Theos-Talk Archives (March 2006 Message tt01309)

You asked me to address your question.  I will, but I have to take the 
long way around.  So please be patient.  In the end, I think you will 
see why I answered in this way:

The problem lies in our lack of understanding of late classical Greek 
literature.   The Greeks had no problem distinguishing between 
Herodotus' histories and Homer's Odyssey.  The former was an account of 
what Herodotus saw and accounts of wars he recorded. The latter is a 
hero's journey of a man who becomes a god.  To put it another way, 
Aristotle, in his "Poetics" distinguished between "logos" and "mythos."  
Logos represents the bare information, while the mythos gives it 
meaning.  Where is the truth that has real meaning?  It is in the 
mythos.  So, even though the Odyssey is a fictional work, it represents 
deeper truths.  For the ancient Greeks, spiritual truth was transmitted 
by Bards through the telling of sacred stories--what we today call 
myths.  Today, our Christian culture has taught us to regard myths as 
lies, as false stories.  For the Greeks, they once represented exactly 
the opposite. 
So the logos of the Jesus story might be: A man was born.  He became a 
Rabbi.  He died.

The mythos goes like this: There was a man, the only begotten son of 
god, born of a virgin, and descended from the house of David.  He 
ministered and healed people for a year and was crucified on a cross so 
that all who believes in him will be saved. 
All of those mythic elements had deep meaning to the Greeks:

Son of god, as was Heracles and Asclepius.
Born of a virgin: As were all of god's heroes.
Descended from the House of David:  A reference to Judaism, so that he 
can have hereditary claim to kingship (Messiah).
Ministered and healed: Because heroes are wise or healers or both.  The 
great god or god-men healers of the time included Asclepius and Serapis.
For a year: representing the course of the sun god Apollo, whom Jesus 
was identified in the early church.
Crucified on the cross: The cross was a Greek and Roman solar symbol 
before it was taken over by the Christians.
So that all who believes in him will be saved: The original theological 
teaching of the early Christians.

Other mythical elements include:
He turned water into wine: An allusion to Bacchus, who did the same.
Rode into Jerusalem on the foal of a ass, or on a Colt: another allusion 
to Bacchus.
Walked on water: allusion to Neptune.
Healed the sick, made the blind see: Allusion to Asclepius and Serapis.

So where is the historical Jesus? He is neither in the mythos nor the 
logos.   "Historical" originally derived from the Greek and denoted 
inquiry.   Therefore, to find the historical Jesus, we have to look 
outside of the myth find accounts.  Unfortunately, there aren't any.  
The Josephus account has been proven to be a Christian interpolation.  
Tacitus' account of Nero blaming and persecuting the Christians for the 
burning of Rome is very likely a later addition.  Philo the Jew was a 
contemporary of the Biblical Jesus but does not mention a Jesus nor the 
Jewish-Christians, though he thoroughly accounts for every Jewish sect. 
The Roman have no record of him. 
So, it is from this way of viewing things that HPB can express doubt 
about the historicity of the person in the gospel accounts.  She never 
says that the historical Jesus did not exist. She only says, truthfully, 
that we honestly don't know anything for sure about him, even if he did 
in fact exist.  So, she is leaving it open to the interpretation that 
the Biblical Jesus is no more or less historical than the Heracles and 
Asclepius of myth.  I have an old Roman coin here with a bust of Nero on 
the obverse and a depiction of Heracles on the reverse.  The inscription 
on the reverse says: HERAKLES SOTER: Heracles, Savior. 
There are a lot of historical people who have been proposed as a model 
upon which the Jesus story evolved.  Apollonius is one of them.  The 
Jesus story could have been formulated upon distant memories of several 
people and events.   We just don't know. 
What we do know is that in literary style, the Gospel stories have all 
the literary trappings of Greek myth. 
Hope this helps.

Best wishes,
Jerry









Cass Silva wrote:

> Dear Morten and all
> I am confused about Jesus.  HPB places Jesus as a historical fact, yet also says, if he in fact existed?  A Rosicrucian friend of mind believes that Apollonius of Tyana was the true world teacher, and believes that Jesus, the Carpenter is a fiction of the gnostics.
>
> Cass
>
> "M. Sufilight" <global-theosophy@stofanet.dk> wrote: Hallo Vince and all,
>
> My views are:
>
>
> There are the Seekers questions about spiritual or esoterical matters.
> These question are in fact not always easily answered.
> One reason being that Truth as such about such matters have to be experienced on a higher level
> rather than digested by ordinary intellect or by emotional reactions.
>
> It from time to time happens, that the Seeker somehow finds himself or herself to WANT to
> know about something.
> And another issue is what the Seeker actually esoterically NEED to know about.
> Sometimes there is a big difference there.
> Ignorance about what one actually Needs to know about
> when viewed from an high spiritual or esoterical level is
> a problem the Seekers often faces.
>
> Questions which for instance request, that one answers by giving more than 64.000
> examples of the faults in the Bible - are perhaps not that important.
> And yet it might be so.
> Now, if I was a master, I could most certainly create a rather huge email or a number of emails
> showing the more than 64.000 faults in the Bible. The question is also, whether
> i would do that, if there was a different and more important
> need to attend to.
>
> Some of the faults have been written about by Blavatsky herself.
> I have personally never read a book showing all the faults. 
> It is also important, that The Liberal Catholic Church (LCC) or TS Adyar have never created 
> an official scripture showing that. They completely seem to ignore this important fact.
> One shall know people on their fruits. But, perhaps the famous author Dan Brown is 
> planning a book on this, who knows. :-)
> Actually such a book could be a devastating blow to the most narrowminded of the Catholic's 
> and other similar creeds. Truth has always been a difficult task to the 
> Church of Rome it seems.
>
> If you really think that you NEED to know about all these faults.
> You could search the Internet, or elsewhere.
> Perhaps Dallas or others connected to Blavatskt.net have more to
> offer you on this than I am at the moment.
>
> If I only had 1-2.000 faults to write down.
> I would publish a book about it - or perhaps offer the script to Dan Brown.
> Just to see, what would happen. :-)
>
> I think, that some of the scholars with a theosophical or esoterical leaning
> could easily find 1-2.000 faults.
>
> Here is one of the more wellknown faults.
> Try this:
> The Secret Doctrine, Vol. 3. 
> http://www.theosophical.ca/SecDoctrine3B.htm ( Page 199)
> Not everyone accept this volumes content though. 
> Try original THE SECRET DOCTRINE on more information:
> http://www.phx-ult-lodge.org/SDVolume2.htm 
> (This is the Original online version. Although it is Without the Cover.)
>
> - - - - - - -
> A Greek Orthodox, and Evangelical, and a Jesuit are doing an archeological dig in Jerusalem. They come across a Tomb that says, in Latin, Greek, and Hebrew, "Here lies Jesus of Nazareth, who claimed he was King of the Jews, and was executed at Passover under Pontius Pilate".
>
> Excited by the find, they open the tomb, only to be horrified to find a crucified body.
>
> "Oh my goodness," says the Orthodox. "The Church and all the good it does is based on a false event."
>
> "Oh my goodness," says the Evangelical. "The Bible, which has guided by entire life, is nothing but a lie."
>
> "Oh my goodness," says the Jesuit. "There really was a Jesus."
>
>
>
>
> from
> M. Sufilight with peace and love...
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