Re: Theos-World Re: Jerry- Fundamentalist misrepresentations of the Bible
Mar 30, 2006 05:43 PM
by Jerry Hejka-Ekins
Okay, that's very nice. Then how do you feel about the various
class sessions with their respective speakers?
You need to understand that I live in California, 2,000 miles away from
Olcott. So, I am in no position to attend their classes etc. I, of
course, know many of the presenters personally and/or through their
publications, and I have varying opinions, depending upon who you have
in mind. If I lived in the area, I would probably attend some
presentations and not others. Also, it might help you to know that I
have been a TS member for forty-three years, studied, led classes,
presented lectures, organized conferences, attended conventions etc. for
more years than many of the presenters you have heard at Olcott. What I
am saying is; much of what you are hearing and seeing at Olcott for the
first time is old hat for me.
Do they stay true to the original spirit of the organization? For example, I am
attending a number of the directors' classes (Ethics of the Secret
Doctrine; The Law of Cycles, etc.) at the Wheaton Headquarters,
coupled with sporadic attendance when a new guest speaker is invited
each week.
Your use of "they" makes this a pretty general question, asking for a
blanket evaluation. In fairness I cannot do that. Instead, I will
answer this way: Each of those presenters have their own understanding
and perspective of the Secret Doctrine and of ethics. Olcott has
certain favorites who they ask to speak on the Secret Doctrine, so I
have a general idea of who you have heard. Of those who I know, or have
read their writings, some are very good. Others, in my opinion, frankly
don't know what they are talking about. As for "ethics" that is a
subject close to my heart, as well as my wife's. If you want a
recommendation, the most knowledgeable person I know of in terms of
Theosophy, Blavatsky, Secret Doctrine etc. who teaches and lives
Theosophical ethics, is a woman named Vonda Urban. I don't know if she
has ever been invited to speak at Olcott, but she does (or did) speak at
various Lodges in the Chicago area. You might check her out and let me
know what you think. If you cannot locate her, then email me privately
and I will give you the particulars on how to contact her, and a letter
of introduction. She lives in the central Chicago area and and has been
teaching Theosophy continuously for 30 years that I know of. My wife
studied with her for a couple of years before moving to California.
Since my wife's doctoral dissertation was about teaching ethics in
public institutions, teaches the subject at our California State
University, and has been a student of Theosophy for over 25 years, I
think she is a good judge of who really understands and practices
Theosophical ethics. She gives Vonda an A+. As for Vonda's
understanding of Theosophical teachings, I also give her an A+.
Wow, that sounds pretty industrious. I'm glad that you have such a
positive focus. I was a corporate instructor myself for many years,
although that was all strictly business, working for millionaires
that I had never personally met. I taught a couple hundred
employees between two different companies, both on-site and in-
classroom, hiring half of the ones that I taught. I taught package
handlers at UPS, and inventory specialists at RGIS. Two different
companies.
Good background. Perhaps you have some advice for us?
What things do you teach for your non-profit educational
organization that you run?
We promote perennialism. Perennialism is the notion that all the wold's
major religions and spiritual traditions have a common resource of
ideas--call it a primordial tradition, or a wisdom tradition, or an
ancient wisdom. We explore the world's literature and traditions, hold
classes, seminars, field trips, meditation retreats, and publish a
quarterly journal. We have a web site, but it is in desperate need of
up-dating. But you can get some basic information about us at:
www.alexandriawest.org
That's very nice. And I do believe that this is how most non-
profits start out in the beginning. And some, like yours, can even
extend this positive focus for several decades. However, I suggest
that size and time inevitably come into play with growing
organizations. As organizations grow larger over many extended
decades, they become increasingly more rigid in their policies. I
call it the 'cycle of governments' for lack of a better term. This
is mostly size and time related.
Yes. I have seen this and have from the beginning been cognizant of the
possibility of this fate for Alexandria West after I am dead. This may
be a natural down hill course for organizations, does not have to be the
case. I have seen non profits in Los Angeles which are over 50 years
old which did not fall into this trap. It is not fated. Much depends
upon how the successive Board members hold to the original values of the
organization. I do agree that such a fall is related to size. As an
organization get wealthier, opportunities open for those greedy for a
piece of the pie or for personal power. But, once again, this too does
not have to be. I could go into particulars about one or two
organizations, but then this would become a very long post.
For example, let's say that your organization grows in the next few
years, to the point where you begin to require paid staffing.
