Theos-Talk Archives (March 2006 Message tt01406)

You wrote:

"Well, it looks like you also grew up in a divided household.  I 
think it is pretty natural for people in our situations to become 
more weary about what we are told.  It is sort of a survival 
mechanism.  How else does one live among family members with 
conflicting world views, except to either before loyal to one or to 
step away and work it our for one's self?"

I fully agree.  That makes perfect sense, and I can see how that 
would make me question alot of things, now that you mention it.

"Love those euphemisms.  I wasn't two years in the Theosophical 
Society when people began to call me "outspoken."  What they really 
meant was one who was disturbing to their tranquility."

The Christian fundamentalist church has declared me to be 'candid'.  
I'm brand newly attending the Theosophical Society of Wheaton, and 
am therefore still evaluating the organization.  Did you find that 
there was friction there somewhere between you?

"Yes, I left that part out.  I was about 16 when that started."

Same here, but maybe about 14 for my metaphysical experiences.

"The nearest Unitarian Church is about a 1/2 hour away from us too.  
But we found that to be the best place to find kindred souls."

I've visited a few services at the Unitarian Church, and really 
loved it.  I guess that's not too far to drive.

"I agree.  But I would add that centuries of cultural norms that have
translated into theological traditions have been distorting biblical
interpretation since almost the beginning."

Most certainly.

"You wouldn't likely hear it in an Evangelical setting, but it is a
prevailing view in biblical scholarship."

Okay.

"Yes, the biblical and theological Jesus.  But, as one looks more 
closely to find the historical Jesus in the scriptures, the picture 
get more and more blurry."

I'm not aware of any other source than the Bible to find clues about 
the historical Jesus.  There are a few pseudopigraphal texts to be 
sure, but they only reveal so much.

"They might not be clear on their meaning.  I remember once a couple 
of Jehovah Witnesses came to the door and said something about their 
belief that sounded like a Gnostic doctrine.  I said, "you sound 
like you are Gnostics."  One of the ladies said, "Oh no, were not 
agnostics.""

I was labeled as a gnostic, because I periodically engage in fasting 
like they did in the Bible.  Even though I consider myself to be 
agnostic.  I told them that I practice trance as well.  The 
word 'trance' is used twice in the book of Acts in the NASB.  Once 
referring to Peter and once referring to Paul.  My trance-fasting 
was labeled gnostic by the Christian fundamentalists.  And therefore 
evil.

"It looks to me that Paul has much more to do with defining 
Christianity than Jesus."

This may be true concerning the Gentile churches that Paul had 
fashioned, but the practices of the early Jewish Church under Peter 
and James were much closer to Jesus' original vision and teachings.  
The two systems had very different forms.  The early Jewish Church 
was much more communal in it's living style, for example, whereas 
Paul's Gentile churches were much more like corporate entities.  I 
suggest that there is a vast differentiation between the two.

"Then the Bible becomes a launching point for the development of a
personal mysticism.  There are a lot of mystics in Church history who
have done just that.  Presently I'm more interested in engaging the
scriptures from an historical/cultural perspective.  For instance, 
how the first century Greeks and Romans understood the Gospel of 
Mark; where Clement of Alexandria got his ideas etc."

I believe that both are vital for a more complete understanding of 
the biblical records.  The historical and the mystical really need 
to go together.

"I would be very careful about the literal interpretation of the 
text.  Aside from the normal problems of translating from an ancient 
language like Greek into a modern language like English, the 
scriptures are full of cultural allusions which are completely 
missed by the modern reader."

Again, I shoot for a middleground here, embracing both the literal 
and metaphorical interpretive methods.

