Theos-Talk Archives (April 2006 Message tt00185)

You wrote:

"I have just recently read that your mother has passed.  My sincere 
condolences.  I hope that our dialogue will not add to your sad 
time."

Well, she is soon to pass, and I'm told to be financially prepared 
with funeral arrangements before that occurs.  It could be a few 
weeks more.  Thanks for your condolences.
    
"I am not referring to phsychological desensitisation of another 
human being, e.g. naming Viet Cong geeks.  I am talking about souls 
who have spent countless lives in selfish pursuits (through their 
personalities) over many lifetimes.  A densitized ego that no longer 
has the ability to see the godhead within.  Spirit finally detaches 
itself from that particular monad, to begin a new cycle of 
evolutionary experiences.  Generally these are the truly despots of 
civilization, the true serial killers who are bereft of conscience, 
who take pleasure in tormenting and torturing others."

I guess that I don't share this view, because I don't see the basis 
for the theory of reincarnation.  My impression is that doctrines 
like Christian hellfire judgment or eastern-originated reincarnation 
cycles are merely attempts on humanity's part to create it's own 
answer for why there is so much injustice in the world.  Since 
people don't understand (or can't morally accept) the existence of 
unfairness in the world ('why do innocents suffer or why do 
criminals get away with crimes?'), they therefore create 
metaphysical concepts of judgment about the afterlife (eternal 
hellfire judgment) or afterlives (reincarnational karma).  I believe 
that these theories are merely concocted by moralists who can't 
abide unfairness in the world, and who are trying to appease their 
vexed conscience about the existence of injustice.  The resultant 
difficulty is that these theories each present another whole set of 
problems.

"They have dehumanized themselves, however, one can feel great 
compassion for these individuals who have no link or understanding 
of morality or goodness.  We cannot know the truly soulless and 
cannot judge or determine that they are unfit for continued life.  I 
do not advocate that we murder or exterminate them but for our own 
safety they must be isolated from the general community and prevent 
them from continuing to harm others."

I believe that all people need to be held directly accountable for 
thier actions, especially if they commit violent crimes against 
humanity.  But I also believe that society shares a responsibility 
in dehumanizing criminals.  It is government's and/or society's 
unspoken declaration that a person is 'soulless' or 'inhuman' before 
any criminal or enemy of the state is murdered and killed, either 
via capital punishment or in war.  The allocation of 'inhumanness' 
is merely a societal self-desensitization tactic, which is used for 
the purpose of appeasing one's own retaliatory sense of conscience, 
when punishing violent criminals or killing foreign war soldiers.

I don't believe that anyone is 'soulless' or 'non-human'.  Not even 
the worst criminal.  Rather, a violent criminal may not be conscious 
of the reality of their own humanness which originates on the 
spiritual level for all people.  Hence, if society repeatedly tells 
a person that they are 'soulless' or 'inhuman', then that person is 
more likely to subsequently commit 'inhuman' acts, if the potential 
criminal takes it to heart.

For example, if I tell a smart child that they are 'dumb' throughout 
their youth, they may begin to act 'dumb' in their adult life.  If I 
tell a child that they are 'ugly', they may dress poorly or engage 
in poor hygiene in their adult life.  If I tell a child that they 
are 'evil' throughout their youth, then they are likely to perform 
crimes as they age.

Hence, they are merely decieved into believing existential illusions 
about themselves.  Yet in believing these illusions, they turn them 
into existential realities, despite the existence of illusory 
foundations.  These are self-fulfilling prophecies of doom.  
Psychological lies made existentially true.  We have the power to 
create and destroy, and we can do this both to our own lives and the 
lives of others.

"If one doesn't believe any a series of lives then karma becomes a 
very unfair judge, and cannot explain why in one lifetime some 
suffer much and others suffer little."

I view this as circular reasoning.  The question is being asked 'why 
do good people suffer and why do bad people not suffer?'.  This 
question only originates from a morally vexed conscience.  And the 
only answer which reincarnational karma gives is that people who 
suffer are actually bad (such as abused children), and people who 
don't suffer are actually good.  But I don't believe that it's so 
simple as that.

