Theos-Talk Archives (April 2006 Message tt00654)

Dear Friends,

As I wrote before, I have no attachment to outer words and can perfectly renounce the word "attack", adopting the term "criticism". Criticism is better. 

As to vows, it is of no use to get Robert Crosbie's written vows in their  dead letter and ignore their living spirit.  

I have the hope Daniel will some day understand that inner or real vows, although they may be made using outer words, are subject to the constant examination and re-examination of one's own HEART and CONSCIENCE. Someone could, and should, have told him about that.  Sometimes, excessive secrecy backfires and creates unnecessary criticism from people who do not have the actual experience of things.   

The matter of the fact is that --- all  kinds of daily tests try to freeze our commitments in life, whatever they are. 

It is our heart and our loyalty to the spirit, not to form of our intentions,   which make us update our life commitments -- sometimes in radical ways --  in order to remain LOYAL TO OURSELVES. Loyalty to Masters can only be a by-product, so to say, of loyalty to ourselves, which is the main stuff.  Discipleship, lay or otherwise, can only operate THROUGH the AUTONOMY of the learner. 

Having no experience with the heart of the movement, Daniel thinks vows are controlled by their dead letter.  This is so only in Vatican-inspired circles, with their blind obedience vows, etc. 

The true VOW is wordless.  

One could say it has an analogical  connection with Plotinus' hypostasis (in Neoplatonism).  

The substance in itself of a COMMITMENT TO HIGHER LIFE is not a thing of the left brain, which works with words.  Only in its secondary and terciary hypostasis or levels of reality a true VOW or COMMITMENT TO LIFE UNIVERSAL  can be expressed in words.  Words change, the commitment is much more than one-life  long. 

Therefore, as we see in the "Mahatma Letters"  many a lay disciple never heard of HPB or the Masters, etc.  Words are not facts, and facts can exist -- wordless!!

Thanks to Daniel Caldwell for the opportunity to explain the difference between Vatican-inspired, blind-obedience vows and true, living vows to one's own higher self.  

Best regards, Carlos Cardoso Aveline 
 

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Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Cópia:

Data:Mon, 24 Apr 2006 20:33:46 -0000

Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World Attack or Criticism of Robert Crosbie