Vince

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jjhe@...> 
wrote:
>
> Dear Vince,
> 
> Well, it looks like you also grew up in a divided household.  I 
think it 
> is pretty natural for people in our situations to become more 
weary 
> about what we are told.  It is sort of a survival mechanism.  How 
else 
> does one live among family members with conflicting world views, 
except 
> to either before loyal to one or to step away and work it our for 
one's 
> self?
> 
> >Nonetheless, my questions caused me to be 
> >labeled as a thinker.
> >
> Love those euphemisms.  I wasn't two years in the Theosophical 
Society 
> when people began to call me "outspoken."  What they really meant 
was 
> one who was disturbing to their tranquility.
> 
> >Years later I began 
> >having metaphysical experiences 
> >
> Yes, I left that part out.  I was about 16 when that started. 
> 
> >I only discovered the 
> >existence of unitarian churches this last year, but they are all 
a 
> >half hour away from me.
> >
> The nearest Unitarian Church is about a 1/2 hour away from us 
too.  But 
> we found that to be the best place to find kindred souls.
> 
> >I believe that shortcomings in present-day cultural norms distort 
> >biblical interpretation quite a bit.
> >
> I agree.  But I would add that centuries of cultural norms that 
have 
> translated into theological traditions have been distorting 
biblical 
> interpretation since almost the beginning. 
> 
> >1. The Gospels were not written to be historical accounts of 
> >Jesus' life.  Rather, they are evangelical tracts written for the 
> >purpose of gaining converts and to answer the objections of 
critics 
> >of the early Christians."
> >
> >Okay, I never heard that one before.
> >
> You wouldn't likely hear it in an Evangelical setting, but it is a 
> prevailing view in biblical scholarship.
> 
> >"2. One must therefore, make a distinction between the historical 
> >Jesus, the Jesus represented in the Gospels, and the theological 
> >Jesus."
> >
> >I just tend to differentiate between the Jesus of the Bible and 
the 
> >Jesus of Christian fundamentalists.  They don't seem quite the 
same.
> >
> Yes, the biblical and theological Jesus.  But, as one looks more 
closely 
> to find the historical Jesus in the scriptures, the picture get 
more and 
> more blurry.
> 
> >Okay, I follow.  Government definitely got heavily involved.  
Very 
> >political.
> >  
> >
> Indeed.
> 
> >I got labeled as a gnostic too by the fundamentalist church 
through 
> >formal excommunication.  The funny thing though was that I was 
> >actually agnostic when the church declared me to be gnostic.  Go 
> >figure.
> >
> They might not be clear on their meaning.  I remember once a 
couple of 
> Jehovah Witnesses came to the door and said something about their 
belief 
> that sounded like a Gnostic doctrine.  I said, "you sound like you 
are 
> Gnostics."  One of the ladies said, "Oh no, were not agnostics."
> 
> > "5. The members of these other Christian communities considered 
> >themselves to be just as Christian as those belonging to the sect 
> >adopted by the Emperors."
> >
> >I'm sure they did.  Jesus probably fell in the same boat.
> >
> It looks to me that Paul has much more to do with defining 
Christianity 
> than Jesus.
> 
> >"7. Because of 4 and 6, our knowledge of the earliest history of 
> >the Christian movement is fragmentary, biased in favor of the 
early 
> >Roman church, and much is left to conjecture and theological 
> >manipulation."
> >
> >Perhaps some form of metaphysical revelation will have to suffice 
> >then.  I interpret the Bible metaphysically for the most part, 
> >although simultaneously aware of what the literal text says.
> >
> Then the Bible becomes a launching point for the development of a 
> personal mysticism.  There are a lot of mystics in Church history 
who 
> have done just that.  Presently I'm more interested in engaging 
the 
> scriptures from an historical/cultural perspective.  For instance, 
how 
> the first century Greeks and Romans understood the Gospel of Mark; 
where 
> Clement of Alexandria got his ideas etc.
> 
> I would be very careful about the literal interpretation of the 
text.  
> Aside from the normal problems of translating from an ancient 
