Theos-Talk Archives (April 2006 Message tt00201)

Vincent <vblaz2004@sbcglobal.net> wrote: Cass-

You wrote:


"I am not referring to phsychological desensitisation of another=20
human being, e.g. naming Viet Cong geeks.  I am talking about souls=20
who have spent countless lives in selfish pursuits (through their=20
personalities) over many lifetimes.  A densitized ego that no longer=20
has the ability to see the godhead within.  Spirit finally detaches=20
itself from that particular monad, to begin a new cycle of=20
evolutionary experiences.  Generally these are the truly despots of=20
civilization, the true serial killers who are bereft of conscience,=20
who take pleasure in tormenting and torturing others."

I guess that I don't share this view, because I don't see the basis=20
for the theory of reincarnation.  My impression is that doctrines=20
like Christian hellfire judgment or eastern-originated reincarnation=20
cycles are merely attempts on humanity's part to create it's own=20
answer for why there is so much injustice in the world.  Since=20
people don't understand (or can't morally accept) the existence of=20
unfairness in the world ('why do innocents suffer or why do=20
criminals get away with crimes?'), they therefore create=20
metaphysical concepts of judgment about the afterlife (eternal=20
hellfire judgment) or afterlives (reincarnational karma).  I believe=20
that these theories are merely concocted by moralists who can't=20
abide unfairness in the world, and who are trying to appease their=20
vexed conscience about the existence of injustice.  The resultant=20
difficulty is that these theories each present another whole set of=20
problems.

Cass: I absolutely agree with what you say above, and it also questions the=
  morality of a loving and just god=20

"They have dehumanized themselves, however, one can feel great=20
compassion for these individuals who have no link or understanding=20
of morality or goodness.  We cannot know the truly soulless and=20
cannot judge or determine that they are unfit for continued life.  I=20
do not advocate that we murder or exterminate them but for our own=20
safety they must be isolated from the general community and prevent=20
them from continuing to harm others."

I believe that all people need to be held directly accountable for=20
thier actions, especially if they commit violent crimes against=20
humanity.  But I also believe that society shares a responsibility=20
in dehumanizing criminals.  It is government's and/or society's=20
unspoken declaration that a person is 'soulless' or 'inhuman' before=20
any criminal or enemy of the state is murdered and killed, either=20
via capital punishment or in war.  The allocation of 'inhumanness'=20
is merely a societal self-desensitization tactic, which is used for=20
the purpose of appeasing one's own retaliatory sense of conscience,=20
when punishing violent criminals or killing foreign war soldiers.

Cass: I agree that people should be accountable for their actions, even in =
a one lifetime philosophy.  However, many perpetrators of violent crime are=
 never caught, (take the Mafia for instance) and justice is eluded.  In the=
 greater scheme of things karma always catches up and the violence they per=
petrated on others will be felt directly by themselves, in future lifetimes=
, although, as you say, in many cases, the reasons become inexplicable.

I don't believe that anyone is 'soulless' or 'non-human'.  Not even=20
the worst criminal.  Rather, a violent criminal may not be conscious=20
of the reality of their own humanness which originates on the=20
spiritual level for all people.  Hence, if society repeatedly tells=20
a person that they are 'soulless' or 'inhuman', then that person is=20
more likely to subsequently commit 'inhuman' acts, if the potential=20
criminal takes it to heart.

Cass:  From what I have read there are human beings who have no conscience =
whatsoever, science wants to attribute this to a non-functioning area of th=
eir brain, I however, believe that spirit has withdrawn.   Although every o=
pportunity is given sometimes rehabilitation is not possible.  An example o=
f this is that Hitler had one glimmer of goodness in his personality, that =
was, his love for his dogs.

For example, if I tell a smart child that they are 'dumb' throughout=20
their youth, they may begin to act 'dumb' in their adult life.  If I=20
tell a child that they are 'ugly', they may dress poorly or engage=20
in poor hygiene in their adult life.  If I tell a child that they=20
are 'evil' throughout their youth, then they are likely to perform=20
crimes as they age.

Cass:  This is more bad parenting and environmental pressures.  I agree it =
takes great courage and character to believe in oneself and that in many ca=
ses this can be turned around when one other person believes differently an=
d inspires that child to reach its potential.

