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Re: Daniel Versus Walter Carrithers?

Apr 18, 2006 12:25 PM
by danielhcaldwell


I must say I enjoy reading your "take" on things.

I sometimes am amazed at some of your conclusions.
I don't have a clue as to how you come to some of these
conclusions.

To almost everything you write in the posting below 
I would have to disagree with.  To clarify each item
would take far too much time for me with all my
projects.

But I will take just one of your "gems":

You say:

=========================================================
The one who does not talk about Gregory Tillett's important 
biography of C. W. Leadbeater is Daniel Caldwell. 
========================================================

I believe over the years on the various theosophical discussion
groups on the internet I have more than once mentioned and
recommended Gregory Tillett's wonderful book!

It is my opinion that every theosophist in the whole world
should read Tillett's biography.

I have been hoping for years and even encouraging Ernest Pelletier
to publish Tillett's lengthy dissertation on Leadbeater.

I remember several years ago calling Ernest and asking when he was 
going to publish it and he said that he (Edmonton TS) was missing 
one page of the dissertation.  I then emailed Tillett and told him 
that info and gave Tillett Ernest's email address.  I don't know if 
Ernest ever got the missing page but I do hope ETS will publish this 
dissertation.  I assume Gregory would not object to that.

Anyway notice I do mention this Leadbeater biography on my website 
and even feature it on my webpage devoted to Mr. Leadbeater:

See:

http://leadbeater.info/

especially

http://blavatskyarchives.com/leadbeaterbib.htm#Life

where I even provided a photo of the cover and a link
to the ordering info for the book.  [I see now that
that link doesn't work and I will fix it....]

But I ask you a related question Carlos,

would you be so happy with Dr. Tillett IF he wrote
a biography of HPB?  I remember one time after Gregory
Tillett had visited the United States that Grace Knoche said she
had wondered if he even believed in the Mahatmas.  I don't remember 
if she said she actually up front asked him that question!!  Maybe 
she did.

For all I know Gregory may believe the testimony of Coulomb and 
Hodgson.  I'm not saying that he does; but I don't actually know 
what his "take" on that testimony is.  Maybe he will read this and 
might decide to let us know.  Would be interesting....

As to the "true facts" you call them about Leadbeater and Wedgwood, 
readers can see something about that on my website in the Margaret 
Thomas book:

http://blavatskyarchives.com/ton2.pdf

You also write:

that the "SPR did abandon all its charges of fraud against H.P.B."

Is this true?  Can you cite the official SPR document in which this 
is stated?  I believe Bart on this very forum disputed this 
statement of yours when you wrote something similar several months 
ago.

No more time for now.

Daniel








 