language 
> like Greek into a modern language like English, the scriptures are 
full 
> of cultural allusions which are completely missed by the modern 
reader. 
> 
> Best
> Jerry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vincent wrote:
> 
> >Jerry-
> >
> >You wrote:
> >
> >  "Dear Vince,
> > 
> >  Yes, I agree that we are in a similar boat, but got there in 
very 
> >different ways.  The three topics that my parents never discussed 
in 
> >front of the children were religion, politics and race.  So, I 
never 
> >really discovered these things until I was about twelve--and 
then, 
> >on my own.  They then became subjects of primary interest. Since 
I 
> >had no religious instruction from home, lived in a Jewish 
> >neighborhood, and attended a public school where everyone was 
> >Jewish, I just half assumed that I was a Jew, like everyone else."
> >
> >Hhmm, okay.  Interesting.  My mother has characteristically been 
> >privately religious (believes in God, but doesn't read the Bible 
or 
> >attend church), whereas my father has been more anti-religious 
> >(can't stand Christians or the Bible).  But then the religious 
> >institutions were quick to educate me in their religious agenda, 
> >just so long as I'd be sincere, believing with the heart prior to 
> >thinking with the mind.  Nonetheless, my questions caused me to 
be 
> >labeled as a thinker.
> >
> >  "As I entered my teens, I discovered the beatniks at Venice 
beach, 
> >and used to hang around them.  My mother became alarmed and 
decided 
> >that I must be becoming a "juvenile delinquent" and began to take 
me 
> >to a very conservative Lutheran Church. That was my first formal 
> >contact with Christianity. I found the services and sermons 
> >curious.  Lots of mysticism about an invisible god, a ressurected 
> >man, and promise of an afterlife if I believed the right things."
> >
> >That's actually a little bit ironic.  My mom took my brother and 
I 
> >to a Lutheran Church when my brother was becoming 
a 'delinquent'.  
> >(I was too young at the time for delinquency.)  Years later I 
began 
> >having metaphysical experiences (without drug usage), so I 
started 
> >attending church on my own to learn about the supernatural.  Of 
> >course, they eventually told me that my metaphysical experiences 
> >were bad, and that I needed to repent of them.
> >
> >  "The problem was that I didn't feel like I was damned. I 
> >understood about right and wrong actions, but this idea of "sin" 
was 
> >strange. Why should Eve's eating of an apple have anything to do 
> >with me?  After all, it was she who screwed up, not me.  Soon we 
> >began going to classes to learn about the religion. The notion of 
> >original sin remain illogical.  I couldn't buy it."
> >
> >Now me, I felt damned.  I noticed alot of crime transpiring in 
the 
> >world around me, although I was one to keep my nose clean.  But 
alot 
> >of people in my youth were outright criminally violent.  So I got 
> >the sin part down pretty well.  Nowadays though, I feel quite a 
bit 
> >different about sin concepts and where they originate from, but I 
> >was just a preteen then.
> > 
> >  "The Pastor spent most of his time talking about why 
Catholicism 
> >is in error and how awful the Jew were.  One night the Pastor 
told 
> >us that God is only now beginning to forgive the Jews for killing 
> >Jesus. That was the first time I ever heard such a thing and the 
> >remark deeply disturbed me. All of my friends were Jews and I 
didn't 
> >find them awful at all. The implication I got in the Pastor's 
> >remark, was that God must have been pleased with Hitler's 
attempted 
> >extermination of the Jews."
> >
> >That sounds a little bit like one of the comments that a former 
> >pastor of mine made about desiring to nuke the middle-east, to 
> >exterminate the races that Moses and Joshua missed during their 
Old 
> >Testament genocide campaigns.  Except he wanted the United States 
to 
> >carry it out, so Israel could get back the majority of the middle-
> >east territory like God had promised them in the Old Testament.  
> >More pro-Jew than anti-Jew, but into USA-originated nuclear 
genocide 
> >just the same.
> >
> >  "So, other than the unfortunate encounter with the Lutheran 