Hypothetically, you may even boost up to 100-1000 volunteers, whom
you won't be able to directly manage without hiring 5-10 paid
staff. As you do this, you'll invariably need to extend a rigid
ruleset concerning safety procedures, legal procedures and the
like. The reason that you'll begin enforcing a few strict rules
here and there (even though remaining flexible on many, if not most)
is because some volunteer(s) will eventually do something flagrant
that counters the best interests of the organizational agenda.
Yes, we are aware of these issues. My wife teaches Public Administration.
What I'm really trying to communicate is the concept that every
national government, corporate business, educational system or
religious church begins as somewhat of a rebel faction (whether
bloody or polite) seeking independence from a cruel 'overlord'
organization. All organizations fall into this category, albeit
intensity and degree vary.
You sound like you have taken one of my wife's courses :-)
Every independent entrepreneur is a dissatisfied rebel at heart
(some bloody and some polite), who detests the way that things were
done by the previous 'overlord'. Therefore a new and better
government system is built, due to failures of the previous. Until,
of course, with size and time, it too becomes increasingly
political. Some moreso and some less so. Size and time are
responsible for this, requiring more rigid rulesets. The rulesets
create red tape, and thus we have politics. You must resist the
windy elements themselves, for times always change. The 'cycle of
governments'.
And there begins the public corruption.
I have a number of religious books outside of Christianity. In
fact, one quite extraordinary work is "World Scripture: A
Comparative Anthology of Sacred Texts" authored by the International
Religious Foundation and published by Paragon House. This 900 page
volume topically categorizes excerpts from all prominent ancient
religious texts from religions across the world, with no commentary
attached. It is a bible of bibles, so to speak. Comprised of all
primary world religions. You may wish to glance at it, if you
haven't encountered this treasure already.
Our approach is to engage each text individually from a cultural and
historical context. Comparisons then come up in discussions.
Now do I actually have time and energy to read entire ancient texts
beyond the bible? No, I don't. Does a corporate manager have time
to become a doctor and a lawyer and a psychiatrist and an accountant
simultaneously? Does such constitute wisdom? What I am relegated
to do is specialize in one or two areas (the Bible in this case),
and turn to outside teachers for the rest.
perhaps in your retirement...
I have many precious books in my library, but I haven't actually
read them all thoroughly. So I acquire teachers along the road,
here and there, to fill me in on what I've missed. These teachers
illumine me to small excerpts of their own fields of specialty. The
corporate manager hires the doctor, the lawyer, the psychiatrist and
the accountant, thereby gaining additional, albeit miniscule,
fragments of knowledge here and there.
As we all must do.
Hhmm, I come to different conclusions, but we've obviously used
different sources.
No doubt.
Here is the most basic breakdown, with minor deviations contained
therein:
1. Genesis to Esther (Historical Old Testament)
2. Job to Malachi (Metaphorical Old Testament)
3. Matthew to Acts (Historical New Testament)
4. Romans to Revelation (Metaphorical New Testament)
Interesting exegesis. Then, as an historical work, you would say that
there was literally a first couple name Adam and Eve who lived in a
garden and conversed with a serpent....?
Have you actually found counter-evidence to the biblical records, or
have the biblical records simply not been affirmatively validated to
you?
How do you define and what would you accept as "counter-evidence"?
Hence spiritual clairvoyace is superior to the mere visions and
dreams. The dreamer is asleep and masked, operating via
subconsciously-derived symbols. But the spiritual clairvoyant is
fully aware and awake, with all dream imageries having fully
dissipated. Dreams are merely a veil which serve to temporarily
protect the ego consciousness from it's own disintegration incurred
by spiritual enlightenment.
Numbers 12
6 He said, "Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I,
the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak
with him in a dream.
7 "Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My
household;
8 With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark
sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not
afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses?"
(NAS95)
Here we see a differentiation between slumbering dreamers and
spiritually conscious revelators.
Yes. Well said, and a good quote.
The subconscious
psyche has many dark things contained within, which often go
unattended and uncleansed. The most severe instances of the
subconscious psyche opening up too quickly result in mass murder
cases and severe mental derangements. However, the wise sages of
antiquity take the slow road.
Yes.
Best,
Jerry
Vincent wrote:
Jerry-
You wrote:
"Actually I attribute the failures of the Theosophical Society to
the leadership. The Theosophical Society and its members were the
victims. IMO, its greatest success today has been their efforts to
publish and keep in print the collected writings of Blavatsky. They
have an outstanding library at the National Headquarters. They
publish some important classics. I like many of its members."