 --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
<carlosaveline@...> wrote:
>
> Dear Friends,
> 
> Daniel is wrong this time. 
> 
> It is obvious that  any sound historical research should establish 
whether documents are authentic of fake.
> 
> Once it is established documents are fake, there is no reason to 
keep thinking of them night and day. One should leave them aside and 
go ahead.
> 
> Instead of doing this, Daniel is trying to un-do Carrithers work.
> 
> Carrithers had the stomach to go through all these analytical work 
with regard to the Coulombs slanders, and played a keu role in 
having the Society for Psychical Research changing its position.  In 
1986, in part due to Carrithers's efforts, the SPR did abandon all 
its charges of fraud against H.P.B.  That meant the Coulombs were 
abandoned as source os historical facts or testimonies. 
> 
> Daniel is trying to go the other way around.  He is attempting to 
absorb those lies into the theosophical literature. 
> 
> As to "keeping certain things (slanders) to experienced 
theosophists", anyone who reads me at Theos-talk can see I am open 
and frank, so this accusation does not stick.  I just recognize the 
basic fact that forgeries are no documents and cannot be accepted in 
theosophical books. 
> 
> The one who does not talk about Gregory Tillett's important 
biography of 
> C. W. Leadbeater is Daniel Caldwell.  
> 
> I see Daniel writing much more about slanders against HPB, and 
describing them as "testimonies", than about the true facts about C. 
W. Leadbeater, or James Wedgwood, etc.  
> 
> Regards,  Carlos.
> 
> 
> 
> De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> 
> Cópia:
> 
> Data:Tue, 18 Apr 2006 16:23:35 -0000
> 
> Assunto:Theos-World Aveline Versus Carrithers???? & the Tillett 
biography, etc.
> 
> > Carlos Aveline writes:
> > 
> > ==============================================
> > Here. . . is Daniel making propaganda of 
> > well-known slanders against H.P. Blavatsky, which 
> > he calls "firsthand testimonies".
> > In fact, they are second-hand and well-known lies.
> > ==============================================
> > 
> > Now compare Aveline's statement with that of
> > Walter Carrithers:
> > 
> > ==============================================
> > ...Emma Coulomb's pamphlet...takes precedence over 
> > all others in standing at the very heart of the controversy 
> > raised by the Coulombs, comprising as it does the FIRSTHAND 
> > unadulterated TESTIMONY of the chief accusers, together with 
> > documentary "proofs" adduced for their claims. 
> > ==============================================
> > 
> > Caps added.
> > 
> > In several emails Carlos tries to tell readers that
> > Emma Coulomb's account is not testimony, is not firsthand
> > testimony....
> > 
> > To pretend that this is not Coulomb's testimony is downright
> > silly. And to try to hide it and say that it should only be
> > available to researchers or "experienced" Theosophists is
> > in my opinion also equally silly. Oh, heavens, inquirers and
> > new students might be confused and not be able to handle it,
> > reminds me of some of the excuses I've heard before for
> > keeping Tillett's book on Leadbeater in a special place not
> > easily available in a Theosophical Library. I once was told by
> > a librarian of a certain Theosophical library that the Tillett
> > biography was kept in a reference area away from the general
> > books because inquirers and new students might be confused
> > by the contents, and OBTW, the book is very one sided and only
> > gives the slanders against CWL....
> > 
> > Sound familiar????
> > 
> > OBTW, below is a link to Emma Coulomb's testimony about
> > the Masters:
> > 
> > http://blavatskyarchives.com/coulombandhodgson.htm#Coulomb
> > 
> > Daniel
> > http://hpb.cc
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "danielhcaldwell" 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Notice that in what Carlos writes below
> > > he does NOT address the issue concerning
> > > the reprint of the entire Coulomb pamphlet
> > > by the Edmonton Theosophical Society.
> > > 
> > > An inquiring mind might also ask:
> > > 
> > > IF....IF Daniel is circulating "slanders," IS the 
> > > ETS ALSO guilty of ciculating
> > > "slanders" by publishing the ENTIRE Coulomb pamphlet
> > > and with NO WORD (not even in the FINAL pages) warning the 
modern 
> > > reader about the content of this "disgusting" pamphlet???
> > > 
> > > These are the kinds of questions one should be asking as
> > > one tries to understand Carlos' reasoning in this matter
> > > and the validity of his contentions concerning this subject.
> > > 
> > > I hope Carlos does NOT have a double standard in assessing and 
> > > judging such matters.
> > > 
> > > Remember:
> > > 
> > > "...what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander."
> > > 
> > > Personally I do NOT believe I was ciculating "slanders" and I 
do
> > > not believe that ETS was circulating "slanders". Both TPH by 
> > > publishing my book and the ETS by reprinting the Coulomb 
pamphlet 
> > > were both performing a needed service of providing interested 
> > > individuals with relevant historical documents. It is for each 
> > > individual reading these two books to determine for themselves 
the 
> > > truthfulness or falsity of the statements made.
> > > 
> > > And of course, it IS Emma Coulomb's TESTIMONY even though 
Carlos 
> > > apparently wants to play a word game here.
> > > 
> > > I close this posting with a quote about the Coulomb pamphlet 
from 
> > my 
> > > late friend Walter A. Carrithers, Jr. (who wrote under the 
assumed 
> > > name of Adlai E. Waterman):
> > > 
> > > ==================================================
> > > It is safe to calculate that for every ten thousand persons 
who 
> > have 
> > > heard and believe that Richard Hodgson "exposed" H.P. 
Blavatsky as 
> > a 
> > > fraud and imposter, not more than one has read his "expose;" 
and, 
> > > that for every thousand of his readers, hardly one has ever 
seen 
> > > Emma Coulomb's pamphlet. 
> > > 
> > > And yet, by logic and every rule of common sense, the latter 
> > > document takes precedence over all others in standing at the 
very 
> > > heart of the controversy raised by the Coulombs, comprising as 
it 