> >Pastor, I entered a study of Christianity with pretty much of a 
> >clean slate, and began by reading, on my own, the New English 
Bible 
> >of the NT, which had just been published for the first time.  
There 
> >I was delighted to discover that the three wise men were 
> >called "astrologers."  That delighted me because I had recently 
> >discovered that my aunt practiced astrology professionally, but 
out 
> >of respect for my mother's wishes, never mentioned it to me.  So, 
> >from the beginning, my investigation into Christianity had no 
> >theological guidance, which left me to my own resources to make 
of 
> >it what I could."
> >
> >I noticed the part about the three 'magi' (mages, magicians) 
too.  
> >The Bible is actually very metaphysical.
> > 
> >  "When the Nag Hammadi codices were published in translation 
around 
> >1970, I raced to the Bodhi Tree Bookstore and bought a copy.  I 
then 
> >began reading more scholarly commentaries on Christianity, 
Christian 
> >and Gnostic texts, beginning with Elaine Pagel's writings.  While 
> >all of this was happening, I attended churches and talked 
casually 
> >to ministers of various denominations. When we moved to Northern 
> >California, my wife and I began attending the Unitarian 
Universalist 
> >Church where a member with mainline Christian beliefs is not to 
be 
> >found."
> >
> >When I accumulated volumes containing a total of about 300 
different 
> >pseudopigraphal texts, I was strictly told that I was straying 
into 
> >heretical texts by fundamentalist Christians.  I only discovered 
the 
> >existence of unitarian churches this last year, but they are all 
a 
> >half hour away from me.  I'm surrounded by Christian 
fundamentalist 
> >megachurches where the pastoral salaries often exceed $100 
grand.  A 
> >congregation of 5000 people is just too small nowadays in my area.
> > 
> >  "So, like you I discovered that the Bible is misrepresented by 
a 
> >strange theological structure, but took a very different route to 
> >end up in the same place. When we started the Origins of 
> >Christianity class two years ago, I discovered that there were a 
lot 
> >of barriers to communication. Theological conditioning from years 
of 
> >church going was to blame.  One of them is as you mentioned: The 
> >Gospels read very differently from the theological 
interpretations. 
> >One member or out group who was raised in a conservative 
Christian 
> >home discovered this when we began studying Judaism and 
> >investigating the Hebrew scriptures."
> >
> >I believe that shortcomings in present-day cultural norms distort 
> >biblical interpretation quite a bit.
> >
> >  "Some other barriers that met with considerable resistance were:
> > 
> >  1. The Gospels were not written to be historical accounts of 
> >Jesus' life.  Rather, they are evangelical tracts written for the 
> >purpose of gaining converts and to answer the objections of 
critics 
> >of the early Christians."
> >
> >Okay, I never heard that one before.
> >
> >  "2. One must therefore, make a distinction between the 
historical 
> >Jesus, the Jesus represented in the Gospels, and the theological 
> >Jesus."
> >
> >I just tend to differentiate between the Jesus of the Bible and 
the 
> >Jesus of Christian fundamentalists.  They don't seem quite the 
same.
> >
> >  "3. There were, in the beginning dozens of Christian 
communities 
> >with very divergent beliefs.  Many of them had Gospels and 
religious 
> >writings of their own.  Most of these writings were destroyed 
after 
> >Christianity was declared the only legal religion of the empire.  
> >That is, the variety of Christianity adopted by the Emperor of 
Rome."
> >
> >Okay, I follow.  Government definitely got heavily involved.  
Very 
> >political.
> >
> >  "4. Since these other Christian communities, later 
> >called "gnostics," were outlawed and their writings destroyed, we 
> >know little about them except through a few meager texts that 
> >survived, and through the criticisms of the canonical church 
> >fathers."
> >
> >I got labeled as a gnostic too by the fundamentalist church 
through 
> >formal excommunication.  The funny thing though was that I was 