Okay, that's very nice. Then how do you feel about the various
class sessions with their respective speakers? Do they stay true to
the original spirit of the organization? For example, I am
attending a number of the directors' classes (Ethics of the Secret
Doctrine; The Law of Cycles, etc.) at the Wheaton Headquarters,
coupled with sporadic attendance when a new guest speaker is invited
each week.
"Yes, non profits organizations, like any other effort requires
money to operate. And, I suspect that certain non profit
organizations, like United Way, is primarily oriented to collecting
and distributing money. With its highly paid officers including its
CEO which collects a multi-million dollar salary, I'm sure that
there is a lot of politics."
Indeed.
"On the other hand, such places as the United Way have move far away
from the original concept of non-profits, and are not necessarily
representative. I am president-founder of a non-profit educational
organization. The Board meetings typically last for 3 to 4 hours.
The treasurer's report takes 5 to 10 minutes. The rest of the time
we talk about planning programs, classes, our journal etc. Rather
than talking about how to get more money, we talk about and plan
services."
Wow, that sounds pretty industrious. I'm glad that you have such a
positive focus. I was a corporate instructor myself for many years,
although that was all strictly business, working for millionaires
that I had never personally met. I taught a couple hundred
employees between two different companies, both on-site and in-
classroom, hiring half of the ones that I taught. I taught package
handlers at UPS, and inventory specialists at RGIS. Two different
companies. What things do you teach for your non-profit educational
organization that you run?
"No one on the Board, or connected in any way with the organization
receives a salary. In fact, Board members are required to donate a
predetermined amount of their own money to the organization.
However, volunteers are reimbursed for out of pocket expenses--but
not for their time. What I am saying is that is is quite possible
for non profit organizations to be primarily focused on service--not
getting money. They do not have to be "money centered". We have
proved that. Ours are on a donation bases. Some people pay and
some don't"
That's very nice. And I do believe that this is how most non-
profits start out in the beginning. And some, like yours, can even
extend this positive focus for several decades. However, I suggest
that size and time inevitably come into play with growing
organizations. As organizations grow larger over many extended
decades, they become increasingly more rigid in their policies. I
call it the 'cycle of governments' for lack of a better term. This
is mostly size and time related.
For example, let's say that your organization grows in the next few
years, to the point where you begin to require paid staffing.
Hypothetically, you may even boost up to 100-1000 volunteers, whom
you won't be able to directly manage without hiring 5-10 paid
staff. As you do this, you'll invariably need to extend a rigid
ruleset concerning safety procedures, legal procedures and the
like. The reason that you'll begin enforcing a few strict rules
here and there (even though remaining flexible on many, if not most)
is because some volunteer(s) will eventually do something flagrant
that counters the best interests of the organizational agenda.
What I'm really trying to communicate is the concept that every
national government, corporate business, educational system or
religious church begins as somewhat of a rebel faction (whether
bloody or polite) seeking independence from a cruel 'overlord'
organization. All organizations fall into this category, albeit
intensity and degree vary.
Every independent entrepreneur is a dissatisfied rebel at heart
(some bloody and some polite), who detests the way that things were
done by the previous 'overlord'. Therefore a new and better
government system is built, due to failures of the previous. Until,
of course, with size and time, it too becomes increasingly
political. Some moreso and some less so. Size and time are
responsible for this, requiring more rigid rulesets. The rulesets
create red tape, and thus we have politics. You must resist the
windy elements themselves, for times always change. The 'cycle of
governments'.
"Have you studied scriptures of other religions and spiritualities?"
I have a number of religious books outside of Christianity. In
fact, one quite extraordinary work is "World Scripture: A
Comparative Anthology of Sacred Texts" authored by the International
Religious Foundation and published by Paragon House. This 900 page
volume topically categorizes excerpts from all prominent ancient
religious texts from religions across the world, with no commentary
attached. It is a bible of bibles, so to speak. Comprised of all
primary world religions. You may wish to glance at it, if you
haven't encountered this treasure already.
Now do I actually have time and energy to read entire ancient texts
beyond the bible? No, I don't. Does a corporate manager have time
to become a doctor and a lawyer and a psychiatrist and an accountant
simultaneously? Does such constitute wisdom? What I am relegated
to do is specialize in one or two areas (the Bible in this case),
and turn to outside teachers for the rest.
I have many precious books in my library, but I haven't actually
read them all thoroughly. So I acquire teachers along the road,
here and there, to fill me in on what I've missed. These teachers
illumine me to small excerpts of their own fields of specialty. The
corporate manager hires the doctor, the lawyer, the psychiatrist and
the accountant, thereby gaining additional, albeit miniscule,
fragments of knowledge here and there.