Vince:Hence, they are merely decieved into believing existential illusions=
=20
about themselves.  Yet in believing these illusions, they turn them=20
into existential realities, despite the existence of illusory=20
foundations.  These are self-fulfilling prophecies of doom.=20=20
Psychological lies made existentially true.  We have the power to=20
create and destroy, and we can do this both to our own lives and the=20
lives of others.
Cass:  Many people who have been told they are dumb, ugly or bad have turne=
d their lives around.  How many times do we hear of people who where told, =
they wouldn't amount to anything, succeeded in proving their detractors wro=
ng?  But I agree it can result, in some cases, in an almost wasted lifetime=
.  Taking Karma into account those that perpetrated those illusions will on=
e day have those same illusions perpetrated upon themselves.

"If one doesn't believe any a series of lives then karma becomes a=20
very unfair judge, and cannot explain why in one lifetime some=20
suffer much and others suffer little."

I view this as circular reasoning.  The question is being asked 'why=20
do good people suffer and why do bad people not suffer?'.  This=20
question only originates from a morally vexed conscience.  And the=20
only answer which reincarnational karma gives is that people who=20
suffer are actually bad (such as abused children), and people who=20
don't suffer are actually good.  But I don't believe that it's so=20
simple as that.

Cass: For me it is not a matter of good and bad, but a matter of justice. I=
 have never stated that abused children are bad, but that they, probably th=
rough ignorance in a past life, did not understand that sex and love are no=
t the same thing, and may have crossed over into a sexual relationship beca=
use of a deep seated love for that person.  Who is to say that perhaps in a=
 past life, they were not a married couple?  Please understand I am not mak=
ing excuses but trying to provide a rational explanation for why this behav=
iour occurs.

"Yes, I am sure it does, it is a hard pip to swallow.  However,=20
blame doesn't enter into it."

I see references of cutting off hands and private parts that you=20
write later in this letter.  Sounds like blame to me.  Severe=20
judgments on severe crimes.

Cass:  I was thinking of Prevention.  Without the necessary equipment no fu=
rther harm can be done to others.  I would expect this to be done in a huma=
nitarian medical procedure, and perhaps even the threat of this action may =
deter some from committing the crime in the first place.

"We have evolved from savages who were not necessarily rationally=20
endowed.  We may have committed acts which were sexually driven as=20
we may have not been able to or evolved enough to control the sexual=20
drive or the passions."

I believe that humanity is still quite savage.  We may have evolved=20
technologically (with medicines and bombs), but humanity as a whole=20
really doesn't know enough about itself spiritually to be able to=20
master technology fully.  Sometimes we misuse synthetic medications=20
and bombs, because we are not evolved enough on how to use them, so=20
that they become very destructive forces against other people.

Cass: Part of our global karma is that we have not advanced morally at the =
same time as we have advanced technologically.  All knowledge can be used f=
or good or evil purposes, when we are all morally advanced these technologi=
es would only be used for the greater good of humanity.=20

"The lesson may be  a) to control our sexuality, b) power issues, c)=20
moral issues, what for me is important, is that the cycle ends, that=20
if once I perpetrated this acts against a human being, for moral and=20
psychological reasons I understand that to force one's will on=20
another is reprehensible."

You reference that forcing one's will is reprehensible, but yet you=20
later reference in this post that you would like to cut off people's=20
hands and private parts, which even the western laws do not permit.=20=20
Isn't decapitation a reprehensible force against someone's will?=20=20
Why do you want to decapitate people?  That is reprehensible, is it=20
not?
Cass:  Are you suggesting that a medical procedure is forcing one's will ag=
ainst someone?    I am not suggesting decapitation of their head but their =
genitals.  I am suggesting that they become Eunuchs.


"No, if we were fully aware of our actions in a past life, then we=20
would understand the wheel of Karma, unfortunately, for that very=20
same reasons we are protected from our past actions, i.e. facing=20
truths that we have committed immoral acts against others.  The=20
problem with a one-life time thinking is that we do not understand=20
why horrible things happen to us, "why me", "what have I done to=20
deserve this", etc."

I met a man who told me that he had memories from a past lifetime.=20=20
He stated that he was an ancient pharoah from Egypt in a past life,=20
becuase he had memories of such.  However, I concluded that he was=20
merely experiencing telepathic communication with the dead.  In=20
other words, he was not experiencing his own past life, but rather=20
somebody else's.  Spirits in the astral realm have more intimate=20
communication than we do in the earthly realm, on a telepathic=20
basis.  One of your Theosophist speakers even has the same=20
conclusion as I.

