Theos-Talk Archives (May 2006 Message tt00123)

Daniel:

I'm wondering if you could specify for readers on 
Theos-Talk
what you are referring to when you write about the 
ULT
publishing "falsehoods about Purucker and 
Tingley"?

A few examples would help readers to understand 
your point.
I for one would like to know what you consider 
"falsehoods".

Also what "ULT" texts are you referring to?

I see that Carlos is recommending a ULT text when 
he writes:

"Other books are also useful.'The Theosophical 
Movement', published
by ULT associates, is unfortunately unavaible as 
long as I know."

Frank, do you believe that these above mentioned 
falsehoods are in
this book mentioned by Carlos?


Frank:
I am in a hurry now, but yes, I mean this book for 
example.
They still sell it.
Other ugly and untrue things they published in 
their magazine about Purucker.
You have on your website.

It shows a narrow-minded attitude about occult 
laws.
A kind of Theravada theosophy, the ULT texts being 
a kind of Pali canon on which they stick and 
reject any Mahayana theosophy doctrines, like that 
of tulkus and messengers.

Daniel:
Moving on.

I'm sure a number of readers have noticed that 
Carlos is almost
constantly referring to "slanders," "lies" and 
"falsehoods."

Notice just one of Carlos' recent postings where 
he writes:

"I invite Daniel to stop circulating the old
slandes which he knows all too well to be pure
lies."

"I hope I clarified my point.  I feel the same 
with
regard to Paul Johnson, Katinka Hesselink, John
Algeo and others who propagate falsehoods."

Now the question that comes to my mind is:

Frank, I wonder if you use the term "falsehoods" 
the way Carlos uses
the term.

Frank:
It is not always clear to me in which way Carlos 
uses the terms.
I would have to meditate about that.
To me a falsehood is a statement which is 
objective untrue.

Daniel:

For example, do you consider the following 
testimony given by Robert
Crosbie about Mrs. Katherine Tingley to be in the 
category of
slanders, lies and/or falsehoods?

Here is Mr. Crosbie's testimony:

"...I went to Point Loma at Mrs. Tingley's urgent 
request to assist
in the proposed work, and was there for two years, 
helping to
prepare the way for the expected developments. . . 
. I am slow to
turn back from any task I have set myself, and am 
prone to excuse
inconsistencies and deviation in others, so that 
although I had
begun to doubt, and to see, it was more than a 
year afterwards
before I saw so clearly and unmistakably that I 
took occasion to
tell Mrs. T. the facts as I saw them, and to state 
my intention to
withdraw from all connection with her. She tried 
of course in every
way to change my determination, but finding me 
unchangeable, she let
me go, and as I afterwards heard, gave out that 
she had sent me away
for "bad conduct" - just what I do not know.  This 
of course,
to "save her own face" as the Chinese say. I am 
quite will aware of
her capacities in the above direction form the 
history of others who
had discovered her real character, and left; there 
is no slander too
low or mean for her to use in such cases to 
justify herself. Sorry
as I am to say it, such is the character of 
Katherine Tingley, the
Leader of the Theosophical Movement Throughout the 
World, as she
styles herself - (there is more of it that is 
simply too nauseating
to write.) It was a hard schooling for me, but it 
had its good uses
and effects. I feel no enmity towards her; I truly 
pity her and
would help her do right any time it might be in my 
power. I also
feel most deeply towards those who are held in 
mental bondage by
her; but nothing can be done - they must open 
their own eyes, they
mare not in a condition to have them opened by 
anyone else...."

"She will also speak in Belasco Theater on Sunday 
eve on "Some
Practical Lessons in Human Life", and will 
doubtless present a fair
picture to the mind's eye; and yet she is as I 
have said. Those who
see these pictures would not believe anything 
different from what
they see - and she knows it, and preys upon the 
best and noblest in
human nature for her own ends. I tremble for the 
Karma she
invokes. . . . "

Pretty strong words!  Are Crosbie's words 
slanderous?

