Theos-Talk Archives (March 2006 Message tt01384)

Cass

Vincent <vblaz2004@sbcglobal.net> wrote: Jerry-

You wrote:

  "Dear Vince,
=20
  Yes, I agree that we are in a similar boat, but got there in very=20
different ways.  The three topics that my parents never discussed in=20
front of the children were religion, politics and race.  So, I never=20
really discovered these things until I was about twelve--and then,=20
on my own.  They then became subjects of primary interest. Since I=20
had no religious instruction from home, lived in a Jewish=20
neighborhood, and attended a public school where everyone was=20
Jewish, I just half assumed that I was a Jew, like everyone else."

Hhmm, okay.  Interesting.  My mother has characteristically been=20
privately religious (believes in God, but doesn't read the Bible or=20
attend church), whereas my father has been more anti-religious=20
(can't stand Christians or the Bible).  But then the religious=20
institutions were quick to educate me in their religious agenda,=20
just so long as I'd be sincere, believing with the heart prior to=20
thinking with the mind.  Nonetheless, my questions caused me to be=20
labeled as a thinker.

  "As I entered my teens, I discovered the beatniks at Venice beach,=20
and used to hang around them.  My mother became alarmed and decided=20
that I must be becoming a "juvenile delinquent" and began to take me=20
to a very conservative Lutheran Church. That was my first formal=20
contact with Christianity. I found the services and sermons=20
curious.  Lots of mysticism about an invisible god, a ressurected=20
man, and promise of an afterlife if I believed the right things."

That's actually a little bit ironic.  My mom took my brother and I=20
to a Lutheran Church when my brother was becoming a 'delinquent'.=20=20
(I was too young at the time for delinquency.)  Years later I began=20
having metaphysical experiences (without drug usage), so I started=20
attending church on my own to learn about the supernatural.  Of=20
course, they eventually told me that my metaphysical experiences=20
were bad, and that I needed to repent of them.

  "The problem was that I didn't feel like I was damned. I=20
understood about right and wrong actions, but this idea of "sin" was=20
strange. Why should Eve's eating of an apple have anything to do=20
with me?  After all, it was she who screwed up, not me.  Soon we=20
began going to classes to learn about the religion. The notion of=20
original sin remain illogical.  I couldn't buy it."

Now me, I felt damned.  I noticed alot of crime transpiring in the=20
world around me, although I was one to keep my nose clean.  But alot=20
of people in my youth were outright criminally violent.  So I got=20
the sin part down pretty well.  Nowadays though, I feel quite a bit=20
different about sin concepts and where they originate from, but I=20
was just a preteen then.
=20
  "The Pastor spent most of his time talking about why Catholicism=20
is in error and how awful the Jew were.  One night the Pastor told=20
us that God is only now beginning to forgive the Jews for killing=20
Jesus. That was the first time I ever heard such a thing and the=20
remark deeply disturbed me. All of my friends were Jews and I didn't=20
find them awful at all. The implication I got in the Pastor's=20
remark, was that God must have been pleased with Hitler's attempted=20
extermination of the Jews."

That sounds a little bit like one of the comments that a former=20
pastor of mine made about desiring to nuke the middle-east, to=20
exterminate the races that Moses and Joshua missed during their Old=20
Testament genocide campaigns.  Except he wanted the United States to=20
carry it out, so Israel could get back the majority of the middle-
east territory like God had promised them in the Old Testament.=20=20
More pro-Jew than anti-Jew, but into USA-originated nuclear genocide=20
just the same.

  "So, other than the unfortunate encounter with the Lutheran=20
Pastor, I entered a study of Christianity with pretty much of a=20
clean slate, and began by reading, on my own, the New English Bible=20
of the NT, which had just been published for the first time.  There=20
I was delighted to discover that the three wise men were=20
called "astrologers."  That delighted me because I had recently=20
discovered that my aunt practiced astrology professionally, but out=20
of respect for my mother's wishes, never mentioned it to me.  So,=20
from the beginning, my investigation into Christianity had no=20
theological guidance, which left me to my own resources to make of=20
it what I could."

I noticed the part about the three 'magi' (mages, magicians) too.=20=20
The Bible is actually very metaphysical.
=20
  "When the Nag Hammadi codices were published in translation around=20
1970, I raced to the Bodhi Tree Bookstore and bought a copy.  I then=20
began reading more scholarly commentaries on Christianity, Christian=20
and Gnostic texts, beginning with Elaine Pagel's writings.  While=20
all of this was happening, I attended churches and talked casually=20
to ministers of various denominations. When we moved to Northern=20
California, my wife and I began attending the Unitarian Universalist=20
Church where a member with mainline Christian beliefs is not to be=20
found."

