Theos-Talk Archives (April 2006 Message tt00407)

Dear Jerry,


I hope you are able to pay atention to what I am going to write.

I do not care about your personal emotions of anger and frustration, or whatever you call them. 

Now or later, you will probably get to see that I really do not care about them.  Then you will calm down, or 
not -- it is up to you.   

I will put this in numbered items.

1) Everything I write in Theos-talk is naturally open to examination and correction. I do not have to pretend
to myself, or to others,  that I know everything.  

2) I usually do not write to Theos-talk from my library, so I normally do not have that support in checking
things.  I bring from home some texts which need more care,  but almost all reactions to people's texts are
done away from home/library and on the spot, like this one.     

3) Of course I know C. Jinarajadasa made the first editions of "Letters From the Masters of The Wisdom". After
all,  I edited the two volumes (published in one sole volume)  in their Brazilian edition, late in the 1990s.
(I also translated and edited the "Mahatma Letters" and many other theosohhical  books,  besides having seven
books of mine published so far. For several  years I was a National Lecturer of  the Adyar TS in Brazil, etc.)  

4) I was wrong in saying that John Cooper did a bad job in editing "Letters From the Masters of the Wisdom"
(LMW).  It was John Clarke, a British citizen, and NOT John Cooper, who prepared the sixth edition (1988) of
LMW, first series (only first series), and he worked in Adyar for some time as he did that.  He changed the
sequence and number of letters. Personally, I guess the work could have been better.  So, I gladly admit my
mistake in that. Admitting mistakes is, I believe, pedagogically correct.  None of us  have to pretend we are
perfect, especially when writing quickly and not always being able to check data. Is that clear? Erase that
mmistake of mine.  John Clarke -- not John Cooper... Beg your pardon. (I saw that mistake after sending my
previous posting). 

5) I already told you that I had  nothing to criticize as to John Cooper's INTENTIONS. Now I can add: I have
very little to criticize in his work; just a couple of sentences in his letter published in the "Canadian
Theosophist", 1991. And even this is a partial, qualified  criticism, as your will see in item number 09, below. 

6) I have  told you I have a high opinion and deep gratitute, as a student, towards Boris de 
Zirkoff. The movement owes him a lot and I am well aware of that, in spite of the fact that he was not perfect,
as nobody is. I happen to know some admirable aspects of his life, his living in the Eeks' home,  etc., which
only makes me recognize him as a great human being and as a most significant theosophist.   

7) I have deep respect for your friendship with Boris and John Cooper. Time may show you I am not pretending in
this.  Such a  respect is entirely independent from your anger, frustration or otherwise. Personality clashes
fail to impress me too much. 

8)  As there are things I DON'T KNOW, perhaps you will admit that there are also other things YOU DON'T KNOW,
about HPB Letters.  Thus dialogue is sometimes interesting.   I am fully aware of the fact that my interest in
the background-of-things have been limited up to now.  So what? Backround has its importance, as future facts
also have.  I am open to correct my mistakes whenever I identify them. I thank you for your testimony on FACTS.
 John Patrick Deweney had already published an article hinting at what you wrote below -- in "Theosophical
History". You may  have read that. But in your text below, you were stronger and clearer than Deweney.  

9) My  following quotation is accurate. In order to describe the first of his editorial principles for his
future work on the HPB Letters, John Cooper  said:  

"All letters written by H.P.B. will be included. These will include letters whose authenticity is doubtful, as
will be indicated in the editorial apparatus."  Which is, Jerry, tantamount to say: "All letters written by H.
P. Blavatsky will be published, including those which have not been written by her."  This is the problem. 


10) This is a precedent. True, it comes ultimately  from Zirkoff.  Of course, it does not mean Cooper would not
publish the false letters with due identification, a question which is of critical importance (see the false
letters commented by HPB and correctly published by Zirkoff in volume VI of "HPB's Collected Writings").  

11) I consider your testimony about the process previous to the publication of "Letters of HPB - Volume I"  an
important piece of information.  I quote: 


*  I worked closely with John Cooper assisting in his research for the 
 Blavatsky letters.  Not a singe word of John Cooper's research (nor 
 mine) was included in vol. 1 of the "Letters of H.P. Blavatsky" edited 
 by John Algeo.