Frank:
At least he erred. But as I did not knew him, I 
cannot say whether he lied or not.
As in the similar cases of Hartmann, Dunlop etc. I 
would rather say they believed what they reported 
about their quarrels with KT, but it is not THE 
TRUTH - it's only their biased, personal truth.
In best case a kind of pledge fever and the 
unfoldment of past mental karma.

Daniel:
And notice that Crosbie even accuses Mrs. Tingley 
of
being "slanderous":

"...there is no slander too low or mean for her to 
use.."

Frank:
So far as I have researched I never found a false 
word by KT.
Carlos here used the same method as Besant did.
When KT attacked Besant's wrong actions and 
interpretations and new, wrong inventions of the 
teachings (to be discriminated from new, but true 
teachings), Besant replies always that KT would 
hate her.
In other words, spiritual and intellectual 
criticism was transformed down to the emotional, 
psychic kamical level.

OTOH, Carlos is basicly right in some of his 
criticism of the HPB-Letters edition and I find 
myself so far in a middle position between Daniel 
and Carlos.

Daniel:
I also wonder what Carlos' reaction would be if 
Mr. Crosbie had used
those identical words (quoted above) to describe 
Madame Blavatsky?

If this was a description of HPB, would Carlos 
call it:  slanders,
lies, falsehoods?

Frank:
That question makes much sense.
It shows that all depends on the own view and the 
acceptance of a teacher.

Daniel:
In fact there are descriptions of HPB by certain 
individuals which
sound similar in description and tone to what Mr. 
Crosbie says about
Mrs. Tingley.

Now notice that Carlos accuses Katinka Hesselink 
of "propagating
falsehoods." [See his text above.]

He does not specify in this posting of his exactly 
what he is
referring to in regards to Katinka.

But it should be noted that the complete 
transcript of Mr. Crosbie's
testimony about Mrs. Tingley is published on 
Katinka's website at:

http://www.katinkahesselink.net/his/dtb_7.htm#bionotes

So is Katinka guilty of circulating slanders, lies 
and falsehoods
about Mrs. Tingley?

What is your "take" on this Frank?


Frank:
Katinka just published what Crosbie said.
She is not responsible of any falsehoods which 
might be in the text.
It is the duty of every theosophist to help to 
clear any quarrels and falsehoods.
And making the fellow-theosophists able to have 
access to such texts is a virtue, not a crime.

OTOH, in a book like HPB-Letters the insertion of 
false letters without much discrimination for the 
average reader is misleading.
They were better included in an extra chapter or 
appendix.
But the foe letters must be included for the 
record and for the conduct of future generations.

Think only about the clambake of the Judas gospel 
etc.
Historian of the future will know anything about 
and around  HPB and not only a selection.

I have similar quarrels here with my archives, for 
which I collect ALL theosophical stuff, with no 
distinction to which sect it belongs.
The one forces me not to collect Point Loma 
stuff - otherwise I am a dugpa.
The next one force me not to collect ITV 
(Hartmann) stuff, the next one says: Nothing from 
TGD (Hartmann, too!)
And nothing from Leadbeater, and nothing from this 
and that.
In other words: If I would like to satisfy each 
sect I would have nothing.

But the good news is that I have just heard from 
our elder and wise theosophist that we need no 
archives, as it is the aim of each theosophical 
generation to begin anew.
And if I continue with my dugpa work of re-buying 
what the TS'ies bring to the 
secondhand-book-seller, I am against the Masters 
will, I hinder the next generation to start from 
the beginning!!!
So if you would like to hear Masters voice you 
should first bomb down any theosophical library 
you know of!

The German presidents have come in close contact 
to the Masters and have over-fulfilled what they 
regard as their duty!

BTW, have you been satisfied withe my quick reply 
to your question about the quote on Hartmann?
Was it not Olcott who conspired at HPB against 
Hartmann according to her later regrets?

I'm gonna run.
Best
Frank