Cass:  Yes, I find it amusing, that many who experience past life memories =
are always powerful figures from the past.  There must have been so many ph=
aroahs that I am surprised there were enough workers to get the pyramids bu=
ilt.

In the earthly realm, we use words and pictures to communicate, but=20
in the astral realm, even memories can be projected from one mind=20
into another.  The consciousness of two spirits (or sometimes a=20
spirit and a medium) can be telepathically merged, if boundaries are=20
not otherwise exercised.  Of course, this can be beautific or=20
terrifying, depending on what memories are telepathically=20
communicated.

Cass: And isn't that why HPB tells us to be wary of any astral entity until=
 we can sort the sheep from the goats.  We are told that there are seven le=
vels in the astral plane all with their own inhabitants.  She warns against=
 mediums telepathically merging with any entity, for the reasons you mentio=
ned, be that on the physical or astral plane.

This form of telepathy serves as the foundation for the merger of=20
human consciousness on the metaphysical level.  I share your=20
memories and you share mine.  And then we understand each other.=20=20
And the spirits around us.  Of course, this can either free a mind=20
(if one is ready for it) or drive one mad (if one is not ready).

Cass:  I am not into the Borgian concept of merging human consciousness int=
o one great metaphysical  universal consciousness.  HPB tells us that we ma=
intain individual consciousness  while at the same time  being a part of  t=
he universal consciousness.  The one becomes the  all,  but remains self co=
nscious of itself as an individual ray, or zero point within the universal =
consciousness. Perhaps in Pralaya this merging may take place, but at the b=
eginning of a new manvantara, this zero point emerges as a self conscious r=
ay of the divine.  Others may have studied this point and may have other co=
nclusions, which I would welcome.

"No, absolutely not, all paedophiles should be incarcerated, because=20
it is a violent and immoral action.  I believe that most molesters=20
have been molested, thereby giving themselves an alibi for their=20
disgusting behaviour."

Agreed.  And that's good for punishment, but lacks rehabiltative=20
quality.

Cass: When psychologists truly understand the psychology of the soul they m=
aybe able to rehabilitate but until that time, I believe, that prevention i=
s better than cure.

"Actually I would cut off their hands and their privates to prevent=20
them from ever doing it again and try to make them understand"

Cutting off people's hands and private parts does not promote=20
spiritual enlightenment.  It merely reinforces the cycle of hate.

Cass:  I don't agree.
=20
Again, your sense of conscience is extremely vexed that you would=20
wish decapitation on people, cutting off their hands and private=20
parts.  Your judgments are even more severe than what the law=20
affords.  Your retributive attitude is such that it forces the wills=20
of others (which force you previously called reprehensible), and is=20
only the natural result of declaring someone to be 'soulless'.

Cass: I am merely trying to provide an alternate explanation, I believe I h=
ave been merciful in that not only would they cease to harm others but may =
in fact give them opportunity to cease harming themselves, psychologically.

"because it was done to them doesn't morally legitimize morally=20
doing it to others."

Cass: There is no moral justification for this act, if I murder someone, I =
am not morally justified in murdering someone else.  To be blunt, if the ex=
perience was so psychologically damaging, why would they wish to do this to=
 another human being?

You don't believe in doing unto others as has been done to them, yet=20
you're glad to do even worse against them.  That's simply=20
retributive.

Cass: You are missing my point.

"Yes I am of the opinion that we should try to rehabilitate the=20
fallen, the ignorant of society,"

Through decapitation?  Why not simply surgically extract their=20
organs without anesthesia for the advancement of medical science?=20=20
Or drop them into vats of boiling water?  Perhaps this too will=20
rehabilitate violent criminals?  They will become filled with love=20
and peace, so that they are less violent as a result.

Cass: This is going nowhere.

"we may not succeed, but extermination serves no purpose, if one=20
looks at it from the soul's point of view."

Uumm, so you believe that capital punishment is evil?  Why?  Is it=20
cruel or something?

"And we must catch ourselves everytime we are being judgemental if=20
for no other reason, than we have never walked in their shoes."

Good advice.  But does this involve blood?  Obviously, you're not=20
applying this principle to criminals.