"Yes, I am sure it does, it is a hard pip to swallow.  However, 
blame doesn't enter into it."

I see references of cutting off hands and private parts that you 
write later in this letter.  Sounds like blame to me.  Severe 
judgments on severe crimes.

"We have evolved from savages who were not necessarily rationally 
endowed.  We may have committed acts which were sexually driven as 
we may have not been able to or evolved enough to control the sexual 
drive or the passions."

I believe that humanity is still quite savage.  We may have evolved 
technologically (with medicines and bombs), but humanity as a whole 
really doesn't know enough about itself spiritually to be able to 
master technology fully.  Sometimes we misuse synthetic medications 
and bombs, because we are not evolved enough on how to use them, so 
that they become very destructive forces against other people.

"The lesson may be  a) to control our sexuality, b) power issues, c) 
moral issues, what for me is important, is that the cycle ends, that 
if once I perpetrated this acts against a human being, for moral and 
psychological reasons I understand that to force one's will on 
another is reprehensible."

You reference that forcing one's will is reprehensible, but yet you 
later reference in this post that you would like to cut off people's 
hands and private parts, which even the western laws do not permit.  
Isn't decapitation a reprehensible force against someone's will?  
Why do you want to decapitate people?  That is reprehensible, is it 
not?

"No, if we were fully aware of our actions in a past life, then we 
would understand the wheel of Karma, unfortunately, for that very 
same reasons we are protected from our past actions, i.e. facing 
truths that we have committed immoral acts against others.  The 
problem with a one-life time thinking is that we do not understand 
why horrible things happen to us, "why me", "what have I done to 
deserve this", etc."

I met a man who told me that he had memories from a past lifetime.  
He stated that he was an ancient pharoah from Egypt in a past life, 
becuase he had memories of such.  However, I concluded that he was 
merely experiencing telepathic communication with the dead.  In 
other words, he was not experiencing his own past life, but rather 
somebody else's.  Spirits in the astral realm have more intimate 
communication than we do in the earthly realm, on a telepathic 
basis.  One of your Theosophist speakers even has the same 
conclusion as I.

In the earthly realm, we use words and pictures to communicate, but 
in the astral realm, even memories can be projected from one mind 
into another.  The consciousness of two spirits (or sometimes a 
spirit and a medium) can be telepathically merged, if boundaries are 
not otherwise exercised.  Of course, this can be beautific or 
terrifying, depending on what memories are telepathically 
communicated.

This form of telepathy serves as the foundation for the merger of 
human consciousness on the metaphysical level.  I share your 
memories and you share mine.  And then we understand each other.  
And the spirits around us.  Of course, this can either free a mind 
(if one is ready for it) or drive one mad (if one is not ready).

"No, absolutely not, all paedophiles should be incarcerated, because 
it is a violent and immoral action.  I believe that most molesters 
have been molested, thereby giving themselves an alibi for their 
disgusting behaviour."

Agreed.  And that's good for punishment, but lacks rehabiltative 
quality.

"Actually I would cut off their hands and their privates to prevent 
them from ever doing it again and try to make them understand"

Cutting off people's hands and private parts does not promote 
spiritual enlightenment.  It merely reinforces the cycle of hate.  
Again, your sense of conscience is extremely vexed that you would 
wish decapitation on people, cutting off their hands and private 
parts.  Your judgments are even more severe than what the law 
affords.  Your retributive attitude is such that it forces the wills 
of others (which force you previously called reprehensible), and is 
only the natural result of declaring someone to be 'soulless'.

"because it was done to them doesn't morally legitimize morally 
doing it to others."

You don't believe in doing unto others as has been done to them, yet 
you're glad to do even worse against them.  That's simply 
retributive.