> >actually agnostic when the church declared me to be gnostic.  Go 
> >figure.
> >
> >  "5. The members of these other Christian communities considered 
> >themselves to be just as Christian as those belonging to the sect 
> >adopted by the Emperors."
> >
> >I'm sure they did.  Jesus probably fell in the same boat.
> >
> >  "6. Critical works of Christianity written by philosophers and 
> >other learned people were systematically destroyed.  All that 
> >survives are the reconstructed writings of Porphyry, Celsus, and 
the 
> >preserved orations of the apostate Emperor Julian."
> >
> >I'm not famiiar with those.
> >
> >  "7. Because of 4 and 6, our knowledge of the earliest history 
of 
> >the Christian movement is fragmentary, biased in favor of the 
early 
> >Roman church, and much is left to conjecture and theological 
> >manipulation."
> >
> >Perhaps some form of metaphysical revelation will have to suffice 
> >then.  I interpret the Bible metaphysically for the most part, 
> >although simultaneously aware of what the literal text says.
> >
> >Vince
> >
> >--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins <jjhe@> 
> >wrote:
> >  
> >
> >>Dear Vince,
> >>
> >>Yes, I agree that we are in a similar boat, but got there in 
very 
> >>different ways.  The three topics that my parents never 
discussed 
> >>    
> >>
> >in 
> >  
> >
> >>front of the children were religion, politics and race.  So, I 
> >>    
> >>
> >never 
> >  
> >
> >>really discovered these things until I was about twelve--and 
then, 
> >>    
> >>
> >on my 
> >  
> >
> >>own.  They then became subjects of primary interest. Since I had 
> >>    
> >>
> >no 
> >  
> >
> >>religious instruction from home, lived in a Jewish neighborhood, 
> >>    
> >>
> >and 
> >  
> >
> >>attended a public school where everyone was Jewish, I just half 
> >>    
> >>
> >assumed 
> >  
> >
> >>that I was a Jew, like everyone else.
> >>
> >>As I entered my teens, I discovered the beatniks at Venice 
beach, 
> >>    
> >>
> >and 
> >  
> >
> >>used to hang around them.  My mother became alarmed and decided 
> >>    
> >>
> >that I 
> >  
> >
> >>must be becoming a "juvenile delinquent" and began to take me to 
a 
> >>    
> >>
> >very 
> >  
> >
> >>conservative Lutheran Church. That was my first formal contact 
> >>    
> >>
> >with 
> >  
> >
> >>Christianity. I found the services and sermons curious.  Lots of 
> >>mysticism about an invisible god, a ressurected man, and promise 
> >>    
> >>
> >of an 
> >  
> >
> >>afterlife if I believed the right things.  The problem was that 
I 
> >>    
> >>
> >didn't 
> >  
> >
> >>feel like I was damned. I understood about right and wrong 
> >>    
> >>
> >actions, but 
> >  
> >
> >>this idea of "sin" was strange. Why should Eve's eating of an 
> >>    
> >>
> >apple have 
> >  
> >
> >>anything to do with me?  After all, it was she who screwed up, 
not 
> >>    
> >>
> >me.  
> >  
> >
> >>Soon we began going to classes to learn about the religion. The 
> >>    
> >>
> >notion 
> >  
> >
> >>of original sin remain illogical.  I couldn't buy it. 
> >>
> >>The Pastor spent most of his time talking about why Catholicism 
is 
> >>    
> >>
> >in 
> >  
> >
> >>error and how awful the Jew were.  One night the Pastor told us 
> >>    
> >>
> >that God 
> >  
> >
> >>is only now beginning to forgive the Jews for killing Jesus. 
That 
> >>    
> >>
> >was 
> >  
> >
> >>the first time I ever heard such a thing and the remark deeply 
> >>    
> >>
> >disturbed 
> >  
> >
> >>me. All of my friends were Jews and I didn't find them awful at 
> >>    
> >>
> >all. The 
> >  
> >
> >>implication I got in the Pastor's remark, was that God must have 
> >>    
> >>
> >been 
> >  
> >
> >>pleased with Hitler's attempted extermination of the Jews. 
> >>
> >>So, other than the unfortunate encounter with the Lutheran 
Pastor, 
> >>    
> >>
> >I 
> >  
> >
> >>entered a study of Christianity with pretty much of a clean 
slate, 
> >>    
> >>
> >and 
> >  
> >
> >>began by reading, on my own, the New English Bible of the NT, 
> >>    
> >>
> >which had 
> >  
> >
> >>just been published for the first time.  There I was delighted 
to 
> >>discover that the three wise men were called "astrologers."  
That 
> >>delighted me because I had recently discovered that my aunt 