When I accumulated volumes containing a total of about 300 different=20
pseudopigraphal texts, I was strictly told that I was straying into=20
heretical texts by fundamentalist Christians.  I only discovered the=20
existence of unitarian churches this last year, but they are all a=20
half hour away from me.  I'm surrounded by Christian fundamentalist=20
megachurches where the pastoral salaries often exceed $100 grand.  A=20
congregation of 5000 people is just too small nowadays in my area.
=20
  "So, like you I discovered that the Bible is misrepresented by a=20
strange theological structure, but took a very different route to=20
end up in the same place. When we started the Origins of=20
Christianity class two years ago, I discovered that there were a lot=20
of barriers to communication. Theological conditioning from years of=20
church going was to blame.  One of them is as you mentioned: The=20
Gospels read very differently from the theological interpretations.=20
One member or out group who was raised in a conservative Christian=20
home discovered this when we began studying Judaism and=20
investigating the Hebrew scriptures."

I believe that shortcomings in present-day cultural norms distort=20
biblical interpretation quite a bit.

  "Some other barriers that met with considerable resistance were:
=20
  1. The Gospels were not written to be historical accounts of=20
Jesus' life.  Rather, they are evangelical tracts written for the=20
purpose of gaining converts and to answer the objections of critics=20
of the early Christians."

Okay, I never heard that one before.

  "2. One must therefore, make a distinction between the historical=20
Jesus, the Jesus represented in the Gospels, and the theological=20
Jesus."

I just tend to differentiate between the Jesus of the Bible and the=20
Jesus of Christian fundamentalists.  They don't seem quite the same.

  "3. There were, in the beginning dozens of Christian communities=20
with very divergent beliefs.  Many of them had Gospels and religious=20
writings of their own.  Most of these writings were destroyed after=20
Christianity was declared the only legal religion of the empire.=20=20
That is, the variety of Christianity adopted by the Emperor of Rome."

Okay, I follow.  Government definitely got heavily involved.  Very=20
political.

  "4. Since these other Christian communities, later=20
called "gnostics," were outlawed and their writings destroyed, we=20
know little about them except through a few meager texts that=20
survived, and through the criticisms of the canonical church=20
fathers."

I got labeled as a gnostic too by the fundamentalist church through=20
formal excommunication.  The funny thing though was that I was=20
actually agnostic when the church declared me to be gnostic.  Go=20
figure.

  "5. The members of these other Christian communities considered=20
themselves to be just as Christian as those belonging to the sect=20
adopted by the Emperors."

I'm sure they did.  Jesus probably fell in the same boat.

  "6. Critical works of Christianity written by philosophers and=20
other learned people were systematically destroyed.  All that=20
survives are the reconstructed writings of Porphyry, Celsus, and the=20
preserved orations of the apostate Emperor Julian."

I'm not famiiar with those.

  "7. Because of 4 and 6, our knowledge of the earliest history of=20
the Christian movement is fragmentary, biased in favor of the early=20
Roman church, and much is left to conjecture and theological=20
manipulation."

Perhaps some form of metaphysical revelation will have to suffice=20
then.  I interpret the Bible metaphysically for the most part,=20
although simultaneously aware of what the literal text says.

