they got 
> > the long term importance of the United Nations. They are helping the birth 
> > of a planetary citizenship. Which is an essential task. Planetary 
> > citizenship is an aspect of universal brotherhood.
> > 
> > The theosophical movement should be able to provide other steps in the 
> > awakening we are living.
> > 
> > Do we feel co-responsible for humanity's next steps?
> > 
> > The co-responsibility exists. Are we conscious of it?
> > 
> > Best regards, Carlos.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > 
> > C�pia:
> > 
> > Data:Mon, 8 May 2006 18:58:26 +0200
> > 
> > Assunto:Re: Theos-World A. HITLER AND THE MOVEMENT
> > 
> > > Hallo Carlos and all,
> > >
> > > My views are:
> > >
> > > I am a sort of careful creature.
> > >
> > > Carlos wrote:
> > > "Considering the facts mentioned above, it is not difficult to arrive to 
> > > at
> > > least one conclusion. Whatever criticisms one may have with regard to this
> > > or that theosophical organization, it is a simple matter of common sense 
> > > to
> > > admit that all of the movement is naturally and intrinsically in favour of
> > > liberty and democracy, and against any disrespect for human life. The
> > > movement has an inherent tendency towards universal brotherhood."
> > >
> > > To me this is a questionable conclusion when we talk about the Alice A.
> > > Bailey's of today, or shall we say yesterday.
> > > Try for instance to read the following link from their website. It was
> > > written when the bombs started flying around in Bhagdad:
> > > http://www.lucistrust.org/goodwill/nl/2003/2/index.shtml (May 2003)
> > >
> > > I do not find the Arcane group that peaceful in the direction mentioned in
> > > the above conclusion Carlos emailed. No certainly not!
> > > The content of that newletter smells just way too much of Jesuitism.
> > > Others, especially those not interested in the problems of Jesuitsm, will 
> > > of
> > > course disagree.
> > >
> > >
> > > from
> > > M. Sufilight with peace and love...
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > > From: "carlosaveline"
> > > To: "theos-talk"
> > > Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 2:49 PM
> > > Subject: Theos-World A. HITLER AND THE MOVEMENT
> > >
> > >
> > > ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> > >
> > >
> > > NAZISM, FASCISM AND THE THEOSOPHICAL
> > > MOVEMENT DURING THE WORLD WAR II
> > >
> > >
> > > Carlos Cardoso Aveline
> > >
> > > ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> > >
> > > Dear Friends,
> > >
> > > A new book -- "Unholy Alliance: A History of Nazi Involvement With the
> > > Occult", by Peter Levenda -- accuses the theosophical movement of having

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