> >>    
> >>
> >practiced 
> >  
> >
> >>astrology professionally, but out of respect for my mother's 
> >>    
> >>
> >wishes, 
> >  
> >
> >>never mentioned it to me.  So, from the beginning, my 
> >>    
> >>
> >investigation into 
> >  
> >
> >>Christianity had no theological guidance, which left me to my 
own 
> >>resources to make of it what I could. 
> >>
> >>When the Nag Hammadi codices were published in translation 
around 
> >>    
> >>
> >1970, 
> >  
> >
> >>I raced to the Bodhi Tree Bookstore and bought a copy.  I then 
> >>    
> >>
> >began 
> >  
> >
> >>reading more scholarly commentaries on Christianity, Christian 
and 
> >>Gnostic texts, beginning with Elaine Pagel's writings.  While 
all 
> >>    
> >>
> >of 
> >  
> >
> >>this was happening, I attended churches and talked casually to 
> >>    
> >>
> >ministers 
> >  
> >
> >>of various denominations. When we moved to Northern California, 
my 
> >>    
> >>
> >wife 
> >  
> >
> >>and I began attending the Unitarian Universalist Church where a 
> >>    
> >>
> >member 
> >  
> >
> >>with mainline Christian beliefs is not to be found.  
> >>
> >>So, like you I discovered that the Bible is misrepresented by a 
> >>    
> >>
> >strange 
> >  
> >
> >>theological structure, but took a very different route to end up 
> >>    
> >>
> >in the 
> >  
> >
> >>same place. When we started the Origins of Christianity class 
two 
> >>    
> >>
> >years 
> >  
> >
> >>ago, I discovered that there were a lot of barriers to 
> >>    
> >>
> >communication. 
> >  
> >
> >>Theological conditioning from years of church going was to 
blame.  
> >>    
> >>
> >One 
> >  
> >
> >>of them is as you mentioned: The Gospels read very differently 
> >>    
> >>
> >from the 
> >  
> >
> >>theological interpretations. One member or out group who was 
> >>    
> >>
> >raised in a 
> >  
> >
> >>conservative Christian home discovered this when we began 
studying 
> >>Judaism and investigating the Hebrew scriptures.
> >>
> >>Some other barriers that met with considerable resistance were:
> >>
> >>1. The Gospels were not written to be historical accounts of 
> >>    
> >>
> >Jesus' 
> >  
> >
> >>life.  Rather, they are evangelical tracts written for the 
purpose 
> >>    
> >>
> >of 
> >  
> >
> >>gaining converts and to answer the objections of critics of the 
> >>    
> >>
> >early 
> >  
> >
> >>Christians.
> >>
> >>2. One must therefore, make a distinction between the historical 
> >>    
> >>
> >Jesus, 
> >  
> >
> >>the Jesus represented in the Gospels, and the theological Jesus. 
> >>
> >>3. There were, in the beginning dozens of Christian communities 
> >>    
> >>
> >with 
> >  
> >
> >>very divergent beliefs.  Many of them had Gospels and religious 
> >>    
> >>
> >writings 
> >  
> >
> >>of their own.  Most of these writings were destroyed after 
> >>    
> >>
> >Christianity 
> >  
> >
> >>was declared the only legal religion of the empire.  That is, 
the 
> >>variety of Christianity adopted by the Emperor of Rome. 
> >>
> >>4. Since these other Christian communities, later 
> >>    
> >>
> >called "gnostics," 
> >  
> >
> >>were outlawed and their writings destroyed, we know little about 
> >>    
> >>
> >them 
> >  
> >
> >>except through a few meager texts that survived, and through the 
> >>criticisms of the canonical church fathers.  
> >>
> >>5. The members of these other Christian communities considered 
> >>themselves to be just as Christian as those belonging to the 
sect 
> >>adopted by the Emperors.
> >>
> >>6. Critical works of Christianity written by philosophers and 
> >>    
> >>
> >other 
> >  
> >
> >>learned people were systematically destroyed.  All that survives 
> >>    
> >>
> >are the 
> >  
> >
> >>reconstructed writings of Porphyry, Celsus, and the preserved 
> >>    
> >>
> >orations 
> >  
> >
> >>of the apostate Emperor Julian.  
> >>
> >>7. Because of 4 and 6, our knowledge of the earliest history of 
> >>    
> >>
> >the 
> >  
> >
> >>Christian movement is fragmentary, biased in favor of the early 
> >>    
> >>
> >Roman 
> >  
> >
> >>church, and much is left to conjecture and theological 
> >>    
> >>
> >manipulation.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  
> >
>