"I once felt sorry for myself because I had no shoes, until I met a=20
man with no feet, I think the saying goes."

I once felt sorry for myself because I had no gloves, until I met a=20
man with no hands or private parts.  That's my version.

"No, not evil, ignorance, I was molested, I stopped the cycle."

I'm sorry that you were molested.  I was molested too.  And I'm glad=20
that you stopped the cycle by not performing the same actions as the=20
molestor.  That's a very strong thing to do.  Now the next step is=20
purifying the thoughts and emotions concerning veangeful tendencies=20
(regarding decapitating criminals so that they understand your=20
rage).  When a cycle is halted, it may yet remain a stagnant prison=20
of internalized self-rage, from which it is ideal to ascend above.=20=20
I struggle with that too.

Cass: Poppycock, I have no internalized self rage, then or now, it certainl=
y left me with trust issues in regard to my children and was very particula=
r about who they were allowed to stay with.  Most of my issues came from "t=
he sin aspect" forced upon me through catholocism. Perhaps I would have fel=
t differently if the act had been brutal, it was not, however,if he had bee=
n castrated it would have stopped him from doing it to others, it would not=
 have restricted his life in any other way other than the inability to have=
 sexual relations with anyone, and until a person is able to control evil s=
exual tendencies the children are not safe.   It is also my understanding t=
hat this act has been going on for centuries, it was kept in the closet, fa=
milies did not discuss it or acknowledge it, finally now we are speaking ab=
out it, which will, hopefully, enlighten others.