"Yes I am of the opinion that we should try to rehabilitate the 
fallen, the ignorant of society,"

Through decapitation?  Why not simply surgically extract their 
organs without anesthesia for the advancement of medical science?  
Or drop them into vats of boiling water?  Perhaps this too will 
rehabilitate violent criminals?  They will become filled with love 
and peace, so that they are less violent as a result.

"we may not succeed, but extermination serves no purpose, if one 
looks at it from the soul's point of view."

Uumm, so you believe that capital punishment is evil?  Why?  Is it 
cruel or something?

"And we must catch ourselves everytime we are being judgemental if 
for no other reason, than we have never walked in their shoes."

Good advice.  But does this involve blood?  Obviously, you're not 
applying this principle to criminals.

"I once felt sorry for myself because I had no shoes, until I met a 
man with no feet, I think the saying goes."

I once felt sorry for myself because I had no gloves, until I met a 
man with no hands or private parts.  That's my version.

"No, not evil, ignorance, I was molested, I stopped the cycle."

I'm sorry that you were molested.  I was molested too.  And I'm glad 
that you stopped the cycle by not performing the same actions as the 
molestor.  That's a very strong thing to do.  Now the next step is 
purifying the thoughts and emotions concerning veangeful tendencies 
(regarding decapitating criminals so that they understand your 
rage).  When a cycle is halted, it may yet remain a stagnant prison 
of internalized self-rage, from which it is ideal to ascend above.  
I struggle with that too.

