Theos-Talk Archives (April 2006 Message tt00140)

Cass,

Yes.

It is not something that I say --  it is HPB, etc. The word
"initiation" has several possible meanings.
Socrates was not initiated in the "organized" Mysteries of their
time.
HPB seldom mentioned the expression "initiated" etc. in the
other, occult sense, which does not depend so much on human
organizations.

In  HPB and in the  Mahatma Letters, the word "initiation" in this  sense of
srotappatti, anagamin, etc. (the easter inner initiations) is used  -- but
it is always used "en passant" and rarely.

Who distorted and "popularized" the notion of the so-called 5 great (occult) 
initiations was Leadbeater, and this "popularization"  led to all the 
fancies we know of.  Later on, Alice Bailey also "popularized" such 
pseudo-informations.


Regards, Carlos.








Regards



> From: Cass Silva <silva_cass@yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: Theos-World To Cass, Clarifying on Outer Initiations
> Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2006 17:55:56 -0700 (PDT)
>
> Thanks Carlos, now I get what you are saying.  Although I believe that 
> being initiated has nothing to do with belonging to any esoteric mystery 
> school. Perhaps what you are referring to would have been akin to being an 
> esoteric member of the theosophical society in today's world.
> Cass
>
> carlosaveline cardoso aveline <carlosaveline@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Cass,
>
> OK, thanks.
>
> I will try to clarify.
>
> Socrates was not initiated in the human organization of Mysteries in his
> time and city
> (ritualistic etc.), that is --  the equivalent of Esoteric Schools in his
> time.  Socrates was
> not affiliated. The term "initiated" means "accepted", affiliated", as in
> Masonry, etc.
>
> Julian, who according  to HPB  WAS initiated in the organized Mysteries of
> his own time ( Mithraic )  writes that this outer, conventional initiation
> is NOT of  importance to individuals like Socrates of Athens or Diogenes,
> the Cynic.
>
> I hope that helps.
>
>
> Regards,  Carlos.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: Cass Silva
> >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Did Socrates Need Outer Initiation?
> >Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 17:52:35 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >
> >Sorry Carlos, I am not sure what you are saying here
> >Cass
> >
> >Beyond initiation in the conventional, formal  Mysteries of his own
> >time and
> >place.
> >
> >
> >carlosaveline cardoso aveline  wrote:
> >
> >Cass,
> >
> >Thanks.
> >
> >You say:
> >
> >"It seems inconsistent to me that some disciples are 'beyond 
> initiation'."
> >
> >Please pay attention, my dear Cass.
> >
> >Beyond initiation in the conventional, formal  Mysteries of his own time
> >and
> >place.
> >
> >It is the same as to say that some present-day Lay Chelas may not be
> >members
> >of any Esoteric School or even may be not members of the Theosophical
> >Movement.
> >
> >Such was the well-known case of D. M. Bennet in the 19th century. He did
> >not
> >even believe in the Master's existence, yet he was a lay chela. TaKe a 
> look
> >at the Mahatma Letters.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: Cass Silva
> > >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > >Subject: Re: Theos-World Did Socrates  Need  Outer Initiation?
> > >Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 18:41:27 -0700 (PDT)
> > >
> > >Hello Carlos
> > >It seems inconsistent to me that some disciples are "beyond 
> initiation".
> > >HPB tells us that she was a Chela and as such was the voice of the
> >masters.
> > >  My reading of Julian is that he was initiated.
> > >
> > >My understanding of initiation is that the neophyte must first master
> > >himself, become a centre of  honesty, truthfullness and compassionate
> > >before he is given the keys to the mysteries of life.  That is 
> knowledge
> >of
> > >our true existence, knowledge of all the planes in nature, knowledge of
> >our
> > >universe,etc.  If this knowledge was given to one who was not fully in
> > >control of self (i.e. Socrates daimon) he could not be trusted not to
> > >misuse his powers, even to the point of providing information beyond 
> his
> > >own comprehension as was the case again of Socrates.
> > >
> > >"All initiation is really a test or trial, but the preparation for that
> > >test or trial is daily life....What we call Initiation is simply the
> > >showing by the neophyte in the tests and there laid upon him, whether 
> his
> > >daily life's training has been sufficiently strong to make him fit to
> >hitch
> > >his chariot to the stars."
> > >
> > >"The tests are these: Can you face the denizens of other planes and
> >prevail
> > >with them in peace?  Do you know what that means?  Are you absolutely
> >sure
> > >of yourself?  The man who cannot even face himself and conquer himself
> >when
> > >required on this familiar plane where he lives, how can be expect to 
> face
> > >with safety the habitants of other planes, not only the elementals - 
> they
> > >are not by any means the worst - but the intelligent creatures, beings,
> > >living on other planes?
> > >
> > >
> > >"Now then, anyone who has mastered himself, perhaps not completely, but
> >who
> > >knows that if he sets his will to it he can control anything in his own
> > >character, and knows it by proving it, is ready to go through 
> initiation.
> > >When this knowledge comes to him then he is given the chance.  So many