Cass


--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva  wrote:
>
> Vincent
>   I have just recently read that your mother has passed.  My=20
sincere condolences.  I hope that our dialogue will not add to your=20
sad time.
> Vincent  wrote:
>=20=20=20=20=20
> "The person who kidnaps or abuses children in many cases may be=20
> soulless, or may be a victim of abuse themselves. I do not condone=20
> their action, but try to see that there may be reasons for their=20
> behaviour which I know little about, and they do not have the=20
> strength of character to stop the cycle of abuse."
>=20
> Personally, I would never ever declare someone to be 'soulless'. I=20
> view such as a critical error. It is every war soldier or mass=20
> murderer (not placing you in that class at all) who must first=20
> declare their victims to be 'soulless', before such a war soldier=20
or=20
> mass murderer will have the hardness to kill their victims.=20
> Declaring someone to be 'soulless' simply seems like a self-
> desensitization tactic that someone engages in, before hardening=20
> their heart towards that person.
>=20=20=20=20
>   Cass: I am not referring to phsychological desensitisation of=20
another human being, e.g. naming Viet Cong geeks.  I am talking=20
about souls who have spent countless lives in selfish pursuits=20
(through their personalities) over many lifetimes.  A densitized ego=20
that no longer has the ability to see the godhead within.  Spirit=20
finally detaches itself from that particular monad, to begin a new=20
cycle of evolutionary experiences.  Generally these are the truly=20
despots of civilization, the true serial killers who are bereft of=20
conscience, who take pleasure in tormenting and torturing others.
>=20
> For example, if I can declare someone to be a 'soulless thing', as=20
> opposed to a human being of spiritual essence, I am then free to=20
> perform any atrocity that I wish upon them. For they are no longer=20
> people to me, if they are 'soulless'. I can kill them at war=20
> without remorse, or likewise in a backalley somewhere. Declaring=20
> someone to be 'soulless' is the first step to dehumanizing them,=20
> which eventually leads to harming them torturously in some way,=20
> either physically or psychologically.
>=20=20=20=20
>   Cass:  They have dehumanized themselves, however, one can feel=20
great compassion for these individuals who have no link or=20
understanding of morality or goodness.  We cannot know the truly=20
soulless and cannot judge or determine that they are unfit for=20
continued life.  I do not advocate that we murder or exterminate=20
them but for our own safety they must be isolated from the general=20
community and prevent them from continuing to harm others.
>=20=20=20=20
>=20=20=20=20
>   "If we are going to accept Karma, we are going to have to take=20
> responsibility for that same action in a previous or current life.=20
> As you sow, so shall you reap."
>=20
> I believe in Karma, but I don't really see any basis for the=20
theory=20
> of reincarnation. At least, not as it is taught in it's present=20
> forms. I differentiate between karma and reincarnation.
>=20=20=20=20
>   Cass: If one doesn't believe any a series of lives then karma=20
becomes a very unfair judge, and cannot explain why in one lifetime=20
some suffer much and others suffer little.
>=20
> "All victims of child abuse may have abused others in other=20
> lifetimes, perhaps in a society that condoned such actions as=20
> acceptable behaviour."
>=20
> This statement of yours absolutely shocks me. You are effectively=20
> saying that all victims of child abuse deserve to be abused. And=20
if=20
> a child is abused, it is their own fault for something that they=20
did=20
> in a previous life, and every abused child therefore deserves to=20
be=20
> abused. Is this what you're saying?
>=20=20=20=20
>   Cass: Yes, I am sure it does, it is a hard pip to swallow.=20=20
However, blame doesn't enter into it.  We have evolved from savages=20
who were not necessarily rationally endowed.  We may have committed=20
acts which were sexually driven as we may have not been able to or=20
evolved enough to control the sexual drive or the passions.  The=20
lesson may be  a) to control our sexuality, b) power issues, c)=20
moral issues, what for me is important, is that the cycle ends, that=20
if once I perpetrated this acts against a human being, for moral and=20
psychological reasons I understand that to force one's will on=20
another is reprehensible.=20=20
>=20=20=20=20
>   As I said, "The soul (lower self) must learn that as it harms=20
others so it will=20
> be harmed, not in a retributive way, but as a learning process to=20
a=20
> higher self-imposed morality."
>=20
> And you're placing this retributive principle on child abuse=20
victims?
>=20=20=20=20
>   Cass: No, if we were fully aware of our actions in a past life,=20
then we would understand the wheel of Karma, unfortunately, for that=20
very same reasons we are protected from our past actions, i.e.=20
facing truths that we have committed immoral acts against others.=20=20
The problem with a one-life time thinking is that we do not=20
understand why horrible things happen to us, "why me", "what have I=20
done to deserve this", etc.=20
>=20
> "Trying to bind by chains and imprisonment, rather than understand=20
> the causes, binds us to further ignorance, and the cycle=20
continues."
>=20
> Okay, so does this mean that you don't believe in putting=20
pedophiles=20
> in jail, as per the original example?
>=20=20=20=20
>   Cass: No, absolutely not, all paedophiles should be=20
incarcerated, because it is a violent and immoral action.  I believe=20
that most molesters have been molested, thereby giving themselves an=20
alibi for their disgusting behaviour.  Actually I would cut off=20
their hands and their privates to prevent them from ever doing it=20
again and try to make them understand because it was done to them=20
doesn't morally legitimize morally doing it to others.
>=20
> "As Captain Janeway of the Starship Enterprise says, we are not=20
> about extermination we are about rehabilitation."
>=20
> Do you believe that incarceration and enjailment rehabilitate=20
> people, or must rehabilitation originate from some other source?
>=20=20=20=20
>   Cass: Yes I am of the opinion that we should try to rehabilitate=20
the fallen, the ignorant of society, we may not succeed, but=20
extermination serves no purpose, if one looks at it from the soul's=20
point of view.
>=20
> "The Gotcha argument doesn't work for me as I said I struggle with=20
> it, which does not necessarily imply that I am carte blanche=20
> judgemental,"
>=20
> I don't believe that you're carte blanche judgmental. I'm just=20
> saying that we all make judgments on others, often more than we=20
> realize. Much of it we do subconsciously. We are all judgmental at=20
> times, but there are also rare instances when we break away from=20
> this.
>=20=20=20=20
>   Cass: And we must catch ourselves everytime we are being=20
judgemental if for no other reason, than we have never walked in=20
their shoes.  I once felt sorry for myself because I had no shoes,=20
until I met a man with no feet, I think the saying goes.
>=20
> "but that as a mother and at an emotional level I struggle with=20
the=20
> idea that others force there will on the innocents in the world."
>=20
> And who specifically are the 'innocents' of the world? Earlier you=20
> seem to state that if a child is abused, it is only because of=20
evil=20
> which they performed in their past lives. Are abused children now=20
> innocent all of a sudden? It frankly seems a contradiction.
>=20=20=20=20
>   Cass: No, not evil, ignorance, I was molested, I stopped the=20
cycle.=20
>=20=20=20=20
>   Cass
>=20
> Blessings
>=20
> Vince
>=20






=20
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