 * After John Cooper died, John Algeo declared his contract with Cooper 
 concerning the letters null and void.  Whatever decisions John Algeo and 
 his reformed "committee" make concerning the publication of those 
 letters, had nothing to do with any previous agreements with Cooper, nor 
 was Cooper's research included in that volume. 

 * I knew Boris--and for a time, was seeing him on a monthly bases.  I 
 studied for 18 years with his editorial assistant, who, before she died, 
 was training me to assist him in his work. Therefore I was in a position 
 to follow incident by incident the problems concerning the production of 
 the Collected writings.  Boris was a careful scholar, but near the end, 
 he too, did not have complete control of the publication of his works.

(End of quote.) 

This, Jerry, I intend to quote in any future articles I write -- if  I feel like, 
as coming from you "in a Theos-talk posting dated 18 Abril 2006". Unless
you convince me it is ethically beyond my rights and I cannnot do that.

If you want to correct, enlarge or improve this testimony of yours, please
do so by all means. 

I say it is my intention to incorporate these three paragraphs into
my files on HPB Letters because I tend to consider Theos-talk as public and
open, but you may show me it is not. I would like to hear from you.

I would have more things to tell you about this, but I guess it is enough for now.  

  
12) You say: 

"Do not blame those who have passed on for the mistakes of those who took 
up the work."

I will not do so. Be sure about that. 

I leave aside your emotional reaction and thank you for  the background
information  you gave me, and gave Theos-talk, on the process of "HPB Letters"
being finally published in 2003 with a shameful collection of "obviously spurious letters" (to
quote Radha Burnier in a letter to me).  In fact, a collection of libels and lies adopted 
by John Alge in spite of having been warned by (at least) Nicholas Weeks.    
  
Commentaries welcome.  

Best regards,   Carlos Cardoso Aveline, 19 April 2006. 


ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo



De: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Para: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
Cópia: 
Data: Tue, 18 Apr 2006 19:00:54 -0700
Assunto: Re: Theos-World Jerry, Cooper & the Slanders

