Theos-Talk Archives (April 2006 Message tt00357)

And then you have Paul Johnson with his brilliant "theories" against the th=
eosophical movement.=20

Strangely enough, last February  Paul Johnson denounced Daniel Caldwell at =
Theos-talk as a "troller" who invented several aliases or "internet-personi=
fications" in order to attack the ULT, to attack Paul himself, etc.  Once J=
ohnson made his points with regard to Daniel, our slanders-editor diesappea=
red from Theos-talk with no explanations.  Or at least spent some time writ=
ing here under other names.=20

I am still waiting for Daniel's answer to the texts by Paul Johnson on him.
This is rather important.  In case Daniel actually forged the existence of =
persons like "David Green", or "Terry Hobbes", etc. (which he did not deny =
so far), he might also be inclined to make propaganda of other forgers, lik=
e Sololoviof, etc.=20=20

After all, if that is true,  the Coulombs and Soloviof could be considered =
his 19th century coleagues.=20

As we know, Ethics is of the essence if anyone wants to study Theosophy. =
=20

I hope Daniel will answer to Paul Johnson's accusations of internet-fraud, =
and I also hope he will abandon his propaganda about the falsehoods created=
 by  the enemies of the theosophical movement, who seems to have no respect=
 for facts.=20=20=20=20

Best regards,  Carlos=20

=20


De:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

Para:theos-talk@yahoogroups.com

C=F3pia:

Data:Tue, 18 Apr 2006 18:54:24 -0000

Assunto:[Spam] Theos-World Re: Part 2: Compare and contrast the Coulomb Tes=
timony with other testimony:

