Theos-Talk Archives (April 2006 Message tt00118)

Cass,

OK, thanks.

I will try to clarify.

Socrates was not initiated in the human organization of Mysteries in his=20
time and city
(ritualistic etc.), that is --  the equivalent of Esoteric Schools in his=20
time.  Socrates was
not affiliated. The term "initiated" means "accepted", affiliated", as in=20
Masonry, etc.

Julian, who according  to HPB  WAS initiated in the organized Mysteries of=
=20
his own time ( Mithraic )  writes that this outer, conventional initiation=
=20
is NOT of  importance to individuals like Socrates of Athens or Diogenes,=20
the Cynic.

I hope that helps.


Regards,  Carlos.






>From: Cass Silva=20
>Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: Theos-World Re: Did Socrates Need Outer Initiation?
>Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 17:52:35 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>Sorry Carlos, I am not sure what you are saying here
>Cass
>
>Beyond initiation in the conventional, formal  Mysteries of his own
>time and
>place.
>
>
>carlosaveline cardoso aveline  wrote:
>
>Cass,
>
>Thanks.
>
>You say:
>
>"It seems inconsistent to me that some disciples are 'beyond initiation'."
>
>Please pay attention, my dear Cass.
>
>Beyond initiation in the conventional, formal  Mysteries of his own time=20
>and
>place.
>
>It is the same as to say that some present-day Lay Chelas may not be=20
>members
>of any Esoteric School or even may be not members of the Theosophical
>Movement.
>
>Such was the well-known case of D. M. Bennet in the 19th century. He did=20
>not
>even believe in the Master's existence, yet he was a lay chela. TaKe a loo=
k
>at the Mahatma Letters.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: Cass Silva
> >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> >Subject: Re: Theos-World Did Socrates  Need  Outer Initiation?
> >Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2006 18:41:27 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >Hello Carlos
> >It seems inconsistent to me that some disciples are "beyond initiation".
> >HPB tells us that she was a Chela and as such was the voice of the=20
>masters.
> >  My reading of Julian is that he was initiated.
> >
> >My understanding of initiation is that the neophyte must first master
> >himself, become a centre of  honesty, truthfullness and compassionate
> >before he is given the keys to the mysteries of life.  That is knowledge=
=20
>of
> >our true existence, knowledge of all the planes in nature, knowledge of=
=20
>our
> >universe,etc.  If this knowledge was given to one who was not fully in
> >control of self (i.e. Socrates daimon) he could not be trusted not to
> >misuse his powers, even to the point of providing information beyond his
> >own comprehension as was the case again of Socrates.
> >
> >"All initiation is really a test or trial, but the preparation for that
> >test or trial is daily life....What we call Initiation is simply the
> >showing by the neophyte in the tests and there laid upon him, whether hi=
s
> >daily life's training has been sufficiently strong to make him fit to=20
>hitch
> >his chariot to the stars."
> >
> >"The tests are these: Can you face the denizens of other planes and=20
>prevail
> >with them in peace?  Do you know what that means?  Are you absolutely=20
>sure
> >of yourself?  The man who cannot even face himself and conquer himself=20
>when
> >required on this familiar plane where he lives, how can be expect to fac=
e
> >with safety the habitants of other planes, not only the elementals - the=
y
> >are not by any means the worst - but the intelligent creatures, beings,
> >living on other planes?
> >
> >
> >"Now then, anyone who has mastered himself, perhaps not completely, but=
=20
>who
> >knows that if he sets his will to it he can control anything in his own
> >character, and knows it by proving it, is ready to go through initiation=
.
> >When this knowledge comes to him then he is given the chance.  So many
> >people seem to think that Initiations are privileges granted to people=20
>who
> >pretend to live the holy life and that kind of thing, but I will tell yo=
u
> >something more that I myself know because I have seen it in my fellow=20
>human
> >beings: there is more chance for the man or the woman who has striven
> >honestly and has fallen and risen again, in other words for one who has
> >eaten the bread of bitterness, who has become softened and strengthened=
=20
>by
> >it, that there is for one who has never passed through the fire.  So
> >compassionate and pitiful is universal nature, that it is precisely thos=
e
> >who stumble on the path who are often in the end the richer.  Holiness
> >comes from the struggles with self
> >  fought and lost, and fought and lost, and fought and Won.  And then