Blessings

Vince

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Cass Silva <silva_cass@...> wrote:
>
> Vincent
>   I have just recently read that your mother has passed.  My 
sincere condolences.  I hope that our dialogue will not add to your 
sad time.
> Vincent <vblaz2004@...> wrote:
>     
> "The person who kidnaps or abuses children in many cases may be 
> soulless, or may be a victim of abuse themselves. I do not condone 
> their action, but try to see that there may be reasons for their 
> behaviour which I know little about, and they do not have the 
> strength of character to stop the cycle of abuse."
> 
> Personally, I would never ever declare someone to be 'soulless'. I 
> view such as a critical error. It is every war soldier or mass 
> murderer (not placing you in that class at all) who must first 
> declare their victims to be 'soulless', before such a war soldier 
or 
> mass murderer will have the hardness to kill their victims. 
> Declaring someone to be 'soulless' simply seems like a self-
> desensitization tactic that someone engages in, before hardening 
> their heart towards that person.
>    
>   Cass: I am not referring to phsychological desensitisation of 
another human being, e.g. naming Viet Cong geeks.  I am talking 
about souls who have spent countless lives in selfish pursuits 
(through their personalities) over many lifetimes.  A densitized ego 
that no longer has the ability to see the godhead within.  Spirit 
finally detaches itself from that particular monad, to begin a new 
cycle of evolutionary experiences.  Generally these are the truly 
despots of civilization, the true serial killers who are bereft of 
conscience, who take pleasure in tormenting and torturing others.
> 
> For example, if I can declare someone to be a 'soulless thing', as 
> opposed to a human being of spiritual essence, I am then free to 
> perform any atrocity that I wish upon them. For they are no longer 
> people to me, if they are 'soulless'. I can kill them at war 
> without remorse, or likewise in a backalley somewhere. Declaring 
> someone to be 'soulless' is the first step to dehumanizing them, 
> which eventually leads to harming them torturously in some way, 
> either physically or psychologically.
>    
>   Cass:  They have dehumanized themselves, however, one can feel 
great compassion for these individuals who have no link or 
understanding of morality or goodness.  We cannot know the truly 
soulless and cannot judge or determine that they are unfit for 
continued life.  I do not advocate that we murder or exterminate 
them but for our own safety they must be isolated from the general 
community and prevent them from continuing to harm others.
>    
>    
>   "If we are going to accept Karma, we are going to have to take 
> responsibility for that same action in a previous or current life. 
> As you sow, so shall you reap."
> 
> I believe in Karma, but I don't really see any basis for the 
theory 
> of reincarnation. At least, not as it is taught in it's present 
> forms. I differentiate between karma and reincarnation.
>    
>   Cass: If one doesn't believe any a series of lives then karma 
becomes a very unfair judge, and cannot explain why in one lifetime 
some suffer much and others suffer little.
> 
> "All victims of child abuse may have abused others in other 
> lifetimes, perhaps in a society that condoned such actions as 
> acceptable behaviour."
> 
> This statement of yours absolutely shocks me. You are effectively 
> saying that all victims of child abuse deserve to be abused. And 
if 
> a child is abused, it is their own fault for something that they 
did 
> in a previous life, and every abused child therefore deserves to 
be 
> abused. Is this what you're saying?
>    
>   Cass: Yes, I am sure it does, it is a hard pip to swallow.  
However, blame doesn't enter into it.  We have evolved from savages 
who were not necessarily rationally endowed.  We may have committed 
acts which were sexually driven as we may have not been able to or 
evolved enough to control the sexual drive or the passions.  The 
lesson may be  a) to control our sexuality, b) power issues, c) 
moral issues, what for me is important, is that the cycle ends, that 
if once I perpetrated this acts against a human being, for moral and 
psychological reasons I understand that to force one's will on 
another is reprehensible.  
>    
>   As I said, "The soul (lower self) must learn that as it harms 
others so it will 
> be harmed, not in a retributive way, but as a learning process to 
a 
> higher self-imposed morality."
> 
> And you're placing this retributive principle on child abuse 
victims?
>    
>   Cass: No, if we were fully aware of our actions in a past life, 
then we would understand the wheel of Karma, unfortunately, for that 
very same reasons we are protected from our past actions, i.e. 
facing truths that we have committed immoral acts against others.  
The problem with a one-life time thinking is that we do not 
understand why horrible things happen to us, "why me", "what have I 
done to deserve this", etc. 
> 
> "Trying to bind by chains and imprisonment, rather than understand 
> the causes, binds us to further ignorance, and the cycle 
continues."
> 
> Okay, so does this mean that you don't believe in putting 
pedophiles 
> in jail, as per the original example?
>    
>   Cass: No, absolutely not, all paedophiles should be 
incarcerated, because it is a violent and immoral action.  I believe 
that most molesters have been molested, thereby giving themselves an 
alibi for their disgusting behaviour.  Actually I would cut off 
their hands and their privates to prevent them from ever doing it 
again and try to make them understand because it was done to them 
doesn't morally legitimize morally doing it to others.
> 
> "As Captain Janeway of the Starship Enterprise says, we are not 
> about extermination we are about rehabilitation."
> 
> Do you believe that incarceration and enjailment rehabilitate 
> people, or must rehabilitation originate from some other source?
>    
>   Cass: Yes I am of the opinion that we should try to rehabilitate 
the fallen, the ignorant of society, we may not succeed, but 
extermination serves no purpose, if one looks at it from the soul's 
point of view.
> 
> "The Gotcha argument doesn't work for me as I said I struggle with 
> it, which does not necessarily imply that I am carte blanche 
> judgemental,"
> 
> I don't believe that you're carte blanche judgmental. I'm just 
> saying that we all make judgments on others, often more than we 
> realize. Much of it we do subconsciously. We are all judgmental at 
> times, but there are also rare instances when we break away from 
> this.
>    
>   Cass: And we must catch ourselves everytime we are being 
judgemental if for no other reason, than we have never walked in 
their shoes.  I once felt sorry for myself because I had no shoes, 
until I met a man with no feet, I think the saying goes.
> 
> "but that as a mother and at an emotional level I struggle with 
the 
> idea that others force there will on the innocents in the world."
> 
> And who specifically are the 'innocents' of the world? Earlier you 
> seem to state that if a child is abused, it is only because of 
evil 
> which they performed in their past lives. Are abused children now 
> innocent all of a sudden? It frankly seems a contradiction.
>    
>   Cass: No, not evil, ignorance, I was molested, I stopped the 
cycle. 
>    
>   Cass
> 
> Blessings
> 
> Vince
>