> 
> Dear Carlos,
> 
> >I mentioned facts in my posting. Sorry.  
> >  
> >
> No, you did not mention facts in your posting.  You do not know the facts.
> 
> >If you got personally offended because you consider late John Cooper a friend of yours, sorry -- 
> >
> I am deeply offended because you are demeaning others who did important 
> work for the Theosophical Movement, while you have done nothing but 
> broadcast untrue information about them based upon information which you 
> do not understand and know nothing about. Yes, I am proud to have called 
> Cooper and de Zirkoff friends, but that is not why I have spoken up. If 
> the information you are spreading were true, I would have remained 
> silent.  But, it is my duty to stand up for those who are being falsely 
> demeaned.  Therefore, I must speak up. 
> 
> If you want facts, here are four which you can verify on your own, 
> providing you know who to talk to: 
> 
> 1) I worked closely with John Cooper assisting in his research for the 
> Blavatsky letters.  Not a singe word of John Cooper's research (nor 
> mine) was included in vol. 1 of the "Letters of H.P. Blavatsky" edited 
> by John Algeo.
> 2) After John Cooper died, John Algeo declared his contract with Cooper 
> concerning the letters null and void.  Whatever decisions John Algeo and 
> his reformed "committee" make concerning the publication of those 
> letters, had nothing to do with any previous agreements with Cooper, nor 
> was Cooper's research included in that volume. 
> 3) "The Letters from the Masters of Wisdom" was originally edited by C. 
> Jinarajadasa.  Not John Cooper.
> 4) I knew Boris--and for a time, was seeing him on a monthly bases.  I 
> studied for 18 years with his editorial assistant, who, before she died, 
> was training me to assist him in his work. Therefore I was in a position 
> to follow incident by incident the problems concerning the production of 
> the Collected writings.  Boris was a careful scholar, but near the end, 
> he too, did not have complete control of the publication of his works.
> 
> Do not blame those who have passed on for the mistakes of those who took 
> up the work.
> 
> Regards
> Jerry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> carlosaveline wrote:
> 
> >Dear Jerry,
> >
> >
> >I mentioned facts in my posting. Sorry.  
> >
> >I have no clear criticism with regard to Boris. I have a high opinion of him. 
> >In fact,  by some coincidence, two of the PATH volumes (1894-95) which belonged to Zirkoff  happen to be in
my personal library right now.  
> >
> >As Ifirst looked at his personal handwritten notes in those old pages,  I could see how careful he was in
checking things.   
> >
> >As to J. Cooper, it is true that he did, in my opinion,  a lousy editorial work with the "Letters From the
Masters of the Wisdom" while he was in Adyar.   
> >
> >But I am not saying Cooper would publish the libels against HPB without proper identification.  I am only
stating the obvious facts -- Caldwell and Algeo did do this unproper and disloyal publishing. 
> > 
> >If you got personally offended because you consider late John Cooper a friend of yours, sorry --  but I have
a sincere admiration for HPB.
> >
> >Regards,  Carlos. 
> >
> >
> >De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >Cópia:
> >
> >Data:Tue, 18 Apr 2006 14:49:17 -0700
> >
> >Assunto:Re: Theos-World John Cooper & the Slanders
> >
> >  
> >
> >>Dear Carlos,
> >>
> >>You write,
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> >>>In general terms, such a policy was announced in 1991 by John Cooper, who was first chosen to edit the HPB
Letters, after Boris de Zirkoff´s death. 
> >>>
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>Frankly Carlos, you don't know what you are talking about. You never met 
> >>John Cooper or Boris de Zirkoff. You never worked with them, and you do 
> >>not know the work they did for the Theosophical Movement and the 
> >>personal sacrifices they made to do that work. Further, you certainly 
> >>understand nothing about what happened after they died. John Cooper and 
> >>Boris de Zirkoff devoted their lives to assuring that Blavatsky's 
> >>writings be preserved unaltered and be made available for future 
> >>generations of students. It is time that you cease making your ignorant 
> >>slanders against them.
> >>
> >>Further, I am deeply saddened that this discussion board has been 
> >>allowed to become so degraded that it has become dominated by someone 
> >>like you who has nothing but disrespect for those very past workers whom 
> >>you owe a great deal. It is very odd that you give lip service to 
> >>preserving HPB's actual writings, yet devalue those very people who 
> >>devoted their lives to doing just that.
> >>
> >>As I suggest to you before. You would do well to listen and think very 
> >>carefully before posting messages. Who knows, if you begin doing this, 
> >>perhaps, some day, you will post something that is worth reading.
> >>
> >>Regards,
> >>Jerry
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>carlosaveline wrote:
> >>
> >>    
> >>
> >>>oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> >>>
> >>>An Uncomfortable Question
> >>>
> >>>PUBLISHING SLANDERS AGAINST H.P.B: 
> >>>
> >>>SHOULD WE ALL SHARE THE BLAME? 
> >>>
> >>>oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Dear Friends, 
> >>>
> >>>It would not be correct to ascribe solely to John Algeo the decision of absorbing many false and
slanderous documents as part of the HPB Letters. 
> >>>
> >>>True, Mr. Algeo is the main responsible for the first volume of H.P. Blavatsky´s personal correspondence
(TPH, Wheaton, 2003, 634 pp.), which includes dozens of shameful libels. But he is not the only responsible for
the adoption of those forgeries in the book. In general terms, such a policy was announced in 1991 by John