"I got the idea from a lifetime of reading the scriptures, reading
the works of theologians and of secular Biblical scholars, and doing
my own research on the subject."
Hhmm, I come to different conclusions, but we've obviously used
different sources.
"What parts do you find historical? What parts do you
find "mythical"? What parts do you find evangelical?"
Here is the most basic breakdown, with minor deviations contained
therein:
1. Genesis to Esther (Historical Old Testament)
2. Job to Malachi (Metaphorical Old Testament)
3. Matthew to Acts (Historical New Testament)
4. Romans to Revelation (Metaphorical New Testament)
The Bible is subdivided into these four basic classifications by the
original canonizers, with minor exceptions contained in the
subsections of each.
I would even assert that the book arrangements could be reordered as
follows:
Book One: Historical (Genesis to Esther; Matthew to Acts) containing
a chronology of historical events. Often used for historical
teaching formats. Good for visual learners with emphasis on
application versus interpretation.
Book Two: Metaphorical (Job to Malachi; Romans to Revelation)
containing a series of prophecies, poems, teachings and metaphors.
Often used for topical teaching formats. Good for auditory learners
with emphasis on interpretation versus application.
If we utterly eliminated the differentiation between the Old and New
Testaments, we would instead have this format of a historical volume
(Genesis to Esther and Matthew to Acts) and a metaphorical volume
(Job to Malachi and Romans to Revelation). The books were concisely
arranged in this fashion by the canonizers of scripture. The
historical books are arranged according to strict sequential
timelines, whereas the metaphorical books are arranged morese by
size and prominency of author.
"By historical difficulties, I mean that they most probably never
occurred."
Have you actually found counter-evidence to the biblical records, or
have the biblical records simply not been affirmatively validated to
you?
""Spiritual clairvoyance" is direct spiritual perception that
bypasses the mind and visionary images. It come through a center of
perception that does not involve the mind."
Hence spiritual clairvoyace is superior to the mere visions and
dreams. The dreamer is asleep and masked, operating via
subconsciously-derived symbols. But the spiritual clairvoyant is
fully aware and awake, with all dream imageries having fully
dissipated. Dreams are merely a veil which serve to temporarily
protect the ego consciousness from it's own disintegration incurred
by spiritual enlightenment.
Numbers 12
6 He said, "Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I,
the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak
with him in a dream.
7 "Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My
household;
8 With him I speak mouth to mouth, Even openly, and not in dark
sayings, And he beholds the form of the LORD. Why then were you not
afraid To speak against My servant, against Moses?"
(NAS95)
Here we see a differentiation between slumbering dreamers and
spiritually conscious revelators.
"Interesting idea. The traditions I follow warn about the snares of
psychism. But I also know the dangers from experience. I used to
work in an open setting psychiatric hospital where I had the chance
to observe and interact with lots of very psychic people. Some were
telepathic, some had visions, some had conversations with God etc.
Since I also have some natural abilities, I could see a lot of
things that were going on that the psychiatrists had no idea about."
I suggest that many people (perhaps 1 out of 10 in our US population
as a very wild guess) have their psychic centers opened up either
prematurely or too quickly, either through drug usage or traumatic
life events, thereby rendering them mentally ill. The subconscious
psyche has many dark things contained within, which often go
unattended and uncleansed. The most severe instances of the
subconscious psyche opening up too quickly result in mass murder
cases and severe mental derangements. However, the wise sages of
antiquity take the slow road.
"Is this story, for you, historical, allegorical, metaphorical
or...?"
All of the above.
"What do you mean by "materialistic pseudo-spirituality" and "lower
psychic centers of our unconscious"?"
1. Materialistic pseudo-spirituality: a psuedo-spiritually which
centers moreso around what the material five senses percieve, while
operating in ignorance of the supernatural realms of spirits and
ghosts. Namely, the realm of classical psychology, which is often
basely mistaken for spirituality.
2. Lower psychic centers of our subconscious: the approximated 90%
of our brain which does not operate with conscious thought, emotion,
volition and conscience. We sleep eight hours per night and awake
to a sixteen hour day. But when we wake up in the morning, only 10%
of our brain actually is conscious, and we remain in a 90% slumber.
We walk about as mere sleepwalkers day to day throughout our daily
routines. Full brain consciousness enables the full gamut of
psychic abilities.
Blessings
Vince
--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jjhe@...>
wrote:
Dear Vince,
And aside from these failures which you attribute to the
Theosophical Society, in what ways do you think they have still
been
subsequently successful today?