> >compassion enters the heart, and pity, and understanding.  We become=20
>gentle
> >with others. Wind of the Spirit, G de Purucker.
> >
> >Cheers
> >Cass
> >
> >carlosaveline cardoso aveline  wrote:
> >Cass,
> >
> >
> >Thanks.
> >
> >Yes, HPB said Socrates was "not initiated" --  but not initiated in what=
?
> >
> >It is clear: he was not initiated in the conventional, Western,  physica=
l
> >plane Mysteries of his own time and society.   Physical level,=20
>conventional
> >initiation means affiliation and often dependence.
> >
> >Julian, who WAS initiated in the Mysteries as HPB informs,  writes (in=20
>his
> >Oration VII)  that Socrates of Athens,  like Diogenes, the Cynic, DID NO=
T
> >NEED  to be initiated  because they both had "direct sources" so to say.
> >
> >In saying this, Julian was only anticipating his own fate, in a way, as=
=20
>he
> >also died for "revealing too much", as HPB writes ( BCW, volume XIV). =
=20
>She
> >compares Julian and Socrates with a favourable view of both of them.
> >
> >Socrates was ABOVE the Mysteries of his time, then. His link was inner.
> >
> >I should  bring more evidences, and references, about this issue, here.
> >
> >Many theosophists use to get too  enthusiastic with Plato and there is,=
=20
>to
> >my view, a misunderstanding of HPB's real position with regard to=20
>Socrates,
> >as if she thought he was "beneath initiation".  She did not. We must not
> >idealize the Greek Mysteries too much. As a corporation, it had great
> >limitations, of which Socrates was free.
> >
> >Philosophy, with its free thought, goes far beyond myths and mystery
> >corporations/organizations.
> >Yet as it explains myths and reveal them, it gets into dangerous waters=
=20
>for
> >ortodoxy.
> >
> >
> >So does Theosophy. HPB had much in common with Socrates, with Julian --=
=20
>and
> >even something in common with Diogenes, the Cynic, too.  She, too, was
> >accused of "talking too much" -- ask Subba Row about that...
> >
> >
> >Regards,  Carlos.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: Cass Silva
> > >Reply-To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > >To: theos-talk@yahoogroups.com
> > >Subject: Re: Theos-World THE ONLY REAL TEMPLE
> > >Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2006 19:31:05 -0800 (PST)
> > >
> > >Hello Carlos
> > >I read this a little differently in that HPB is suggesting that=20
>Socrates
> > >was not initiated, but new the path to initiation came by knowing
> >thyself.
> > >Self, whether divine or human.  So perhaps she is suggesting that the
> >first
> > >stage is to know our human self, in truth and without judgement before
> >the
> > >heavenly man will manifest?
> > >Cass
> > >
> > >if otherwise, then, like Socrates repeating to himself, as well as to=
=20
>his
> > >fellow-men, the noble injuction, =E2=80=98O man, know thyself=E2=80=99=
=E2=80=99, he
> >succeeded
> > >in
> > >recognizing his God within himself." (1)
> > >
> > >Cass
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >carlosaveline cardoso aveline  wrote:
> > >
> > >oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> > >
> > >THE ONLY REAL TEMPLE  -- WHERE IS IT?
> > >
> > >ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
> > >
> > >
> > >Dear Friends,
> > >
> > >
> > >Outer, physical  Temples can be seen, at best, as metaphors for,
> > >or projections of, the temple or divine presence in our own
> >consciousness.
> > >
> > >Referring to the old Socrates of Athens, , H. P. Blavatsky wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >=EF=BF=BDFrom the  days of the primitive man described by the first Ve=
dic=20
>poet,
> > >down
> > >to our modern poet, there has not been a philosopher worthy of that=20
>name,
> > >who did not carry in the silent sanctuary of his heart the grand and
> > >mysterious truth. If initiated, he learnt it as a sacred science; if
> > >otherwise, then, like Socrates repeating to himself, as well as to his
> > >fellow-men, the noble injuction, =EF=BF=BDO man, know thyself=EF=BF=BD=
=EF=BF=BD, he
> >succeeded
> > >in
> > >recognizing his God within himself." (1)
> > >
> > >The esoteric movement is only a stimulating and testing common ground=
=20
>for
> > >that inner recognition.
> > >
> > >Best regards,  Carlos Cardoso Aveline
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >NOTE:
> > >(1) =EF=BF=BDIsis Unveiled=EF=BF=BD, by H. P. Blavatsky, Theosophical =
University
> >Press,
> > >Pasadena, California, USA, 1988, two volumes, see volume II, p. 318.
> > >Reproduced by H.P. Blavatsky in =EF=BF=BDCollected Writing=EF=BF=BD, T=
PH Wheaton,
> > >volume
> > >XIV, 1985, 733 pp., see p. 48.
> > >
> > >_________________________________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
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