> > >people seem to think that Initiations are privileges granted to people
> >who
> > >pretend to live the holy life and that kind of thing, but I will tell 
> you
> > >something more that I myself know because I have seen it in my fellow
> >human
> > >beings: there is more chance for the man or the woman who has striven
> > >honestly and has fallen and risen again, in other words for one who has
> > >eaten the bread of bitterness, who has become softened and strengthened
> >by
> > >it, that there is for one who has never passed through the fire.  So
> > >compassionate and pitiful is universal nature, that it is precisely 
> those
> > >who stumble on the path who are often in the end the richer.  Holiness
> > >comes from the struggles with self
> > >  fought and lost, and fought and lost, and fought and Won.  And then
> > >compassion enters the heart, and pity, and understanding.  We become
> >gentle
> > >with others. Wind of the Spirit, G de Purucker.
> > >
> > >Cheers
> > >Cass
> > >
> > >carlosaveline cardoso aveline  wrote:
> > >Cass,
> > >
> > >
> > >Thanks.
> > >
> > >Yes, HPB said Socrates was "not initiated" --  but not initiated in 
> what?
> > >
> > >It is clear: he was not initiated in the conventional, Western,  
> physical
> > >plane Mysteries of his own time and society.   Physical level,
> >conventional
> > >initiation means affiliation and often dependence.
> > >
> > >Julian, who WAS initiated in the Mysteries as HPB informs,  writes (in
> >his
> > >Oration VII)  that Socrates of Athens,  like Diogenes, the Cynic, DID 
> NOT
> > >NEED  to be initiated  because they both had "direct sources" so to 
> say.
> > >
> > >In saying this, Julian was only anticipating his own fate, in a way, as
> >he
> > >also died for "revealing too much", as HPB writes ( BCW, volume XIV).
> >She
> > >compares Julian and Socrates with a favourable view of both of them.
> > >
> > >Socrates was ABOVE the Mysteries of his time, then. His link was inner.
> > >
> > >I should  bring more evidences, and references, about this issue, here.
> > >
> > >Many theosophists use to get too  enthusiastic with Plato and there is,
> >to
> > >my view, a misunderstanding of HPB's real position with regard to
> >Socrates,
> > >as if she thought he was "beneath initiation".  She did not. We must 
> not
> > >idealize the Greek Mysteries too much. As a corporation, it had great
> > >limitations, of which Socrates was free.
> > >
> > >Philosophy, with its free thought, goes far beyond myths and mystery
> > >corporations/organizations.
> > >Yet as it explains myths and reveal them, it gets into dangerous waters
> >for
> > >ortodoxy.
> > >
> > >
> > >So does Theosophy. HPB had much in common with Socrates, with Julian --
> >and
> > >even something in common with Diogenes, the Cynic, too.  She, too, was
> > >accused of "talking too much" -- ask Subba Row about that...
> > >
> > >
> > >Regards,  Carlos.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: Cass Silva
> > > >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > > >Subject: Re: Theos-World THE ONLY REAL TEMPLE
> > > >Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 19:31:05 -0800 (PST)
> > > >
> > > >Hello Carlos
> > > >I read this a little differently in that HPB is suggesting that
> >Socrates
> > > >was not initiated, but new the path to initiation came by knowing
> > >thyself.
> > > >Self, whether divine or human.  So perhaps she is suggesting that the
> > >first
> > > >stage is to know our human self, in truth and without judgement 
> before
> > >the
> > > >heavenly man will manifest?
> > > >Cass
> > > >
> > > >if otherwise, then, like Socrates repeating to himself, as well as to
> >his
> > > >fellow-men, the noble injuction, ‘O man, know thyself’’, he
> > >succeeded
> > > >in
> > > >recognizing his God within himself." (1)
> > > >
> > > >Cass
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >carlosaveline cardoso aveline  wrote:
> > > >
> > > >oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> > > >
> > > >THE ONLY REAL TEMPLE  -- WHERE IS IT?
> > > >
> > > >ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Dear Friends,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Outer, physical  Temples can be seen, at best, as metaphors for,
> > > >or projections of, the temple or divine presence in our own
> > >consciousness.
> > > >
> > > >Referring to the old Socrates of Athens, , H. P. Blavatsky wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >�From the  days of the primitive man described by the first Vedic
> >poet,
> > > >down
> > > >to our modern poet, there has not been a philosopher worthy of that
> >name,
> > > >who did not carry in the silent sanctuary of his heart the grand and
> > > >mysterious truth. If initiated, he learnt it as a sacred science; if
> > > >otherwise, then, like Socrates repeating to himself, as well as to 
> his
> > > >fellow-men, the noble injuction, �O man, know thyself��, he
> > >succeeded
> > > >in
> > > >recognizing his God within himself." (1)
> > > >
> > > >The esoteric movement is only a stimulating and testing common ground
> >for
> > > >that inner recognition.
> > > >
> > > >Best regards,  Carlos Cardoso Aveline
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >NOTE:
> > > >(1) �Isis Unveiled�, by H. P. Blavatsky, Theosophical University
> > >Press,
> > > >Pasadena, California, USA, 1988, two volumes, see volume II, p. 318.
> > > >Reproduced by H.P. Blavatsky in �Collected Writing�, TPH Wheaton,
> > > >volume
> > > >XIV, 1985, 733 pp., see p. 48.
> > > >
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