Cooper, who was first chosen to edit the HPB Letters, after Boris de Zirkoff´s death. 
> >>>
> >>>Coincidence or not, it was in 1991 that Daniel Calwell published his sad book "The Occult World of Madame
Blavatsky". Caldwell included in it a collection of the worst slanders against H. P. Blavatsky and the Masters.
He also had the nerve to present those slanders as "testimonies" and "acounts". 
> >>>
> >>>That same year, "The Canadian Theosophist" published a letter by Mr. John Cooper entitled "The Collected
Letters of H.P. Blavatsky" (1). 
> >>>
> >>>The text starts thus:
> >>>
> >>>"Through the kindness of those who are carrying on the work of Boris de Zirkoff, I have been engaged by
the Theosophical Publishing House to prepare a critical edition of "The Collected Letters of H. P. Blavatsky". 
> >>>
> >>>And then John Cooper proceeds to reveal "some of the editorial principles that will be followed in
preparing the letters for publication". It is here that the letter shows a remarkable absence of common sense,
for the very first "principle" says:
> >>>
> >>>"All letters written by H.P.B. will be included. These will include letters whose authenticity is
doubtful, as will be indicated in the editorial apparatus."
> >>>
> >>>Which is obviously tantamount to say:
> >>>
> >>>"All letters written by H. P. Blavatsky will be published, including those which have not been written by
her." 
> >>>
> >>>These two short sentences are a magnificent example of the "double-thinking" denounced by George Orwell in
his famous novel entitled "1984". Translated into English, the sentences meant that Mr. John Cooper intended to
publish both true and false letters, those witten by HPB and those written by the 19th century forgers who were
her enemies and slanderers. 
> >>>
> >>>As long as I know, John Cooper´s decision and announcement was not challenged or opposed. 
> >>>
> >>>Of course, John Algeo, who succeeded Cooper in the task, could have corrected that decision. In fact,
Nicholas Weeks, a member of Algeo´s "Editorial Committee", told Algeo that he should not accept as true the
letters forged by Mr. Vsevolod Soloviof. But the warning was in vain - as Ms. Dara Eklund, also a member of the
Editorial Committee, reported to me in a 2004 letter. 
> >>>
> >>>Besides Soloviof´s forgeries, John Algeo decided to include many other slanderous letters, with some very
modest aknowledgements that they had ... "poor legitimacy". 
> >>>
> >>>Algeo has been for some years the international vice-president of the Adyar Society, and from the
viewpoint of political power, he might have strong reasons to use those old slanders as instruments to attack
HPB at the moral ground. It would be a cunning way to help prevent Adyar Society members from rediscovering
true Theosophy, or from getting rid of the ritualistic fancies and authoritarian power-structure created by C.
W. Leadbeater. 
> >>>
> >>>John Algeo is, no doubt, the main responsible for such an attempt to absorb dozens of slanderous texts
into the heart of the theosophical literature - nay, into the very body of HPB´s writings. Yet one could say
that this was not his idea. After all, he only put it into practice. In a way, it all started with John Cooper
back in 1991, or even earlier with Boris de Zirkoff. 
> >>>
> >>>In fact, the attempt to adopt slanders as pa rt of our literature developed gradually. 
> >>>
> >>>First., there was no need for Zirkoff to translate many of those "letters" from the Russian, as he did, or
at least to plan to publish them, if he planned indeed. Why publishing and circulating forgeries? 
> >>>
> >>>During the 1980s, there was a new and strong evidence that those "materials" should be abandoned: it was
the self-criticism of the Society for Psychic Research, SPR. The same institution which used those forgeries to
"comdemn" Blavatsky as a fraud in 1885 withdrew all charges against HPB in 1986, after experts´ examination of
the documents showed that the "process" against HPB was biased and fraudulent, while HPB was innocent and a
victim of persecution. In spite of this, Daniel Caldwell decided to include the slanders in his 1991 book on
HPB. The libels were not clearly identified as such by Caldwell. Also in 1991, John Cooper announced his
intention to publish the forged texts as part of H.P.B. Letters. 
> >>>
> >>>The ethical defense of truth started in 2004, soon after the publication of the false HPB letters. In
2005, "The Aquarian Theosophist" announced it intendedf to publish a first volume with the authentic Letters of
HPB - "a volume containing no slanders against the founder of the modern esoteric movement". 
> >>>
> >>>Better late than never. But since 1991, when John Cooper announced the future publication of the slanders
and Daniel Caldwell actually published many of them, up to 2004, when r eactimon started, there was some sort
of paralysis in the movement´s ability to defend truth - and, to defend itself. 
> >>>
> >>>This is something for us to think about. 
> >>>
> >>>Perhaps we should humbly share part of the responsibility for such a collective lack of common sense and
absence of respect for the main founder of the modern esoteric movement. 
> >>>
> >>>One of the great souls who help humanity, Helena Petrovna´s work will only help us more, if we are able to
understand the truth about her wisdom, decency and generosity. 
> >>>
> >>>We will certainly have more to do about that in the years ahead. 
> >>>
> >>>Best regards, Carlos Cardoso Aveline. 
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>NOTE:
> >>>
> >>>(1) "The Canadian Theosophist", Toronto, March/April 1991, p. 21. 
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>      
> >>>
> >>
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> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
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