> > > does the firsthand unadulterated TESTIMONY of the chief 
accusers, 
> > > together with documentary "proofs" adduced for their claims. 
> > > 
> > > Yet, strange to say, practically no attention was paid to this 
> > > PRICELESS PAMPHLET - least of all by indignant Theosophists 
[like 
> > > Carlos?????] who put no stock in what Mme. Coulomb might have 
to 
> > > say! -, not until, that is, the appearance in 1937 of Mrs. 
> > Hastings' 
> > > booklet, Defence of Madame Blavatsky (Volume II) The "Coulomb 
> > > Pamphlet". Unfortunately, Mrs. Hastings did not live to 
complete 
> > > her promising study of the case. 
> > > =====================================================
> > > 
> > > I have added caps to Walter's own words in describing the 
Coulomb 
> > > pamphlet:
> > > 
> > > TESTIMONY and PRICELESS PAMPHLET !!!!
> > > 
> > > Daniel
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, "carlosaveline" 
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Dear Friends,
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I don't see contradiction in my two paragraphs quoted by 
Daniel. 
> > > > 
> > > > Indeed, in his disgusting and sad book, there is "no word 
from 
> > > the 'editor' Daniel Cadlwell admitting he is publishing 
documents 
> > > which have no trace of truth in them whatsoever".
> > > > 
> > > > He only says that those texts are not likely to be true, or 
> > > something similar, and thus he follows the well-known "maybe 
> > > policy". 
> > > > 
> > > > And even this he writes in a way which the average reader 
will 
> > > most likely NOT SEE. 
> > > > 
> > > > John Algeo did the same thing with the HPB Letters. Some 20 
per 
> > > cent of the texts published by Algeo in his "HPB Letters" 
volume 
> > I --
> > > - are fake. 
> > > > 
> > > > Caldwell was more modest -- but then, he was the pioneer in 
> > > publishing semi-unidentified lies and libels as if they were 
part 
> > > of the theosophical literature. 
> > > > 
> > > > In the introduction of his unfortunate boook, Caldwell 
> > > calls "testimonies" those open and shameful lies.
> > > > 
> > > > No honest editor or Historian can do such a thing. I still 
> > hope 
> > > in the future Caldwell will realize that this is not the 
proper 
> > > thing to do. 
> > > > 
> > > > Best regards, Carlos Cardoso Aveline 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > 
> > > > Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > > 
> > > > Cópia:
> > > > 
> > > > Data:Mon, 17 Apr 2006 19:33:45 -0000
> > > > 
> > > > Assunto:Theos-World "No proper identification": Do we have a 
> > good 
> > > example with the ETS reprint???
> > > > 
> > > > > Readers,
> > > > > 
> > > > > Please notice the progression here:
> > > > > 
> > > > > Originally Carlos wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > "In the disgusting volume The Esoteric World of Madame 
> > > Blavatsky —
> > > > > while believing the editor has selected truthful 
documents — 
> > the
> > > > > reader will bump into many of the lies written against 
HPB. 
> > > There he
> > > > > will see two texts by Emma Coulomb (pp. 35-36 and pp. 210-
215) 
> > > with
> > > > > no word from the 'editor' Daniel Cadlwell admitting he is 
> > > publishing
> > > > > documents which have no trace of truth in them whatsoever."
> > > > > 
> > > > > Notice Carlos' words:
> > > > > 
> > > > > "....no word from the 'editor' Daniel Cadlwell 
admitting ...."
> > > > > 
> > > > > Now after I have pointed out repeatedly that this is 
simply 
> > not 
> > > true 
> > > > > by quoting directly from my book several statements 
showing 
> > that 
> > > > > what Carlos wrote is not accurate, Carlos apparently backs 
off 
> > > from 
> > > > > his "NO WORD" stance and writes instead:
> > > > > 
> > > > > "Only in the final pages of his sad book he made 
commentaries 
> > > > > admitting those 'texts' were likely not authentic."
> > > > > 
> > > > > Well I guess we should be happy with his apparent 
concession 
> > and 
> > > > > retraction of his original statement!!!
> > > > > 
> > > > > But now we must puzzle over his definition of FINAL in the 
> > > > > phrase "the FINAL pages"....
> > > > > 
> > > > > because more than 100 pages BEFORE the final pages of the 
book 
> > I 
> > > > > wrote at the appropriate place about the Coulomb attack 
having 
> > > no 
> > > > > solid foundation....
> > > > > 
> > > > > Anyway moving on....
> > > > > 
> > > > > If Carlos is really "upset" because I gave "no proper 
> > > > > identification" about the Coulomb testimony, then is the 
> > > following 
> > > > > example another example of what Carlos would consider "no 
> > proper 
> > > > > identification."
> > > > > 
> > > > > In 1995, the Edmonton Theosophical Society (who is also 
the 
> > > > > publisher of Fohat where Carlos originally wrote his above 
> > > quoted 
> > > > > words about my book) REPRINTED the ENTIRE 112 pages of 
Madame 
> > > > > Coulomb's "disgusting" (to use Aveline's description) 
> > pamphlet. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > They published the ENTIRE pamphlet and sold it. A 
> > correspondent 
> > > of 
> > > > > mine originally wrote me informing me that he had bought 
this 
> > > > > reprint and I in turn bought copies although I had a copy 
of 
> > the 
> > > > > original. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Nowhere in the reprint by ETS is there ONE WORD warning 
> > today's 
> > > > > readers about the contents of this volume....not even in 
the 
> > > FINAL 
> > > > > pages of this reprint!!
> > > > > 
> > > > > Maybe Carlos should dash off a letter to FOHAT and ETS 
telling 
> > > them 
> > > > > that they should have done differently....that they should 
not 
> > > have 
> > > > > reprinted this DISGUSTING volume...and with "no proper 
> > > > > identification." !!!
> > > > > 
> > > > > Daniel
> > > > > http://hpb.cc
> > > > > 
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > E-mail classificado pelo Identificador de Spam Inteligente Terra.
> > Para alterar a categoria classificada, visite
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+_u=carlosaveline&_l=1,1145377426.428052.29435.arrino.terra.com.br,13
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> 
> 
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>










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