Vince

--- In theos-talk@yahoogroups.com, Jerry Hejka-Ekins=20=20
wrote:
>
> Dear Vince,
>=20
> Yes, I agree that we are in a similar boat, but got there in very=20
> different ways.  The three topics that my parents never discussed=20
in=20
> front of the children were religion, politics and race.  So, I=20
never=20
> really discovered these things until I was about twelve--and then,=20
on my=20
> own.  They then became subjects of primary interest. Since I had=20
no=20
> religious instruction from home, lived in a Jewish neighborhood,=20
and=20
> attended a public school where everyone was Jewish, I just half=20
assumed=20
> that I was a Jew, like everyone else.
>=20
> As I entered my teens, I discovered the beatniks at Venice beach,=20
and=20
> used to hang around them.  My mother became alarmed and decided=20
that I=20
> must be becoming a "juvenile delinquent" and began to take me to a=20
very=20
> conservative Lutheran Church. That was my first formal contact=20
with=20
> Christianity. I found the services and sermons curious.  Lots of=20
> mysticism about an invisible god, a ressurected man, and promise=20
of an=20
> afterlife if I believed the right things.  The problem was that I=20
didn't=20
> feel like I was damned. I understood about right and wrong=20
actions, but=20
> this idea of "sin" was strange. Why should Eve's eating of an=20
apple have=20
> anything to do with me?  After all, it was she who screwed up, not=20
me.=20=20
> Soon we began going to classes to learn about the religion. The=20
notion=20
> of original sin remain illogical.  I couldn't buy it.=20
>=20
> The Pastor spent most of his time talking about why Catholicism is=20
in=20
> error and how awful the Jew were.  One night the Pastor told us=20
that God=20
> is only now beginning to forgive the Jews for killing Jesus. That=20
was=20
> the first time I ever heard such a thing and the remark deeply=20
disturbed=20
> me. All of my friends were Jews and I didn't find them awful at=20
all. The=20
> implication I got in the Pastor's remark, was that God must have=20
been=20
> pleased with Hitler's attempted extermination of the Jews.=20
>=20
> So, other than the unfortunate encounter with the Lutheran Pastor,=20
I=20
> entered a study of Christianity with pretty much of a clean slate,=20
and=20
> began by reading, on my own, the New English Bible of the NT,=20
which had=20
> just been published for the first time.  There I was delighted to=20
> discover that the three wise men were called "astrologers."  That=20
> delighted me because I had recently discovered that my aunt=20
practiced=20
> astrology professionally, but out of respect for my mother's=20
wishes,=20
> never mentioned it to me.  So, from the beginning, my=20
investigation into=20
> Christianity had no theological guidance, which left me to my own=20
> resources to make of it what I could.=20
>=20
> When the Nag Hammadi codices were published in translation around=20
1970,=20
> I raced to the Bodhi Tree Bookstore and bought a copy.  I then=20
began=20
> reading more scholarly commentaries on Christianity, Christian and=20
> Gnostic texts, beginning with Elaine Pagel's writings.  While all=20
of=20
> this was happening, I attended churches and talked casually to=20
ministers=20
> of various denominations. When we moved to Northern California, my=20
wife=20
> and I began attending the Unitarian Universalist Church where a=20
member=20
> with mainline Christian beliefs is not to be found.=20=20
>=20
> So, like you I discovered that the Bible is misrepresented by a=20
strange=20
> theological structure, but took a very different route to end up=20
in the=20
> same place. When we started the Origins of Christianity class two=20
years=20
> ago, I discovered that there were a lot of barriers to=20
communication.=20
> Theological conditioning from years of church going was to blame.=20=20
One=20
> of them is as you mentioned: The Gospels read very differently=20
from the=20
> theological interpretations. One member or out group who was=20
raised in a=20
> conservative Christian home discovered this when we began studying=20
> Judaism and investigating the Hebrew scriptures.
>=20
> Some other barriers that met with considerable resistance were:
>=20
> 1. The Gospels were not written to be historical accounts of=20
Jesus'=20
> life.  Rather, they are evangelical tracts written for the purpose=20
of=20
> gaining converts and to answer the objections of critics of the=20
early=20
> Christians.
>=20
> 2. One must therefore, make a distinction between the historical=20
Jesus,=20
> the Jesus represented in the Gospels, and the theological Jesus.=20
>=20
> 3. There were, in the beginning dozens of Christian communities=20
with=20
> very divergent beliefs.  Many of them had Gospels and religious=20
writings=20
> of their own.  Most of these writings were destroyed after=20
Christianity=20
> was declared the only legal religion of the empire.  That is, the=20
> variety of Christianity adopted by the Emperor of Rome.=20
>=20
> 4. Since these other Christian communities, later=20
called "gnostics,"=20
> were outlawed and their writings destroyed, we know little about=20
them=20
> except through a few meager texts that survived, and through the=20
> criticisms of the canonical church fathers.=20=20
>=20
> 5. The members of these other Christian communities considered=20
> themselves to be just as Christian as those belonging to the sect=20
> adopted by the Emperors.
>=20
> 6. Critical works of Christianity written by philosophers and=20
other=20
> learned people were systematically destroyed.  All that survives=20
are the=20
> reconstructed writings of Porphyry, Celsus, and the preserved=20
orations=20
> of the apostate Emperor Julian.=20=20
>=20
> 7. Because of 4 and 6, our knowledge of the earliest history of=20
the=20
> Christian movement is fragmentary, biased in favor of the early=20
Roman=20
> church, and much is left to conjecture and theological=20
manipulation.





=20
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