> Actually I think quite highly of
> Mr. Crosbie. I am thankful that
> Mr. Crosbie founded both the ULT
> and THEOSOPHY magazine. That is
> why I recommended that Kessinger
> reprint the early volumes of THEOSOPHY
> magazine.
> 
> I even bought a used copy of the
> original Volume I of THEOSOPHY
> magazine and sent it to Kessinger
> and said here it is please reprint it.
> 
> See:
> 
> Theosophy Magazine: Reprints of Volumes I-IV
> http://blavatskyarchives.com/theosophymag.htm
> 
> I'm sure Carlos will view this as some kind
> of an "attack"!! :)
> 
> Or consider my "attack" here on the Theosophy Co.:
> 
> Recommended Blavatsky Books from the Theosophy Company
> http://blavatskyarchives.com/theosohyco.htm
> 
> But it is true I can be critical of some of the
> publications of the Theosophy Company. For example:
> 
> Reprint of A Modern Panarion by the Theosophy Company
> http://blavatskyarchives.com/modernpanarion.htm
> 
> But having said all of the above, is Carlos suggesting
> that the independent student, the independent researcher
> should just accept at face value any and all statements
> made by Mr. Crosbie or about Mr. Crosbie?
> 
> Take this statement made in the pages of Theosophy magazine
> after Crosbie died:
> 
> "Robert Crosbie preserved unbroken the link of the Second [Esoteric]
> Section of the Theosophical Movement from the passing of Mr. Judge
> in 1896, and in 1907 - just eleven years later - made that link once
> more Four Square amongst men. In the year 1909 the Third Section was
> restored by the formation of the United Lodge of
> Theosophists....There is always one Witness on the scene. After the
> death of Mr Judge, Robert Crosbie kept the link unbroken."
> Theosophy magazine, August, 1919.
> 
> Now is this a factual statement? Should we just beleive it
> because it is in THEOSOPHY magazine?
> 
> Did Mr. Crosbie really keep the link unbroken? And how do the
> writers know that?
> 
> Dr. Stokes who was a frank commentator on Theosophicl history had
> some interesting comments on this statement. I will try to find
> them and post them later.
> 
> But exactly what was Mr. Crosbie doing between 1896 when Judge died
> and for most of the years up to 1907. Well, readers might want to
> know that Mr. Crosbie was basically defending and promoting Mrs.
> Tingley and her claims to be the unbroken link after Judge died.
> 
> Read Mr. Crosbie's own words:
> 
> Robert Crosbie on Katherine Tingley
> http://blavatskyarchives.com/stokescrosbie.htm
> 
> Here is what Mr. Crosbie said as late as 1902:
> 
> =====================================================
> ". . . We who have the privilege of assembling at this place and
> taking part in this ceremony of sweet and grateful remembrance---
> know that the establishment of this great Center [by Mrs. Tingley at
> Point Loma, California] is a realization of what William Q. Judge
> lived for, worked for, hoped for, and we cannot but feel deep in our
> hearts that he knows and rejoices with us today.
> 
> We feel that he knows of the self-sacrificing efforts made by the
> faithful ones, and that those efforts have been called forth by his
> chosen successor [Mrs. Tingley], of whom he said, "she is true as
> steel, as clear as diamond, and as lasting as time."
> 
> By her work has she [Mrs. Tingley] shown to all men her fitness to
> demonstrate the principles laid down by H.P. Blavatsky and W.Q.
> Judge, by making them practical in the daily life of mankind.
> 
> Her [Mrs. Tingley's] work and our work stand today as an offering of
> gratitude and love to that noble soul and loving human heart, whom
> we knew as W.Q. Judge."
> ========================================================
> 
> Notice what Mr. Crosbie said above in 1902 about Mrs. Tingley and
> Judge:
> 
> ===================================================
> We feel that he [Judge] knows of the self-sacrificing efforts made
> by the faithful ones, and that those efforts have been called forth
> by his chosen successor [Mrs. Tingley], of whom he said, [in
> his 'occult diary'] "she is true as steel, as clear as diamond, and
> as lasting as time."
> =======================================================
> 
> So did Mr. Crosbie know what he was talking about when he said this
> in 1902 or did he know what he was talking about when he totally
> reversed himself in a document written only 5 years later:
> 
> =====================================================
> She tried of course in every way to change my determination, but
> finding me unchangeable, she let me go, and as I afterwards heard,
> gave out that she had sent me away for "bad conduct" - just what I
> do not know. This of course, to "save her own face" as the Chinese
> say. I am quite will aware of her capacities in the above direction
> form the history of others who had discovered her real character,
> and left; there is no slander too low or mean for her to use in such
> cases to justify herself. Sorry as I am to say it, such is the
> character of Katherine Tingley, the Leader of the Theosophical
> Movement Throughout the World, as she styles herself - (there is
> more of it that is simply too nauseating to write.) It was a hard
> schooling for me, but it had its good uses and effects. I feel no
> enmity towards her; I truly pity her and would help her do right any
> time it might be in my power. I also feel most deeply towards those
> who are held in mental bondage by her; but nothing can be done -
> they must open their own eyes, they mare not in a condition to have
> them opened by anyone else.
> =====================================================
> 
> Some serious students of Blavatsky and Tingley have suggested that
> this shows he became a "victim" of pledge-fever. He took a pledge
> to Mrs. Tingley in 1897 which reads:
> 
> ======================================================
> "I . . . recognizing the person called Purple [Mrs. Tingley] as
> being the agent of the Master I serve . . . do hereby unreservedly
> pledge myself, by my Higher Self, to unquestioning loyalty, devotion
> and obedience to her and to her support and defence as such agent,
> under any and all circumstances and conditions to the extent of my
> available means, utmost exertion, and with my life if need be. . . .
> 
> So Help me my Higher Self.
> 
> (Signed) Robert Crosbie
> 
> Witness my hand, this 22d day of May, Eighteen hundred and Ninety-
> seven."
> ======================================================
> 
> Some students say that he "failed" and as a result of that failure,
> turned against Mrs. Tingley.
> 
> I am not saying I believe this or disbelieve it.
> 
> And I am NOT suggesting that Mr. Crosbie was insincere when he
> supported Mrs. Tingley or that he was insincere when he rejected her
> claims. He may have believed whatever he said and when he said it
> and, of course, persons have the right to change their minds.
> 
> But if one can question statements made by Mrs. Besant, Mr.
> Leadbeater, Mrs. Tingley, Mrs. Bailey then why not Mr. Crosbie?
> 
> They may have all been sincere in their pronouncements but all of
> them or some of them may have been equally wrong or deluded.
> 
> Remember what the Masters said about various individuals and ask if
> these statements might have some applications to later individuals:
> 
> ------------------------------------
> 
> "[Rai Salig Ram is] — a truly good man — yet a devotee of another
> error. Not his guru's voice — his own. The voice of a pure,
> unselfish, earnest soul, absorbed in misguided, misdirected
> mysticism."
> ------------------------------------
> 
> "You have scarcely learned the elements of self-control in
> psychism. . . . Your vivid creative fancy [imagination] evokes
> illusive Gurus and chelas, and puts into their mouths words coined
> the instant before in the mint of your mind, unknown to yourself.
> The false appears as real, as the true, and you have no exact method
> of detection, since you are yet prone to force your communications
> to agree with your preconceptions...."
> -------------------------------
> 
> ". . . So is Jesus and John the Baptist [clearly visible and
> audible] to Edward Maitland; [who is] as true and as honest and
> sincere as S.M. . . . And does not E. Maitland see Hermes the first
> and second and Elijah, etc."
> 
> "Finally does not Mrs. [Anna] Kingsford feel as sure as S.M. with
> regard to ... [Imperator] that she saw and conversed with
> God!! . . . And who purer or more truthful than that woman or
> Maitland!"
> 
> "Mystery, mystery will you exclaim. IGNORANCE we answer; the
> creation of that we believe in and want to see. . . . "
> ----------------------------------------------------
> 
> Whether these statements might also be applied to some of the later
> individuals, such as Mrs. Besant or Mr. Leadbeater or Mrs. Tingley
> or Mr. Crosbie, I would suggest that the thoughtful independent
> student who wants to think thru the issues for himself (herself) and
> not just naively accept what any theosophical group might promote,
> would carefully consider all of this. Whether he can come to any
> certain decision or not is left for each student to decide.
> 
> And if the ULT in its archives has relevant documents that will
> throw additional light on this subject, then I encourage the ULT to
> release those documents for independent researchers. And I applaud
> Carlos your call for the Adyar TS to release documents that would
> throw additional light on the Judge case. Other archives should be
> encouraged to follow suit by allowing researchers and students to
> have access to relevant documents on Judge, Tingley and Crosbie.
> 
> No present day student who believes in the motto: "There is no
> religion higher than Truth" could possibly object or fear the
> release of all relevant documents which will allow seekers of truth
> to understand better what all of these historical events were and
> what was true or not true.
> 
> Daniel
> http://hpb.cc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yahoo! Groups Links
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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