> Bill,
>=20
> Yes I agree with everything (or almost everything you write!).
>=20
> I was not trying to do a definitive analysis but simply
> wanted to roughly indicate what this comparing and contrasting
> could be.
>=20
> I will just comment on just one thing you write since I don't have=20
> the time right now to do more:
>=20
> "There is surely more than one way to fake the appearance of a=20
> master."
>=20
> Yes surely I agree but hopefully you are not automatically saying=20
> that all appearances were therefore faked. Are we open to the=20
> possibility that the appearances were actually genuine? etc. etc.
>=20
> Thanks for your comments.
>=20
> Daniel
>=20
>=20
> --- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Bill Meredith=20
> wrote:
> >
> > Daniel, In the first testimony Coulomb does not say that the=20
> master=20
> > reported to have been seen by Olcott in the second testimony was=20
> either=20
> > Monseiur Coulomb in disguise or the sewn and stuffed head. You=20
> appear to=20
> > be comparing and contrasting apples and oranges, so to speak.=20
> Your=20
> > analysis has relevance in that both testimonies are about the=20
> > "appearance" of a master, however it lacks decisive significance=20
> in that=20
> > each testimony is about a different "appearance" at a different=20
> time, in=20
> > a different place, and witnessed by different people.=20
> >=20
> > As I understand them, both of the testimonies you present below=20
> could=20
> > be true. Both could be false. One could be true and the other=20
> false.=20
> > They do not address the same encounter of a master and therefore a=20
> > contrast and comparison of the details is limited to generalities=20
> at=20
> > best. None of the details of one testimony precludes the details=20
> of=20
> > the other testimony from being true at a different time, place,=20
> and=20
> > audience. Nor do any of the details from one testimony preclude=20
> the=20
> > details of the other testimony from being false at a different=20
> time,=20
> > place, and audience. There is surely more than one way to fake=20
> the=20
> > appearance of a master.
> >=20
> >=20
> > peace within,
> >=20
> >=20
> > bill
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > danielhcaldwell wrote:
> > > Let us continue with another simple comparing and contrasting.
> > >
> > > First, I give below Emma Coulomb's basic explanation for the
> > > appearances of the Masters:
> > >
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > Later] in one of [her good] moods [Madame Blavatsky] called me=20
> up=20
> > > and told me: "See if you can make a head of human size and=20
> place=20
> > > it on that divan," pointing to a sofa in her room, " and merely=20
> put=20
> > > a sheet round it; it would have a magic effect by moonlight."=20
> What=20
> > > can this mean? I wondered. But knowing how disagreeable she=20
> could=20
> > > make herself if she was stroked on the wrong side, I complied=20
> with=20
> > > her wish. She cut a paper pattern of the face I was to make,=20
> which=20
> > > I still have; on this I cut the precious lineaments of the=20
> beloved=20
> > > Master, but, to my shame, I must say that, after all my trouble=20
> of=20
> > > cutting, sewing, and stuffing, Madame said that it looked like=20
> an=20
> > > old Jew---I suppose she meant Shylock. Madame, with a graceful=20
> > > touch here and there of her painting brush, gave it a little=20
> better=20
> > > appearance. But this was only a head, without bust, and could=20
> not=20
> > > very well be used, so I made a jacket, which I doubled, and=20
> between=20
> > > the two cloths I placed stuffing, to form the shoulders and=20
> chest;=20
> > > the arms were only to the elbow, because, when the thing was=20
> tried=20
> > > on, we found the long arm would be in the way of him who had to=20
> > > carry it. This beauty finished, made Madame quite another=20
> person.=20
> > >
> > > Let us see for what purpose the doll was made. This was to give=20
> a=20
> > > convincing and material proof of the existence of the brothers=20
> [the=20
> > > Mahatmas], as their (said) invisible presence did not fully=20
> satisfy=20
> > > the truthseekers.=20
> > >
> > > Among the many apparitions to which this doll has been=20
> instrumental,=20
> > > I will choose one seen by Mr. Ramaswamier, in December, 1881.=20
> The=20
> > > Mahatma he saw in his astral body on the balcony at the head-
> > > quarters of the Theosophical Society in Bombay, on the memorable=20
> > > night of December, 1881, was no one else than Monsieur Coulomb,=20
> with=20
> > > the doll's head on his own.=20
> > >
> > > The doll plays the greatest part in these apparitions, and, as I=20
> > > have already explained, it is carried on somebody's head; but at=20
> > > times it is placed on the top of a long bamboo, and raised to=20
> show=20
> > > that it is an astral body; but when the doll has not been at=20
> hand,=20
> > > even a white cloth wrapped round the person who was to perform=20
> the=20
> > > Mahatma was at times used, and answered the purpose.=20
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > >
> > > Now from Hodgson's account, he writes also about this "dummie"=20
> head:
> > >
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D
> > > I was left without any doubt that the appearances [of the=20
> Mahatmas]=20
> > > might have been well produced by [Monsieur] Coulomb in=20
> disguise. I=20
> > > have seen [Monsieur] Coulomb disguised as a Mahatma, and can=20
> > > understand that the figure may have been very impressive. A=20
> dummy=20
> > > head (with shoulders), like that of a Hindu, with beard, &c. and=20
> > > fehta [turban], is worn on the top of the head of the person=20
> > > disguised. A long flowing muslin garment falls down in front,=20
> and=20
> > > by holding the folds very slightly apart, the wearer is enabled=20
> to=20
> > > see, and to speak also, if necessary. I do not think it in the=20
> > > least degree likely that any of the witnesses would have=20
> penetrated=20
> > > this disguise had the figure been even much nearer than it was,=20
> and=20
> > > the light much better.=20
> > >
> > > I cannot regard Colonel Olcott's testimony as of any scientific=20
> > > value. In particular, his testimony to the alleged "astral"=20
> > > appearance [of the Mahatma Morya] in New York proves, in my=20
> opinion,=20
> > > no more than that he saw someone in his room, who may have been=20
> an=20
> > > ordinary Hindu, or some other person, disguised, as a Mahatma=20
> for=20
> > > the purpose, and acting for Madame Blavatsky. And the same may=20
> be=20
> > > said of all his testimony to apparitions of Mahatmas.=20
> > >
> > > I need not here say much on the other alleged appearances of=20
> > > Mahatmas, in either their ordinary physical or their "astral"=20
> > > bodies. A confederate in disguise is generally an easy and=20
> > > sufficient explanation of them.=20
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > >
> > > Now contrast and compare his explanations with Colonel Olcott's
> > > testimony some of which can be found at:
> > >
> > > http://blavatskyarchives.com/olcottandmahatmas.htm
> > >
> > > And to be more specific, see this account by Olcott:
> > >
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > ....On the evening of 4th August [1880], a Mahatma [Master=20
> Morya]=20
> > > visited HPB, and I was called in to see him before he left. He=20
> > > dictated a long and important letter to an influential friend of=20
> > > ours at Paris, and gave me important hints about the management=20
> of=20
> > > current [Theosophical] Society affairs.=20
> > > I was sent away before his visit terminated, and as I left him=20
> > > sitting in HPB's room, I cannot say whether his departure was a=20
> > > phenomenal disappearance or not....
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > >
> > > Now are we to suppose that this Mahatma was Mon. Coulomb with
> > > dummmie on head?
> > >
> > > Remember Hodgson said:
> > >
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > > A long flowing muslin garment falls down in front, and by=20
> holding=20
> > > the folds very slightly apart, the wearer is enabled to see, and=20
> to=20
> > > speak also, if necessary. I do not think it in the least degree=20
> > > likely that any of the witnesses would have penetrated this=20
> disguise=20
> > > had the figure been even much nearer than it was, and the light=20
> much=20
> > > better.=20
> > > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> > >
> > > Remember the dummie had fake eyes, the mouth would not move when=20
> the
> > > "dummie" talked.....etc. etc.
> > >
> > > Would Olcott see the obvious especially when he was in the same
> > > room carrying on a conversation with the Mahatma?
> > >
> > > Many other observations and points could be made simply by
> > > contrasting and comparing Coulomb's and Hodgson's account with=20
> > > Olcott's firsthand testimony not to mention the testimony of=20
> other=20
> > > witnesses.
> > >
> > > etc. etc.
> > >
> > > Daniel
> > > http://hpb.cc
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >=20
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >=20
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
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