Actually I attribute the failures of the Theosophical Society to
the
leadership. The Theosophical Society and its members were the
victims.
IMO, its greatest success today has been their efforts to publish
and
keep in print the collected writings of Blavatsky.
What things still appeal to you about the Theosophical Society
today?
They have an outstanding library at the National Headquarters.
They
publish some important classics. I like many of its members.
I believe that not-for-profit corporations are just as money-
centered as for-profit corporations. They both require money to
operate, and are permeated with organizational politics at their
highest ranks. They just obtain their money in different ways.
Yes, non profits organizations, like any other effort requires
money to
operate. And, I suspect that certain non profit organizations,
like
United Way, is primarily oriented to collecting and distributing
money.
With its highly paid officers including its CEO which collects a
multi-million dollar salary, I'm sure that there is a lot of
politics.
On the other hand, such places as the United Way have move far
away from
the original concept of non-profits, and are not necessarily
representative. I am president-founder of a non-profit
educational
organization. The Board meetings typically last for 3 to 4
hours. The
treasurer's report takes 5 to 10 minutes. The rest of the time we
talk
about planning programs, classes, our journal etc. Rather than
talking
about how to get more money, we talk about and plan services. No
one on
the Board, or connected in any way with the organization receives
a
salary. In fact, Board members are required to donate a
predetermined
amount of their own money to the organization. However,
volunteers are
reimbursed for out of pocket expenses--but not for their time.
What I
am saying is that is is quite possible for non profit
organizations to
be primarily focused on service--not getting money. They do not
have to
be "money centered". We have proved that.
I believe that religious, philosophical and educational
organizations are first and foremost out to make money.
Not ours.
Their services are strictly delivered at a price.
Ours are on a donation bases. Some people pay and some don't.
They may meet spiritual
and intellectual needs, but only for a monetary fee. Money is
central and donations are key.
Not in our case. Service is key.
I suggest that there is such a wealth in the Bible that we
currently
retain, that even if we lost another 50% of it today, we'd still
retain more spiritual treasure within it than we could
qualitatively
ingest in a lifetime.
Have you studied scriptures of other religions and spiritualities?
I'm not sure where you get this idea. I suggest that the gospels
were very much intended as historical texts, even if
evangelistically focused. Luke attempts to focus on each detail
for
accuracy, for example. Now one may say that the historical
methods
of recording and/or verifying information 2000 years ago was not
as
precise as it is today, but the gospels are historically-intended
documents nonetheless, even while remaining evangelistic.
I got the idea from a lifetime of reading the scriptures, reading
the
works of theologians and of secular Biblical scholars, and doing
my own
research on the subject.
I suggest that the historicity of the gospels and the presence of
Greek cultural overtones are not mutually exclusive. The two can
exist together.
What parts do you find historical? What parts do you
find "mythical"?
What parts do you find evangelical?
These historical difficulties do not elimate the fact that the
gospels are originally intended as historical documents. Rather,
you're just not satisfied with their degree of historical
accuracy
by today's standards. Those are two very different scenarios.
By historical difficulties, I mean that they most probably never
occurred.
Yes, some of these practices were used by ancient Indians. I'm
not
certain how you're using the term 'spiritual clairvoyance'
"Spiritual clairvoyance" is direct spiritual perception that
bypasses
the mind and visionary images. It come through a center of
perception
that does not involve the mind.
, but I
nonetheless suggest that higher spirituality is not attained
without
first opening up the lower psychic realms for purposes of
cleansing. In this sense, one must pass through the hells (the
darkness of the psychic subconscious) before entering the heavens
(gaining spiritual enlightenment).
Interesting idea. The traditions I follow warn about the snares of
psychism. But I also know the dangers from experience. I used to
work
in an open setting psychiatric hospital where I had the chance to
observe and interact with lots of very psychic people. Some were
telepathic, some had visions, some had conversations with God
etc.
Since I also have some natural abilities, I could see a lot of
things
that were going on that the psychiatrists had no idea about.
This is very similar to the concept that Jesus himself descended
into the hells and subsequently ascended into the heavens. Or
when
he was tempted by the devil in the wilderness prior to his
earthly
ministry.
Is this story, for you, historical, allegorical, metaphorical
or...?
If the lower psychic centers are not opened so that they can be
cleansed, we will merely adopt a materialistic pseudo-
spirituality
as a result, which is even more dangerous than opening up the
lower
psychic centers of our subconscious.
What do you mean by "materialistic pseudo-spirituality" and "lower
psychic centers of our unconscious"?
Best
Jerry
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